[Legion] Discipline Priest Discussion

[Deleted]

IMO the Atonement buffing gameplay is extremely interesting. There are enough typical healers. Might as well go Holy for that.

Being competitive is about tuning, not the system.

[Nolifer]

Fundamentally I disagree with the direction their are going with Discipline, particularly defining it as an Atonement healing specialization since I can't see it ever being 'balanced' in different aspects of the game with completely different gameplay, especially with the current iteration of it in Legion where your healing is increased by substantial amounts depending on how many targets you have Atonement on.

Saying being competitive is about tuning and not the system just isn't correct, increasing the healing from atonement to help Disc in PvP and 5-man content would have a massive impact on raid healing where it might not be needed. Another part of this is that Atonement healing can't be strong enough to the point where Discipline is easily able to heal trough all damage like other healers in PvP or Mythic+ while contributing substantially to the damage done as well, it would make all other healers lackluster. And that's exactly what you see in arena and Mythic+, the healing for the most part just isn't good enough since Atonement is realistically balanced around raiding and fundamentally can't be as good in 5-man content as it would be the obvious what healer you should bring.

In Mythic+ it somehow works due to the nature of PvE being predictable and Shadowmend being able to be spammed if needed, but in arena you just roll over as Atonement is your main healing mode and you realistically won't be able to spam Shadowmend, particularly in a scenario with multiple targets on you where you effectively will do no relevant healing. But then again, having tested 4 of the 5 healing specs both as the healer and in groups with other healers, the general consensus among people seem to be you don't bring a Discipline Priest for Mythic+. It can work, but it will work better with any other healing spec.

How I would like mixed DPS/healing to look like? Like it was in WotLK, strong damage if needed that did not impact your healing, but rather was just there as the class fantasy of being the aggressive healing specialization, e.g if you really want to go all out on damage you can, but it would have a negative impact on your healing total.

[Rilas13]

I think they have done a fine job of balancing it. It is naturally balanced by atonement's timer. Through diligent testing of other people we have seen that the sweet spot is somewhere between 8-11 atonements out at a time. When you try to have more then that, you loose healing because you can't damage enough. That buff is a fantastic equalizer. And since they have a few special tools, they don't need to make them overly strong in smaller groups. Smites hidden absorb, and PW:S are great for tank healing. If you were only to ever put up atonement without using your other tools for the tank, it would be a mistake.

I haven't gotten to Mythic+ yet with my Priest. I can't comment based on experience. But with how it has performed with everything else, I think it is an assumption for the sky is falling crowd. As long as you are geared for it, I have no reason to think it won't work on the higher end if it worked on the lower end. I haven't seen any specific evidence that Disc doesn't work. I have seen plenty of evidence that people don't pick it up right away. There is a definitive flow to how it plays, and it takes a little while to get a hold of. When I first logged in I got it to the Gold healing in Proving grounds before entering a dungeon out of fear of just wiping the group over and over. Took me awhile to get used to it and get gold, but it very much does work.

If your plan of a DPS/Healer that was the case then you aren't really a DPS/healing spec. You are a healing spec that puts out more dps in your downtime then other healers because reasons. Why would you ever pick other healers rather than this one? Your best healing being tied to the damage is the best part IMO.
I think this is the best flavor of Disc we have seen. I never liked absorbs though so I am biased.

[Totaltotemic]

But then again, having tested 4 of the 5 healing specs both as the healer and in groups with other healers, the general consensus among people seem to be you don't bring a Discipline Priest for Mythic+. It can work, but it will work better with any other healing spec.

Interesting. So apparently your entire opinion is based on something that is functionally impossible? How exactly would you have tested FOUR of the SIX healing specs in Mythic+ in any kind of accurate gear for that content?

I see. It's very easy to make blanket statements about whether things possibly can or cannot work if you back it up with complete and total fabrications.

[Melchey]

How I would like mixed DPS/healing to look like? Like it was in WotLK, strong damage if needed that did not impact your healing, but rather was just there as the class fantasy of being the aggressive healing specialization, e.g if you really want to go all out on damage you can, but it would have a negative impact on your healing total.

Lol. "class fantasy" in LK xDDD

[Totaltotemic]

Lol. "class fantasy" in LK xDDD

Not to mention that anyone that supposedly has a lot of experience with Legion would surely know that the idea that you can stop healing and do decent DPS at any given time applies to every healing spec in Legion...

