WoD and the temple of karabor

[Nem2k]

So I just picked up WoD after taking a break for a few years and I'm a bit confused about the general story...

In Rise of the Horde, orcs are at "war" with the draenei, shadow council is created, temple of karabor is taken over by the shadow council, orcs drink Mannoroth's blood, portal to azeroth is created. The end.

Some time later, (Grom) Hellscream drinks the felblood, he ends up dying as he slays Mannoroth

More time passes, and Garrosh Hellscream goes back in time to when Grom was about to drink Mannoroths blood. He ends up not drinking the felblood, creating an alternate timeline, and WoD begins

To my understanding Grom's drinking of the felblood happened years after the initial invasion of Azeroth by the orcs. If Garrosh only went back as far as this event, then everything that happened prior (in Rise of the Horde) should still have happened

So in Rise of the Horde, the shadow council takes over the temple of karabor. Given that event precedes the opening of the first portal, why is the temple not run by the shadow council in shadowmoon valley in WoD? How did the council of exarchs come into the picture? The fact that we are in the alternate timeline should not change the fact that the council took over the temple

Extending that further, towards the end of the book, the entire region of Tanaan Jungle/Hellfire Peninsula has turned into a wasteland. So again, given the alternate timeline starts after these events, why is Tanaan Jungle green in the current game?

The only thing I can think of is that I got my timeline/history wrong. Maybe the WoD cinematic is actually showing the very first drinking of Mannoroths blood (when guldan got greedy and KJ promised him great power as a result of drinking the felblood) prior to the first portal being built? In other words, WoD goes all the way back to the very end of Rise of the Horde? By that time many of the draenei on draenor had been slaughtered, so why are there so many of them in WoD? And what happened to the shadow council occupancy of the temple of karabor?

I know the book is probably not canon, and blizz may have changed the story since then, but just wondering if I missed anything that actually explains these differences

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

So I just picked up WoD after taking a break for a few years and I'm a bit confused about the general story...

In Rise of the Horde, orcs are at "war" with the draenei, shadow council is created, temple of karabor is taken over by the shadow council, orcs drink Mannoroth's blood, portal to azeroth is created. The end.

Some time later, (Grom) Hellscream drinks the felblood, he ends up dying as he slays Mannoroth

More time passes, and Garrosh Hellscream goes back in time to when Grom was about to drink Mannoroths blood. He ends up not drinking the felblood, creating an alternate timeline, and WoD begins

To my understanding Grom's drinking of the felblood happened years after the initial invasion of Azeroth by the orcs. If Garrosh only went back as far as this event, then everything that happened prior (in Rise of the Horde) should still have happened

So in Rise of the Horde, the shadow council takes over the temple of karabor. Given that event precedes the opening of the first portal, why is the temple not run by the shadow council in shadowmoon valley in WoD? How did the council of exarchs come into the picture? The fact that we are in the alternate timeline should not change the fact that the council took over the temple

Extending that further, towards the end of the book, the entire region of Tanaan Jungle/Hellfire Peninsula has turned into a wasteland. So again, given the alternate timeline starts after these events, why is Tanaan Jungle green in the current game?

The only thing I can think of is that I got my timeline/history wrong. Maybe the WoD cinematic is actually showing the very first drinking of Mannoroths blood (when guldan got greedy and KJ promised him great power as a result of drinking the felblood) prior to the first portal being built? In other words, WoD goes all the way back to the very end of Rise of the Horde? By that time many of the draenei on draenor had been slaughtered, so why are there so many of them in WoD? And what happened to the shadow council occupancy of the temple of karabor?

We didn't go back to an earlier point in our own timeline, but to one of the infinite series of timelines that resembles our own. Many things are the same, some are not. The Bronze Dragon Kairozdormu chose this particular timeline as the one best suited to begin his multi-dimensional conquest, a plan made dead on arrival when Garrosh repaid his rescuer by killing him.

