Following the Bastion/Mcree whinefest, lets talk Widowmaker

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

It's less that Widow herself is OP, and more that she's harder to deal with on PC and in higher play levels because of how irritatingly accurate she can be. But otherwise it's the same issue with her as it would be with Hanzo, Torb or Bastion: If your team is defending you well enough, then you become a nightmare. If the team is neglecting you, then you become a sitting duck

No, no it's not. Stop saying that.

Quick-scoping, mine that not only poisons but warns when someone is coming the often only route to her position, team-wide vision with no warning, scales exponentially with the right composition, basically near impossible at times to kill without having a counter sniper(primarily WM herself); these are issues when stacked with her damage and rapid rate of fire. The first should never even be a possibility. She should HAVE to setup a bit for each shot through the scope because otherwise, why the hell does she have an AR variant? It's overkill.

Bastion is laughably easy to counter to the point I've gotten to where I look forward to seeing him on the enemy team. Hanzo, while a PITA, isn't nowhere near capable of the god-like levels that WM has a tendency get to. She basically shits all over him when you begin to stack them against one another. So on and so forth. The only comparison there worth any merit is Hanzo and even then, he falls far too short of such a call-out.

[Daedius]

If anything I'd prefer if her ulti was changed from seeing everything to detecting motion.

Bad enough there's the aim bot user Soldier 76, we don't need a wall hack too! :P

[Noxina]

I got a feeling that most people that got an issue with Widowmaker, are people that are not used to FPS gaming. Just don't run like a moron out in open terrain if you know a headshot can kill you. Sit behind Reinhardt shield and shot the woman down from her high ground, as she is rarely behind a shield. Play as a team and she really isn't too hard to deal with.

The Bastion debate is silly, he is shit, total utter garbage. I use him on some maps, but pretty much swap at my first death, as they then know they just have to pick Tracer, McCree, Reaper, Genji or what ever really and kill me over and over again. He is good as a shield breaker early on, so you get a minute or two off the clock, but after that as the game progress he is just too... shit to deal with anything else than sitting around a corner and wait for them to come around and hope you don't just get flanked as they know exactly were you will be sitting.

McCree on the other hand, I played a lot of of before. But he is just stupid at the moment, E - Right click - GG. I don't even find him that fun anymore, it doesn't feel satisfying to do well with him, because it is just too easy to do. I hope they reduce the damage of his spree, or something. Not sure how to nerf him without making him 100% useless.

Junkrat can be decent, he can block of a passage with his auto shots, and his ult is decent if you combine it with something else (now everyone should know that a bullet or two in that wheel and its dead). Had a game today vs a Junkrat and Yarya, she ulted 4 of us then he just dropped the tire on top of that and blew us all up - Play of the Game. But you can do that with Tracer as well, but easier.
I love Junkrat, but would never put him in the OP category at all, a Junkrat in the right hands can be devestating, but so can a good Lucio.

Soldier 76 now.. That is the one hero I don't mind stacking on my team tbh. He is deadly, he can heal a ton if used right and his ult compared with for instance, Reinhardt ult is so devestating, it is even very devestating alone. If you haven't really tried him yet, I'd say go for it! I kinda refused to play him in the start, because he looks boring. But he is rather fun from a FPS perspective.

[AeneasBK]

I like how we're assuming now who will be OP and not rather than looking at the current evidence, which vastly points towards WM as a current problem and a rapidly growing one at that. No, instead, we're going to focus on Junkrat that tends to have a fairly underwhelming presence currently on the assumption that he'll suddenly hit "god mode" at some point due to... corners is it? That's one hell of a super power. Corner camping. Gosh. It's almost as if you can't simply move around him. Have you met Symmetra yet?

Who said anything about camping? Whut.

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

Who said anything about camping? Whut.

That's what it sounded like. :P That you're upset he can camp a corner effectively because he can spam grenades around it.

I mean don't get me wrong, he's a good hero, he's just not anywhere near WM and McCree levels of bullshittery.

- - - Updated - - -

I got a feeling that most people that got an issue with Widowmaker, are people that are not used to FPS gaming. Just don't run like a moron out in open terrain if you know a headshot can kill you. Sit behind Reinhardt shield and shot the woman down from her high ground, as she is rarely behind a shield. Play as a team and she really isn't too hard to deal with.

The Bastion debate is silly, he is shit, total utter garbage. I use him on some maps, but pretty much swap at my first death, as they then know they just have to pick Tracer, McCree, Reaper, Genji or what ever really and kill me over and over again. He is good as a shield breaker early on, so you get a minute or two off the clock, but after that as the game progress he is just too... shit to deal with anything else than sitting around a corner and wait for them to come around and hope you don't just get flanked as they know exactly were you will be sitting.