[Deleted]

Ok Disc is making my head spin a little and I'm obviously behind on the changes so can someone fill me in;

What is the balance of atonement/hard healing like? Are we looking like we're going to be hard healing mostly with atonement thrown in during downtime or have they focused mostly on atonement with hard healing as the side-salad?

Is it looking like damage/healing hybrid or are we up there with full healers?

Any experience with pvp? I could see atonement healing being an issue

[Yunzi]

It hasn't be said for many months on this forum, so it bears refreshing - Legion Disc is a HoT healer. Atonement is a 15 or 17 second HoT with an immediate direct healing component. Unlike all other HoTs in the game though, the size of Disc's HoT is not defined by the initial cast - the player can receive more or less healing at any point during his atonement in a manner controlled by the healer, not defined by the original spell itself.

Compare Disc's healing to the most similar other spec - Resto Druid. A Rejuvenation applies a consistent amount of healing over time, and a second (or 3rd+) HoT can be added to the same player for an additional amount of consistent healing added to the first. While Wild Growth doesn't do consistent healing over time it does entirely predictable healing.

Disc has much more control over when a given player is healed - if the existing atoned players are in bad shape he can do damage to heal them or he can keep atoning players if the existing atoned players are healthy. This is similar to the healing style of other healing specs - Holy Priests for example Renew spam (apply "atonements") when the group is healthy and do direct healing (single or aoe) when players need more immediate healing.

What's not often noted about Disc relative to other healers is that so much of it's toolkit is HoT (atonement). Here's the comparison of the entire toolkit of non-HoT heals for Disc with the other pre-eminent HoT healer, the Resto Druid:

Disc toolkit:

Penance (only if The Penitent talent is selected)
Clarity of Will (only if Clarity of Will talent is selected)
Shadow Covenant (only if Shadow Covenant talent is selected)

So 3 spells, all of which are talents. There's no way to non-HoT heal through the base Disc toolkit. Now for Resto Druids:

Ysera's Gift (albeit very small)
Swiftmend
Healing Touch
Renewal (talent, self only)

Even though Druids are still called the "HoT spec", R Druids have two non-HoT active spells in their base toolkit while Disc has zero.

This, probably more so than the user interface issues of targeting both enemies and raid frames, is what makes Disc both powerful and complex. It relies almost entirely on HoTs where the amount healed over time is controlled by the Disc rather than defined by the initial cast.

[toolsv]

That's insane.

[Yunzi]

Ok Disc is making my head spin a little and I'm obviously behind on the changes so can someone fill me in;

What is the balance of atonement/hard healing like? Are we looking like we're going to be hard healing mostly with atonement thrown in during downtime or have they focused mostly on atonement with hard healing as the side-salad?

It's possible to non-atonement heal - Shadow Covenant is a powerful 5-player heal while Clarity of Will and Penance (The Penitented) are good single-target heals. The HPS output of just those three spells should be reasonable, but that raises the question of why the healer isn't playing another spec if he doesn't want to atonement heal.

For the most part as mentioned above, Disc is a "soft healer" (in your terms) - he applies a 15 or 17 second HoT and then heals that player to varying degrees over the course of the HoT.

[Totaltotemic]

Ok Disc is making my head spin a little and I'm obviously behind on the changes so can someone fill me in;

What is the balance of atonement/hard healing like?

In dungeons, around 50% of healing is from Atonement. In raids, it jumps up to ~70%.

Are we looking like we're going to be hard healing mostly with atonement thrown in during downtime or have they focused mostly on atonement with hard healing as the side-salad?

Purely healing spells are either cooldowns or emergencies. Shadow Mend applies Atonement, but it's the closest thing to an emergency heal the spec has baseline. Shadow Covenant is also an emergency heal and does not interact with Atonement whatsoever. Both of these spells do very high throughput, but are also very expensive. Atonement healing is the normal, default answer to damage while spamming direct heals is only in case of emergency.

Is it looking like damage/healing hybrid or are we up there with full healers?

The healing is not penalized for having a damage component, however it is much harder to get maximum healing out of Disc just because as Yunzi said, the spec is essentially a HoT healer which gets quite complex and difficult to figure out how exactly to get the most healing done. Disc generally does less than other healers at low skill levels and its healing rises rapidly as you become accustomed to the new playstyle and get familiar with fight mechanics.

