Venezuela: all food distributed by Socialist Party members, ration is under 900 cal

[Deleted]

Democratic Slavery would be an oxymoron.

Democratic Genocide would also be an oxymoron.

And whats your point? Democratic socialism = socialism. Adding democratic to it doesnt change anything.

[nextormento]

Well theres no difference between socialism and adding democratic to it. Its exactly the same thing.

If you claim that social-democrat is a misnomer, I tend to agree.
But the post I responded to was labeling the countries in northern Europe as democratic socialist. And that is trivially false by any standard.

[Deleted]

Yes.. and this is the outcome:P

But nah.. your run of the mill leftie would say "no no, they all got it wrong, doesnt matter that socialism and communism fails every single time, we will get it right!"

The alternative to rations is not rationing, have the top 1% buystockpiles on EVERYTHING and have most of your population starve to death, HAIL CAPITALISM.

[Nadiru]

I'm not sure where you got the misbegotten concept that "market economy" translates to "capitalism". Market economics significantly predates capitalist theory, and exists throughout economic systems of a wide variety. Mercantilism relied on market action, for instance. Market socialism is decidedly non-capitalist, and does as well. Nor does capitalism itself even require a market economy, to exist.

There are a ton of different definitions of capitalism, and Denmark/Sweden fall a significant number of them, if not all of them. Off the top of my head:

Capital goods (definition: goods that are used in producing other goods, rather than being bought by consumers) created and consumed primarily by private individuals instead of governments? Check.
Currency valuation beholden to markets instead of governments? Check.
Profit motives driving the creation and consumption of capital goods? Check.
Emphasis on household-driven economic growth? Check.

[scaphism]

Yes.. and this is the outcome:P

But nah.. your run of the mill leftie would say "no no, they all got it wrong, doesnt matter that socialism and communism fails every single time, we will get it right!"

I wont argue that this is something that can happen but there are plenty of shit holes in america as well? What part of socialism has turned this place into a shithole. does no one work? did all of their doctors leave the country?

[Deleted]

The alternative to rations is not rationing, have the top 1% buystockpiles on EVERYTHING and have most of your population starve to death, HAIL CAPITALISM.

The alternative to rationing is to abolish all notion of socialism. Open up the market, let people build up their wealth, compete, hire people. Yes, theyd still have poor and homeless.. but instead of dragging the entire country down to the gutter, most people would at least be able to afford a roof over their heads and proper meals. Its not that difficult.. jeesh! Socialism is always doomed to fail cause why be successful if everyone gets A for effort either way.

[Endus]

There are a ton of different definitions of capitalism, and Denmark/Sweden fall a significant number of them, if not all of them. Off the top of my head:

Capital goods (definition: goods that are used in producing other goods, rather than being bought by consumers) created and consumed primarily by private individuals instead of governments? Check.
Currency valuation beholden to markets instead of governments? Check.
Profit motives driving the creation and consumption of capital goods? Check.
Emphasis on household-driven economic growth? Check.

None of those are definitive of capitalism. Not a single one. They're present in capitalism, but exist just fine in a market socialist economy, as well.

Just as an example.

And that's without pointing out the obvious fact that capitalism and socialism aren't antagonistic concepts, and work just fine in concert.

[Nadiru]

I wont argue that this is something that can happen but there are plenty of shit holes in america as well? What part of socialism has turned this place into a shithole. does no one work? did all of their doctors leave the country?

Just because socialist policies generally turn places into shitholes doesn't mean other policies don't also turn places into shitholes. Capitalism has its fair share of problems, too. The Rust Belt got fucked over by trade policies enacted to benefit American consumers at the expense of American producers, which came with its own geographical winners and losers. Detroit is a quintessential example of capitalist and socialist policies fueling each other, the end result being to completely gut a city.

[Deleted]

I wont argue that this is something that can happen but there are plenty of shit holes in america as well? What part of socialism has turned this place into a shithole. does no one work? did all of their doctors leave the country?

I guess you mean places like Detroit. USA is actually pretty socialist now.. we dont reward success as much as we used to. It wouldnt be nearly as bad if we got rid of food stamps and welfare and maybe only give them the absolute minimum to survive.

[Nadiru]

None of those are definitive of capitalism. Not a single one. They're present in capitalism, but exist just fine in a market socialist economy, as well.