[Deleted]

^wow that answer is nothing more than a retcon made in 5s.
I think it's fail.

[ReVnX]

Alternate timeline, there are a lot of differences.

For instance, Archimonde is the one in contact with Gul'dan, not Kil'jaeden

Also Garrosh arrives some time before the blood drinking, changing things further

[Nem2k]

ugh thats such cheap writing. So we didn't actually go back in time, we just went to some alternate reality where we can basically throw away the entire history of everything because now none of it happened/matters?

So in this other timeline, were the orcs still at war with the draenei? Did they wipe them out as in the original timeline? Clearly not because many still run around in game. If they didn't get wiped out, then why are KJ/Archimonde not pissed? I thought that was KJs initial motivation...and if the draenei are still around then what is the motivation for offering the felblood?

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

ugh thats such cheap writing. So we didn't actually go back in time, we just went to some alternate reality where we can basically throw away the entire history of everything because now none of it happened/matters?

So in this other timeline, were the orcs still at war with the draenei? Did they wipe them out as in the original timeline? Clearly not because many still run around in game. If they didn't get wiped out, then why are KJ/Archimonde not pissed? I thought that was KJs initial motivation...and if the draenei are still around then what is the motivation for offering the felblood?

As I understand it, we arrive just as they are beginning their war on the Draenei. We are there for the first attacks in Shadowmoon Valley (if you're playing Alliance).

- - - Updated - - -

^wow that answer is nothing more than a retcon made in 5s.
I think it's fail.

Did I get something wrong? If so, please correct me. <listening> Thanks.

[Enthralled]

ugh thats such cheap writing. So we didn't actually go back in time, we just went to some alternate reality where we can basically throw away the entire history of everything because now none of it happened/matters?

To be honest, it was a bad expansion, lore-wise. Very bad. It could have been OK-ish, but something happened internally at Blizzard or whatever and they decided to move on to Legion (that much is obvious) and they just gave up on Warlords. I personally just act like WoD was nothing but a vehicle to get alternate timeline Gul'dan (who is a bad-ass character, I have to admit) into our Azeroth, and nothing more. It's a shame, but out of all the years of Warcraft, it was bound to happen that they gave us one truly sub-par expac.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

In all fairness, we should remember that lore was in a pretty bad state the first time we went to Draenor (BC, for Outlands). There were a lot of inconsistencies and some bad writing back then. The game was very successful, but it wasn't because of the well-developed lore lol. I think they wanted to revisit the setting without being handcuffed by every little detail.

[Syn22]

Alternate timeline, there are a lot of differences.

For instance, Archimonde is the one in contact with Gul'dan, not Kil'jaeden

Also Garrosh arrives some time before the blood drinking, changing things further

Kil'jaeden was the one in contact with Guldan. Archimonde only took an active approach when Kil'Jaeden's plan (enslavement of the orcs via Mannaroth) failed.

[Aestholus]

To my understanding Grom's drinking of the felblood happened years after the initial invasion of Azeroth by the orcs. If Garrosh only went back as far as this event, then everything that happened prior (in Rise of the Horde) should still have happened

In the regular timeline Grom was the first warchief to drink Mannoroths blood.

[ReVnX]

If you find this disturbing, wait until you get to the "Twisting Nether trascending all realities, multiple Velen's but 1 Archimonde/Kil'Jaeden" bullshit

With this expansion all you can do is accept they wanted Gul'dan back for Legion and pretend all the rest never happened...

[Enthralled]

If you find this disturbing, wait until you get to the "Twisting Nether trascending all realities, multiple Velen's but 1 Archimonde/Kil'Jaeden" bullshit

Actually, when that was explained, it made much more lore sense.
There is one Twisting Nether, but many universes and timelines (all but one of those are false/dead ends -- ours is the "true" one). Demons come from the Twisting Nether. When you kill them, their souls go back to the Nether and they regenerate. They can only be killed forever in the TN, or on a world so saturated in fel energies that it emulates the environment of the Nether.