Any experience with pvp? I could see atonement healing being an issue

I don't PvP but yeah this is probably a pretty big issue. The damage might be relevant enough to balance it out.

[Rilas13]

It's possible to non-atonement heal - Shadow Covenant is a powerful 5-player heal while Clarity of Will and Penance (The Penitented) are good single-target heals. The HPS output of just those three spells should be reasonable, but that raises the question of why the healer isn't playing another spec if he doesn't want to atonement heal.

For the most part as mentioned above, Disc is a "soft healer" (in your terms) - he applies a 15 or 17 second HoT and then heals that player to varying degrees over the course of the HoT.

Its worth noting here that the priests I have seen refuse to use the atonement mechanic(so get all of the direct healing talents) have not gotten me through the instance. They get stressed, cant put out the healing, and call the spec broken. I'm not flatly saying it can't be done, but I actually think it would be me difficult to do so then learn to use atonement properly. Disc just isn't designed to ignore atonement, and if you try to its a mess. Using the other tools like Grace or Shadow Covenant are just enhancing your weak area of the spec which is the immediate reactive side if fast damage comes in and needs to be taken care of. It isn't a good moderate damage solution in my experience.

TL;DR: If you are trying to Disc without using atonement, your gonna have a bad time.

If you are using Disc with atonement well managed, it feels incredibly strong. Your toolkit in the right hands, assists with dpsing mobs, and can heal everyone in your group from near death to full very quickly and efficiently. Light's Wrath is IMO the best spell to come into the game in a very long time.

[Saiyoran]

Was there some kind of hidden change to Light Overload? Before I would get one when questing maybe once in 30 minutes if that, now I'm getting almost 2 per dungeon run in the normals I'm spamming. It's at the point where I can depend on it being up by the last boss if not before and plan for that. Wondering if it'll remain enabled in Mythic dungeons, as its a pretty neat major burst CD to have for a last boss. When it crits, it's absolutely massive damage.

EDIT: Also, I know the mechanic was based off getting 150 stacks of a buff before it would activate, and that buff was hidden from the buff bar a few builds back. Is there some way to track it in game with a Weakaura or something, that would make it easier to predict. I understand the intent is probably to balance around it not being regularly available, but still having it pop up right after you cast a Light's Wrath on the last boss of an instance is really disappointing (this happened a few times when I'd get a Light Overload right at the start of an instance, and wouldn't know whether I would get it or not for the last boss, as it seems to vary a bit between getting 2 in a dungeon or 1 just before the last few pulls). On the bright side, it no longer fades on zone change, so that could be contributing to it being up more often.

[TirielWoW]

Its worth noting here that the priests I have seen refuse to use the atonement mechanic(so get all of the direct healing talents) have not gotten me through the instance. They get stressed, cant put out the healing, and call the spec broken. I'm not flatly saying it can't be done, but I actually think it would be me difficult to do so then learn to use atonement properly. Disc just isn't designed to ignore atonement, and if you try to its a mess. Using the other tools like Grace or Shadow Covenant are just enhancing your weak area of the spec which is the immediate reactive side if fast damage comes in and needs to be taken care of. It isn't a good moderate damage solution in my experience.

TL;DR: If you are trying to Disc without using atonement, your gonna have a bad time.

If you are using Disc with atonement well managed, it feels incredibly strong. Your toolkit in the right hands, assists with dpsing mobs, and can heal everyone in your group from near death to full very quickly and efficiently. Light's Wrath is IMO the best spell to come into the game in a very long time.

The problem with going all healing talents and refusing to atonement is that you're going to go OOM so hard it's not even funny, and you won't really have the necessary tools to keep the group alive.

[deviantcultist]

Why bash Atonement? Why cannot people accept Discipline as something individual and cling to a homogenized shield-based variation of Holy?

I sincerely hope the testers give them some nice feedback for them to keep it up and not give in to the haters. The spec has taken a very interesting direction and Blizz should aim to support it all the way through.

[Deleted]

So I didn't read all 66 pages of this thread, but I did the last three pages and all their replies, particularly this last page (66) had some some nice explanations to it and the general flow. Can I get a confirm / deny to any of these please?