McCree on the other hand, I played a lot of of before. But he is just stupid at the moment, E - Right click - GG. I don't even find him that fun anymore, it doesn't feel satisfying to do well with him, because it is just too easy to do. I hope they reduce the damage of his spree, or something. Not sure how to nerf him without making him 100% useless.

Junkrat can be decent, he can block of a passage with his auto shots, and his ult is decent if you combine it with something else (now everyone should know that a bullet or two in that wheel and its dead). Had a game today vs a Junkrat and Yarya, she ulted 4 of us then he just dropped the tire on top of that and blew us all up - Play of the Game. But you can do that with Tracer as well, but easier.
I love Junkrat, but would never put him in the OP category at all, a Junkrat in the right hands can be devestating, but so can a good Lucio.

Soldier 76 now.. That is the one hero I don't mind stacking on my team tbh. He is deadly, he can heal a ton if used right and his ult compared with for instance, Reinhardt ult is so devestating, it is even very devestating alone. If you haven't really tried him yet, I'd say go for it! I kinda refused to play him in the start, because he looks boring. But he is rather fun from a FPS perspective.

Er... I've been FPS'ing since the original DOOM game. I've played just about every Counter-Strike, Battlefield, CoD, Halo, etc. I'm very familiar with snipers.

Widow's current design is over-tuned, severely. This isn't CoD where you can get picked off across the field by an SMG within a hot second. Takes some work to take out a target, several yards away, high on up, that often has vision(without you knowing) and can often tell when you're coming with good placement of her spider.

Her kit makes it to where unless you outright surprise her, she'll probably get away from you. That's not good either. Again, this is before we even get to what compositions can do for her and how she gets even more ridiculous with a proper team or even just a Mercy backing her.

76 gets shit on by CQC or snipers. He's a middle-ground.

[AeneasBK]

That's what it sounded like. :P That you're upset he can camp a corner effectively because he can spam grenades around it.

I mean don't get me wrong, he's a good hero, he's just not anywhere near WM and McCree levels of bullshittery.

No, I'm just talking when JR's know the maps well enough to be landing grenades in the entrance paths to objectives (such as Nepal/Lijang etc.) every time, while both teams are on the go; or just generally en route to payloads from the respawns and such like. Attacking before the enemy can even get into sight I agree that I haven't been facing good WMs most of the time; but I often play Pharah and just knock them around before advancing and that is usually enough to throw them off

[Xyonai]

No, no it's not. Stop saying that.

Quick-scoping, mine that not only poisons but warns when someone is coming the often only route to her position, team-wide vision with no warning, scales exponentially with the right composition, basically near impossible at times to kill without having a counter sniper(primarily WM herself); these are issues when stacked with her damage and rapid rate of fire. The first should never even be a possibility. She should HAVE to setup a bit for each shot through the scope because otherwise, why the hell does she have an AR variant? It's overkill..

So the issue then is that Widow scales too well with better players, which isn't something you can easily fix without making her useless in the hands of newer players. Honestly, the only nerf I could see being somewhat reasonable is rate of fire (How they balanced Snipers in TF2) or charge rate. The Assault Rifle could also get some looking at, but the Mine and the Rope thing I don't have qualms about because they seem fine and fit her kit.

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

So the issue then is that Widow scales too well with better players, which isn't something you can easily fix without making her useless in the hands of newer players. Honestly, the only nerf I could see being somewhat reasonable is rate of fire (How they balanced Snipers in TF2) or charge rate. The Assault Rifle could also get some looking at, but the Mine and the Rope thing I don't have qualms about because they seem fine and fit her kit.

Personally, I think Blizzard was foolish to introduce WM in the first place. We really didn't need a stereotypical sniper archetype IMHO because it tends to lead towards these sort of problems. See just about every FPS that has ever existed. e.e;

That said, doing something about her ult and the ability to quick-scope would be an excellent start without completely ruining her.

[Deleted]

My only issue with WM is the fact that the game runs at 60 ticks....

She has sniped me while I was CLEARLY behind a wall and out of her LoS.

She also actually has a little bit of a built-in autoaim to make it easier for headshots.

If anything I would say they should just slow the charge rate on her scoping a tad, as it is damn quick allowing her to nearly rapid fire full charged shots. Other than that she is fine.

Well I agree on most of this, althogh I don't really think it's an auto-aim but just a general problem with hit boxes, to which also Hanzo benefit greatly. Possibly would be nice to see it toned down a bit to actually have some people aim a little more accurately.