[Magnagarde]

The ending of WoD was poorly written. Many are disappointed with the small amount of content, but at least the ending could've been made senseful. I feel like the only reason they've made this expansion was to revive Grom and bring back Gul'dan, nothing else.

Grom drank no demon blood, yet still got so easily persuaded to invade Azeroth anyway. He attemped to invade Azeroth and got beaten back. He attempted to sack Karabor, got beaten back, got taken hostage by the Legion and once the Legion got defeated, he stands triumphantly above all the others after doing nothing and actually attempting to kill all these people that he triumphantly overlooks. To top it all off, no single Draenei or Alliance/Horde(especially Alliance) character had anything against it. Like, seriously.

[Deleted]

To my understanding Grom's drinking of the felblood happened years after the initial invasion of Azeroth by the orcs. If Garrosh only went back as far as this event, then everything that happened prior (in Rise of the Horde) should still have happened

Grom drank Mannorth blood second time in the forest of Kalimdor so he can kill Cenarion and his Sentinels
About Garosh - he was sent back further more - like 4 years before the first "drinking" event. In WOD when that moment (with the blood drinking) came, the Iron Horde was already a fact. Garosh just wanted to kill Mannoroth (WoD opening cinematic), because he wanted "pure" orc horde and he was the only thing that could corrupt this "idea" of his.

So in Rise of the Horde, the shadow council takes over the temple of karabor. Given that event precedes the opening of the first portal, why is the temple not run by the shadow council in shadowmoon valley in WoD? How did the council of exarchs come into the picture? The fact that we are in the alternate timeline should not change the fact that the council took over the temple

After Garosh told everything he knew about the past I am pretty sure Grom took measures to reduce Shadow Council's influence in Draenor to minimum. I the short storie Code of Rule you can see that Grom actually force the Ogre Empire to find a way to coutner the fel magic. There is even a scene where the ruling council and the Emperor fight with orc warlocks in improvised arena. So from that you can even asume that Shadow Council members are hunted.

Extending that further, towards the end of the book, the entire region of Tanaan Jungle/Hellfire Peninsula has turned into a wasteland. So again, given the alternate timeline starts after these events, why is Tanaan Jungle green in the current game?

Read upper reply. Being hunted reduce the opportunities that Gul'dan and his warlock can use their fel spells that caused the dead of the land in Tannan.
Ingame the land is corrupted by fel magic recently, since the events of HFC. So in game time you can guess that Tannan is corrupted since only few months. Thats why the land is still green there

The only thing I can think of is that I got my timeline/history wrong. Maybe the WoD cinematic is actually showing the very first drinking of Mannoroths blood (when guldan got greedy and KJ promised him great power as a result of drinking the felblood) prior to the first portal being built? In other words, WoD goes all the way back to the very end of Rise of the Horde? By that time many of the draenei on draenor had been slaughtered, so why are there so many of them in WoD? And what happened to the shadow council occupancy of the temple of karabor?

As someone said in the above replies we arrived just when the orcs started the attack on the draeneis, so we, with the help of Velen, Yrel, Khadgar and co. managed to stop the Iron Horde attack on Karabor, thus saving it.

I know the book is probably not canon, and blizz may have changed the story since then, but just wondering if I missed anything that actually explains these differences

The book should be quite canon, because it is for "our" time line. WoD is alternativetime line.

[Florena]

^wow that answer is nothing more than a retcon made in 5s.
I think it's fail.

It's not a retcon. That's how the expansion was planned from the start, an alternate timeline. You can say it's lazy, sure, that blizz would take this route so that they can call back to things they want to call back to but otherwise do whatever the heck they want to lore wise regardless of whether it matches Rise of the Horde and other lore, but it's not a retcon at all.

[Deleted]

Actually, when that was explained, it made much more lore sense.
There is one Twisting Nether, but many universes and timelines (all but one of those are false/dead ends -- ours is the "true" one). Demons come from the Twisting Nether. When you kill them, their souls go back to the Nether and they regenerate. They can only be killed forever in the TN, or on a world so saturated in fel energies that it emulates the environment of the Nether.