• Disc priests are fully dedicated (high performing, finely tuned) healers. They can do a healing job as well as any other class (if played in any certain way)
• The best way to bring them to full performance is through atonement healing (healing through damage).
• The complexity involved in playing the class doesn't reward the player by making them overpowered healers, but by simply adding extra damage on top.
• Direct healing is an in-between to supplement and assist the primary atonement healing mechanic
• Gameplay wise, disc priests will during mid combat find themselves weaving in and out of atonements (apply atonement, cast an offensive spell, apply atonement, cast offensive spell etc).
  
  I'm thinking this based on the borrowed time 15% haste from artifact, and the fact that with more atonements we do 1% more dmg per, and some other skills like Light's Wrath scales with atonement quantities.
• The back and forth between atonement application and damage delivery is intended to be a bit jarring (for example no "proccable" by dmg plea which allows priest to apply/refresh atonement on someone off the GCD, but rather having to dedicate an entire spell to refresh an atonement, one at a time unless using Radiance).
  
  This means that atonement upkeep will be this "constantly losing" battle disc priests have to keep at. There currently isn't any "oh yeah" moments were discs get to take a shortcut and see some of those atonements nicely managed. This also means our total atonements are capped by how many GCDs we have since the very first atonement we applied, and no procs can increase that.
• The above jarring stop damage, start upkeep, resume damage cannot be avoided and is core to the discipline priests' way of performing.

I'm very interested in disc, and some of the above points are the reason I'm interested in, but the lack of procced / flowing gameplay is making me hesitate a bit. I last healed back in Wrath, using a disc priest, and it was the reason I stopped, since it felt mind numbingly boring. Now it feels like the exact opposite, but I'd like to see not only a complex and involved rotation, but a rewarding and good-feeling spec which may at times surprise me with some potential procs here and there. I might have it all wrong, appreciate any advice by those in the beta who were able to get some hands on with the class, no matter the content (my focus is pve raiding however).

Thanks!

[Melchey]

[*] Disc priests are fully dedicated (high performing, finely tuned) healers. They can do a healing job as well as any other class (if played in any certain way

Yes, raid tests have shown discs doing pretty damn well, but there's been adjustments/bug fixes to every healer since then. You'll find people complaining about their 5 man performance the most, but disc has been able to clear at least mythic+ 6 if not higher.

[*] The best way to bring them to full performance is through atonement healing (healing through damage).

Yes, though it wouldn't be surprising to see shadow covenant specs perform well under certain scenarios.

[*] The complexity involved in playing the class doesn't reward the player by making them overpowered healers, but by simply adding extra damage on top.

Not quite. The complexity largely mirrors disc in the past, where knowing when to use absorbs correctly was key in staying ahead and doing good if not great numbers. Replace absorbs with the atonement mechanic. You're rewarded for knowing mechanics ahead of time and precasting atonements for said mechanics. Following it up with high damage spells like Penance and Light's Wrath (artifact) means you have a lot of healing going out once, which is commonly why people will state disc is a great burst healer. The damage is a bonus of the spec, not the complexity.

[*] Direct healing is an in-between to supplement and assist the primary atonement healing mechanic

Essentially you got it. Direct healing is not only the way to apply atonements, but in cases where you can't actually dps targets its there to ensure the spec isn't useless.

[*] Gameplay wise, disc priests will during mid combat find themselves weaving in and out of atonements (apply atonement, cast an offensive spell, apply atonement, cast offensive spell etc).

Yes, but depends on mechanics. See above comment referring to precasting atonements. There are ways to handle sustained damage though through cast sequences like yours, though.

I'm thinking this based on the borrowed time 15% haste from artifact, and the fact that with more atonements we do 1% more dmg per, and some other skills like Light's Wrath scales with atonement quantities.[*] The back and forth between atonement application and damage delivery is intended to be a bit jarring (for example no "proccable" by dmg plea which allows priest to apply/refresh atonement on someone off the GCD, but rather having to dedicate an entire spell to refresh an atonement, one at a time unless using Radiance).

The artifact is definitely impactful on the playstyle, but mostly just passive healing and damage increases. Power of the Dark Side is the only real talent that has large impact on the healing/damage done, but that has it's own caveats and overall you'll play more around the fight/cd then artifact procs. The back and forth is definitely intended to be more complicated than other healers, which is why there's complaints about it, but yeah there's no intended refreshing on atonements. The spec is limited by targets, and for good reason. There are ways to exploit this such as radiance spam with boomkin innervate. There's also no off-gcd abilities that do healing.