The 20 ticks thing of Quick Games is definately a problem yes. Once I died as Mccree after I rolled inside a room to LoS her. No lag involved but on my screen I rolled inside near our Lucio with the animation fully completed, yet on the kill cam I was still outside. EDIT: reading through other threads it appeares that it's the client side who is locked to 20 ticks, so I was actually dead already even if I rolled into the room. It's fair enough but it kinda felt underwhelming. Also because I was pretty sure WM was not peaking out of her nest when I rolled.

Funny anecdote of yesterday, I got killed by a Widowmaker while on RH by being shot in the Hammer . I was low health because of the on going fight, but hell that was somewhat hard to digest. Dunno what the hell was on there but clearly I am seeing some weird kills at times. And no my latency is not the problem.

[Lorianus]

Im just baffled by the fact that they thought a sniper hero with hitscan is a good idea, if her bullets would have traveltime, bulletdrop, and her scope would sway and would be distracted by incoming fire it would be way more satisfying for her enemys but ultimatly also for the player behind her.

[Morae]

I present more evidence. This is not even apparently a pro widowmaker.

[Naxere]

For every 1 good Widowmaker, I run into 10 bad ones (usually on my team).

[Lorianus]

I present more evidence. This is not even apparently a pro widowmaker.

Maybe im blind or something but some of the shots he landed in that video should have been near misses, either its lag or the hitboxes are just way way too big.

[Deleted]

Widowmaker is just at typical sniper imo - she just reminds me of a good AWP'r....I think she's fine. Maybe her Assault Fire mode could be a burst-fire mode...only thing I can think of....The only character(s) right now that I see are really problematic are Junkrat and Tracer...I think both are way too strong and they have no weaknesses

if you listen to pretty much any pro player right now, they all say WM is op and will need nerfing.

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

Maybe im blind or something but some of the shots he landed in that video should have been near misses, either its lag or the hitboxes are just way way too big.

Game is very forgiving.

I hardly play Hanzo and I just had a game where I completely turned it around as him, while going up against a Pharah and another Hanzo. I've done similarly with Widowmaker who I am even worse with. I've never been a pro, no-scope, yadda-yadda sniper in just about any game. I tend to prefer the oddball stuff. Like in CoD I would main knives, desert eagles, etc.

WM currently has just too good of a kit that scales almost endlessly with skill; hence why I've said before that the divide between a bad and okay WM is vast, an okay and good WM, a canyon, and a good versus expert player? Like watching God show Jesus how he gets the job done.

She's definitely broke. Why we're even arguing this still baffles me. Then stack her with a team built around complimenting their WM and it's laughably horrible.

[Lorianus]

Game is very forgiving.

I hardly play Hanzo and I just had a game where I completely turned it around as him, while going up against a Pharah and another Hanzo. I've done similarly with Widowmaker who I am even worse with. I've never been a pro, no-scope, yadda-yadda sniper in just about any game. I tend to prefer the oddball stuff. Like in CoD I would main knives, desert eagles, etc.

WM currently has just too good of a kit that scales almost endlessly with skill; hence why I've said before that the divide between a bad and okay WM is vast, an okay and good WM, a canyon, and a good versus expert player? Like watching God show Jesus how he gets the job done.

She's definitely broke. Why we're even arguing this still baffles me. Then stack her with a team built around complimenting their WM and it's laughably horrible.

Maybe they should treat her weapon more like a DMR, her rate of fire of fully charged shots is way absurd and just screams to spam body shots instead of trying to get better for headshots.

What i mean with that is dmg tuning so that the 150 hp heroes would also need 2 shots.

[Deleted]

Maybe im blind or something but some of the shots he landed in that video should have been near misses, either its lag or the hitboxes are just way way too big.

combination of both. Server tickrate does not help, but yeah, the hit boxes bear little actual correlation with hero models. The head shot areas are stupidly large.

[Rudol Von Stroheim]

Maybe they should treat her weapon more like a DMR, her rate of fire of fully charged shots is way absurd and just screams to spam body shots instead of trying to get better for headshots.

What i mean with that is dmg tuning so that the 150 hp heroes would also need 2 shots.

Just imagine people who do get headshots down.

[Jessicka]

Looking at those videos, it really looks like somethings off with the aiming, there is no way I can be that slack on it any get away with it like that. Also, there's reactions there like they're on fucking speed or something.

[Lorianus]

Just imagine people who do get headshots down.

Well thats how it should be, she as every hero should be very rewarding when you know what your doing but as she is now its just absurd, its like the battle pickup anti material rifle from bf4, just that she spawns with it everytime, or the rail gun from the final stand dlc as a better example.