The problem when you add "infinite" of something, and only 1 of something, yet this one thing, for example Archimonde, can't exist at infinite places at the same time. Meaning Archimonde can't be in Warcraft 3, because he is in Wod. Not to mention in every reality that the orcs drink blood and become demons , duplicates of that orc is sent into the Nether . For example Gul'dan, there are now 4 unique Gul'dans in the lore, and 3 of them will at one point exist in the same reality, if you count the skull of Gul'dan in the MU^2s as him, that is.

[Enthralled]

The problem when you add "infinite" of something, and only 1 of something, yet this one thing, for example Archimonde, can't exist at infinite places at the same time. Meaning Archimonde can't be in Warcraft 3, because he is in Wod.

W3 and WoD don't take place at the same time, but I see what you're getting at.

Not to mention in every reality that the orcs drink blood and become demons , duplicates of that orc is sent into the Nether .

Orcs don't become demons when they drink the juice. They just become all crazed and under the Legion's control.

For example Gul'dan, there are now 4 unique Gul'dans in the lore, and 3 of them will at one point exist in the same reality, if you count the skull of Gul'dan in the MU^2s as him, that is.

I have no idea where you're getting the other two besides MU Gul'dan and AU Gul'dan, but you really do not have to explain. I didn't say that it is a great thing, this change in the lore. I said it made a bit more sense when put in context. It's best to not think about it too much. I personally wish that WoD never happened.

[WolfRider]

I don't find WoD bad written!

Our Draenor events :
- Ner'zhul was Shadowmoon's clan Elder Shaman and chieftain
- He lost his wife
- He often traveled to Oshu'gun, where he could speak to the ancestors' Spirits
- Gul'Dan was one of Nerzhul's apprentice and was greedy for power.
- Oshu'Gun is in fact the Genedar, Draeneis' spaceship that landed on Draenor long time ago.
- the Genedar had 3 naarus inside : D'ore, K'ure and K'ara.
- D'ore died in the crash.
- K'ure is still wounded inside the Genedar.
- In the Genedar landing process (or crash), K'ara has been thrown away and deadly wounded. He slowly changed to Void State.
- Some of the Shadowmoon's clan shamans found him and slowly became influenced by Shadow forces exuding from the Naaru. They refered to him as the Dark Star.
- Ner'zhul outlawed the practice of shadow-magic entirely because it was a direct contradiction of the shadowmoon clan's tradition of preserving the sanctity of their ancestral spirits
- Kil'Jaeden found the Draeneis' track on Draenor
- He used Nerzhul's wife ghost appearance to trick the shaman in order to gather Orc clans under one Hord and slay the Draeneis.
- As orcs where killing Draeneis, Ner'zhul had a second thought on what Kil'Jaeden told him. He went to Oshu'gun, Ancestors revealed that he was tricked by the Deceiver.
- Gul'Dan saw Ner'zhul speaking to the Spirits and decided to warn Kil'Jaeden.
- Kil'Jaeden granted him with necromantic knowledge, Gul'Dan learned about Shadow and Fel. Ner'zhul kept a place in the Hord but lost his power.
- Gul'Dan founded the Shadow's council, changing every shaman into warlock.
- He made orcs drink the Blood of Mannoroth, except Durotan and his clan, warned by Ner'zhul.
- Hord slew most of Draeneis, then turned against each other.
- Gul'Dan has been contacted by Medhiv, promising him new lands and resources...
- Medhiv and Gul'dan opened Black Portals on Azeroth and Draenor.
- First war