[*] The above jarring stop damage, start upkeep, resume damage cannot be avoided and is core to the discipline priests' way of performing.[/list]

If you want to perform at a very good level, yes. You *can* opt out of the damage portion of atonement and use healing spells only, but it's definitely not as effective outside previously mentioned covenant scenarios.

I'm very interested in disc, and some of the above points are the reason I'm interested in, but the lack of procced / flowing gameplay is making me hesitate a bit. I last healed back in Wrath, using a disc priest, and it was the reason I stopped, since it felt mind numbingly boring. Now it feels like the exact opposite, but I'd like to see not only a complex and involved rotation, but a rewarding and good-feeling spec which may at times surprise me with some potential procs here and there. I might have it all wrong, appreciate any advice by those in the beta who were able to get some hands on with the class, no matter the content (my focus is pve raiding however)

The spec actually flows decently well, but there's the whole issue of having to "know" fights to really see that potential. There's minor issues but largely it's more of a 5man problem, and in raids the spec is way more fun. It's incredibly rewarding if you're a proactive healer. It's also a bit punishing if you're super reactive. Overall the spec is pretty damn fun if you enjoy the dps to healing mechanic and it's certainly worth trying out.

[Deleted]

The spec actually flows decently well, but there's the whole issue of having to "know" fights to really see that potential. There's minor issues but largely it's more of a 5man problem, and in raids the spec is way more fun. It's incredibly rewarding if you're a proactive healer. It's also a bit punishing if you're super reactive. Overall the spec is pretty damn fun if you enjoy the dps to healing mechanic and it's certainly worth trying out.

Thanks for all the replies mate. I'll be sitting tight waiting for the prepatch. I'm definitely on board for disc as it stands

[Flay-]

Has anyone sen what professions will work best with the newly updated disc healing?

[Deleted]

So I finally got beta and tried out disc priest and wanted to leave a few impressions with others for those who are just picking it up or want to. Before I did any dungeons I had been really worried about the state of disc and how it would perform, having read some negative comments and views on it.

After a rough start in Eye of Azshara (really should look at strats before I go in) and after I stopped panicking and being terrified of screwing up and having a horrible pug grp with no patience, I found that I really enjoyed disc.

The key thing I took away was DO NOT PANIC! I can't stress this enough, the minute I started to panic, either from not knowing boss strats or ui issues or whatever else, I started to flounder and lost my rhythym, and the group took some serious hp dips. One of my biggest worries was about this and how I would 'catch up' the healing. There are abilities that are available to help in this situation. I had PI and that gave me a great boost in healing, shadowmend also helped in some areas, or even rapture in a pinch can work. So there are ways, you just need to keep your head and use what tools are available.

The core mechanic of disc is that you DPS to HEAL, the spec is built for this, and if you aren't dpsing (making sure to have atonements on people) you really are going to have a bad day with keeping the group alive. I had a fairly decent dps output depending on the fights, sometimes keeping up with the dps other times not so much.

The talents I found had some situational ones and just some personal preference options. I tested out both Castigation and Schism and personally I found that Castigation was a lot easier to work with. From the point that I was still learning the spec, still learning dungeon mechanics, I would recommend starting with this one. While Schism adds to the play, being something else outside of penance and smite, often I would find myself running around to much, or just not getting as much from the buff as I could be, forgetting to refresh atonements, having to move... so having castigation made it one less ability I had to weave in. I think once I am more confident in the spec I will likely use schism a lot more.

Overall I found disc to be fun and engaging, and yes, will take a bit more to master with the juggling of atonements and dpsing. But I think its an intersting mechanic for healers who want to try something different rather than the traditional healer. Disc is a preemptive healer, so knowing when damage is coming so you can pre atone/shield will get you more out of the spec than if you simply react.

As for artifacts, well I think I went the wrong way. (is there such a thing?) I started filling out to the left, being lured by the increased penance damage and thinking 'hey that barrier trait sounds like it would be useful in raids...' Looking back over it I think going to the right would have been a better move.

I'm interested to hear what those who have been playing disc think on the artifact talents. Is there likely to be a preferred route to take? Are some of the traits looking a lot better than others? Given that there will most likely be about a month from launch to the first raid, just how much are artifact power are we likely to have accumulated?

I haven't had much play time on beta, so I'm still not sure on how fast/slow it is to gather artefact power. (Nor have I read all the pages in this thread, so sorry if some of this has been gone over before)