Just as an example.

Capital goods being bought and sold by private individuals for individuals is the essence of capitalism, Endus. Capitalism's dictionary definition: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market.

You may be right about the latter three qualities (though I expect currency valuations end up being beholden to government intervention in a market socialist economy) but quality #1, the one I put first and foremost? The definition of capitalism.

[Endus]

Capital goods being bought and sold by private individuals for individuals is the essence of capitalism, Endus. Capitalism's dictionary definition: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market.

And your own definition completely backs up my point. Not sure why you don't see that.

Just as a for-instance; there are socialist models that don't involve private ownership of capital goods that are also not government ownership of those goods, but some other form of collective ownership.

That's where your first point was off, in suggesting that socialism requires government ownership. It can include that, but you can just as easily have state capitalism. Where there's government ownership of capital goods, in a capitalist system.

This is exactly what I mean when I say people misuse the terms.

[wheresmywoft]

The alternative to rationing is to abolish all notion of socialism. Open up the market, let people build up their wealth, compete, hire people. Yes, theyd still have poor and homeless.. but instead of dragging the entire country down to the gutter, most people would at least be able to afford a roof over their heads and proper meals. Its not that difficult.. jeesh! Socialism is always doomed to fail cause why be successful if everyone gets A for effort either way.

They had that before rationing.... The result was only certain towns had stocked stores, the ones where the upper classes lived.

[Deleted]

This video was watchable untill the other guy went full InfoWars and rambled about global economy collapse, one world government and global curency. Felt like a 2015 shmita thing all over again <_<

[Nadiru]

And your own definition completely backs up my point. Not sure why you don't see that.

Just as a for-instance; there are socialist models that don't involve private ownership of capital goods that are also not government ownership of those goods, but some other form of collective ownership.

That's where your first point was off, in suggesting that socialism requires government ownership. It can include that, but you can just as easily have state capitalism. Where there's government ownership of capital goods, in a capitalist system.

This is exactly what I mean when I say people misuse the terms.

Then the dictionary's misusing the term, or more likely you are. And in any case, the type of capital goods ownership going on in Denmark and Sweden is not collective. Even companies which attempt to mimic collective ownership through employee stock ownership and employee stock options are still doing it through a non-public format; they're essentially giving up bits of the company to a number of private individuals, even a large number of private individuals. But they aren't giving up the company, as a whole, to those who work there.

[Endus]

Then the dictionary's misusing the term, or more likely you are. And in any case, the type of capital goods ownership going on in Denmark and Sweden is not collective. Even companies which attempt to mimic collective ownership through employee stock ownership and employee stock options are still doing it through a non-public format; they're essentially giving up bits of the company to a number of private individuals, even a large number of private individuals. But they aren't giving up the company, as a whole, to those who work there.

There are plenty of examples of exactly that which you're disputing. Union-owned shops, credit unions, co-operatives, etc.

There's no country in the Western world that is purely capitalist in nature. They're all some form of mixed economy. Saying "oh, they're not socialist, because there's still elements of capitalism in there!" is nonsense, because by the same argument, they're not capitalist, either.

[Nadiru]

There are plenty of examples of exactly that which you're disputing. Union-owned shops, credit unions, co-operatives, etc.

None of which represent a significant fraction of the economy as a whole. As an aside, I'm 99% sure we've had this exact argument in 2013 to the exact same stalemate that we are reaching now. Maybe 2012.

[dextersmith]

How is he not executed by the public? At least the black market made food available. He would rather go out of his way to actively starve his people than step down and give someone else a chance to save them.

[Fojos]

Yes.. and this is the outcome:P

But nah.. your run of the mill leftie would say "no no, they all got it wrong, doesnt matter that socialism and communism fails every single time, we will get it right!"

Actually, the problem is that guys here don't know the difference between democratic socialism and social democracy.

PS: Bernie Sanders is aiming for the system used by scandinavia, social democracy, and not democratic socialism.

[Nadiru]

How is he not executed by the public? At least the black market made food available. He would rather go out of his way to actively starve his people than step down and give someone else a chance to save them.

Private gun ownership is outlawed in Venezuela.

[dextersmith]

Private gun ownership is outlawed in Venezuela.

They need to assemble the way Egypt did.