Alternative Timeline Draenor
- Ner'zhul was Shadowmoon's clan Elder Shaman and chieftain
- His wife was alive
- He often traveled to Oshu'gun, where he could speak to the ancestors' Spirits
- Gul'Dan was one of Nerzhul's apprentice and was greedy for power.
- Oshu'Gun is in fact the Genedar, Draeneis' spaceship that landed on Draenor long time ago.
- the Genedar had 3 naarus inside : D'ore, K'ure and K'ara.
- D'ore died in the crash.
- K'ure is still wounded inside the Genedar
- When the Genedar crashed, K'ara has been thrown away and deadly wounded. He slowly changed to Void State.
- Garrosh came to Draenor, and warned one of the most respected chieftains : his alternative father Grommash Hellscream.
- He convinced him to gather other Orc clans before Gul'dan and stop him to make them drink Mannoroth Blood.
- He shown him new lands and resources that Gul'Dan will promise him and their doomed fate (the worst part, not Orcs redemption).
- Ner'zhul found K'ara and slowly became influenced by Shadow forces exuding from the Naaru.
- He learned necromancy and his alignment with spirits changed to decay. His Shamanism turned to the Void.
- This radical change within Shadowmoon's clan made his wife leave the clan with other orcs
- Kil'Jaeden contacted Gul'Dan and shown him what he could fulfil (the best part, not his death)
- Gul'Dan left the Shadowmoon's clan and recruited his friend Teron'Gor and Cho'Gall, an ogre mage from Nagrand, influenced by Shadow magic coming from K'ure.
- Time goes by, Gul'dan sent a message to all orc clans, gathering them at Kil'Jaeden's throne location.
- Grommash refused, killed Mannoroth and captured Gul'dan.
- the New Iron Hord builds the Dark Portal
- they start Azeroth invasion but got pushed back.
- Back on Draenor, Alliance side, Ner'zhul found difficulties to manage Draeneis, Grommash threatened him to fire his clan from Iron Hord, accusing him to be useless.
- Ner'zhul, to protect his clan, decided to go full throttle and to use the Death Star, the Dying Naaru he caught. He gave it to Iron Hord as a powerful weapon to attack Karabor.

Now that's the interesting part.
Because Ner'zhul worked with Shadow magic and changed his clan's traditions, it gave Gul'Dan a more advanced knowledge on how to handle Fel magic later.
And because Kil'Jaeden knew that Gul'Dan was a better pawn from the beginning (because of previous Draenor experience), he chose him directly.
From the beginning, Gul'Dan was told to act aside of this Draenor events, then to take over the Iron Hord.
When Mannoroth saw the Iron Hord's advanced weaponry, he knew that something wasn't normal. So it gave the Burning Legion time to think about an alternative plan.

If we had let the Iron Hord invade us, there wouldn't be a Legion invasion so soon.
We have freed Gul'Dan, weakened Iron Hord, Gul'Dan took over the Iron Hord, He turned Cordana Felsong to his Shadow Council, he's been sent to Illidan's body thanks to her informations on the Vault of the Wardens. He found Sargeras Keystone that Illidan's demon hunters stole, opened the gate at the Tomb Of Sargeras.

So, if Garrosh didn't come to AU Draenor, Orcs would have drink Mannoroth Blood, slay Draeneis, turn on each other, Draenor would be lost because of Fel.
No AU Azeroth, no AU Medhiv, Gul'Dan would be grounded on a failing planet.

In conclusion, Warlords Of Draenor is an interesting expansion because it's the first time Blizzard write an expansion as an episode and not a Big Patch Content.
Mis
Without WoD, there wouldn't be Legion

[Kathranis]

The major differences between the two timelines are:

1. Ner'zhul's wife didn't die, so he wasn't manipulated by the Legion and never unified the clans into the Horde to fight the Draenei.
2. Garrosh was never born, allowing our Garrosh to enter the world and manipulate Grom into uniting the clans against the Legion and Azeroth.
3. Gul'dan attempted to create his Horde by tempting the others with fel power, but Garrosh had already started to unify them into the Iron Horde.

[Magnagarde]

The ending is bizzare. The start of the expansion can at least be justified, but the ending can't.