Be Honest. How is Legion's Endgame?

[nazrakin]

No, some people moaned about it, some were happy with it.

Those that felt lonely had the option of using their HS instead of their Garrison stone and going to a city (Stormshield, Shrine, etc). Now there is no option for those who don't like being around other players (especially as you can't fly in Dala to escape people) so you can expect even more people to moan about this come live than were moaning for it in WoD.

Those that don't like being around other players will still have the option of using your Garrison stone instead of the Dalaran stone.

[caervek]

Those that don't like being around other players will still have the option of using your Garrison stone instead of the Dalaran stone.

You think that will stop them complaining?

[FelPlague]

3 months...

Not even actually. 2 months and + x days.

so were on day 9 of june...

so rest of june, 1
rest of july
then augest, 3, not really 2, but yeah i was tired and counted 4

[nazrakin]

You think that will stop them complaining?

Of course not, people are always going to complain if the game isnt molded to their exact playstyle. However, if you're going to suggest that people who "felt lonely" in Garrisons should have went to a city instead, then you can easily make reverse argument that people who loved garrisons can continue to hang out there during Legion, theres really no detriment to doing that if being alone is that important to your experience.

[Biggles Worth]

Almost 4 months... we're at the start of June. This will be coming out last day of August...

82 days should be enough time to implement the facebook merger, right?

[styil]

It has everything that WoD endgame didn't have, and more. The real test is in future patches.

I don't think "But it's better than WoD!" is the benchmark we should be aiming for.

[PrairieChicken]

Endless scaling dungeons...just saying. Thats what I'll be doing on off raid nights

Which is another content targeted at the raiders (who are satisfied already)

[Saiona]

Which is another content targeted at the raiders (who are satisfied already)

I mean no its targeted at people who like 5 mana. I like 5 man's and raiding

[caervek]

The big problem for Legion as I see it, is yes the leveling is better than WoD and yes the endgame is better, but it's still WoD 2.0, the masses of players who left due to no flying will not be convinced to come back by more no flying, the masses of players who left due to the 20m or die format will not be convinced to come back by more 20m or die format, the players who were bored by garrisons will not be convinced to come back by more garrison with other players in them.

Which is another content targeted at the raiders (who are satisfied already)

No it's targeted at non-raiders, also raiders in general were not satisfied by WoD, the mythic playerbase dropped by 2/3 in WoD.

[Saiona]

With how artifacts power up slowly (even slower for that last 20/20 trait), how legendaries work and how catching up your offspec works Legion seems to really push the player to invest in 1 maybe 2 characters. It is something I like a lot. They found a way to get back the feeling of having a "main" in vanilla/bc by basically having paragon levels built into your artifact.

[Daffan]

They already said they are putting in heavy catchup for artifacts. So give it 1-2 month and the so called "artifact endgame" will be hilarious

[PrairieChicken]

No it's targeted at non-raiders, also raiders in general were not satisfied by WoD, the mythic playerbase dropped by 2/3 in WoD.

No the mythics will be too difficult for non-raiders to participate (and lack of LFD further facilitates it), meaning that the current (or ex) raiders will be the primary audience

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I mean no its targeted at people who like 5 mana. I like 5 man's and raiding

So bingo you are a raider

[Deleted]

It's farming cheap shit. There is no difference from vanilla to now - if you want to be serious you either pvp or raid max level.

[PrairieChicken]

Not only talents, it's a secondary progression system man. You will level them for long after hitting 100. It is an improvement. If that's another iteration of legendaries, than what the actual legendaries are? Another iteration of BoE epix? Lol... With this line of thinking HFC was just another iteration of MC, so super boring. And Battlegrounds are just another iterations of dungeons, but with enemy players, instead of NPCs...

I didn't even think that world quest rewards would be scaling before reading your post, which stated it as a fact... Are you that stupid? o.O

Artifacts are by no means iteration of anything btw, if anything they are merge of weapon and old talent system. They are by no means gated behind anything but time effort, they provide much more steady growth than old legendaries did too! But oh well, I guess legendaries were next iteration of crafting

Artifacts are iteration on leveling

[Gilgameshh]

Which is another content targeted at the raiders (who are satisfied already)

How many raiders are really that satisfied?

Who likes having to do three difficulties of the same raid (four if you have an alt)? Who wants only four raids throughout the expansion's lifetime? Who wants the "real" end-game to be so difficult that they can no longer bring their friends who have less skill?

There also seems to be a large amount of raiders who are pining for the return of 10-man raiding. Others would like to see 10-man raids like Karazhan to compliment the existence of 20-man raids.

Point is, I don't really think a lot of raiders will be happy with only four raids that are extremely similar to WoD in terms of size/difficulty with 3/4 difficulties to burn out on. Just because raiding has been forced down everyone's throats doesn't mean the raiding community itself is happy.

[Huggykaze]

Artifacts are iteration on leveling

Have some cookies *cookies*

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How many raiders are really that satisfied?

Who likes having to do three difficulties of the same raid (four if you have an alt)? Who wants only four raids throughout the expansion's lifetime? Who wants the "real" end-game to be so difficult that they can no longer bring their friends who have less skill?

There also seems to be a large amount of raiders who are pining for the return of 10-man raiding. Others would like to see 10-man raids like Karazhan to compliment the existence of 20-man raids.

Point is, I don't really think a lot of raiders will be happy with only four raids that are extremely similar to WoD in terms of size/difficulty with 3/4 difficulties to burn out on. Just because raiding has been forced down everyone's throats doesn't mean the raiding community itself is happy.

Real raiders? Not folk who wipe Mannoroth today If content is too hard for you, find different content. Don't be a speshal snowflake.

4 raids is enough, we could obviously get a 2-3 boss raid like TotES, but I personally don't like the idea, yet see how it can be a bit more interesting to others. For most raiders burning through all 3/4 difficulties is an impossible task anyway and Mythic is much different than heroic too.

[caervek]

No the mythics will be too difficult for non-raiders to participate (and lack of LFD further facilitates it), meaning that the current (or ex) raiders will be the primary audience

Nah, high end 5mans has always been primerily for non-raiders, that's why you could always skip heroics and go straight to raiding, also why 5mans had their own sets in vanilla/tbc/etc. Blizzard are just going back to the old model of treating dungeoneers as well as raiders.

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Who wants the "real" end-game to be so difficult that they can no longer bring their friends who have less skill?

It's been like that since WotLK, mythic is no harder than old heroic/hardmode was, the reason 2/3 of the mythic playerbase quit in WoD was due to the fixed 20m format not the actual encounters.

[Gilgameshh]

Real raiders? Not folk who wipe Mannoroth today If content is too hard for you, find different content. Don't be a speshal snowflake.

4 raids is enough, we could obviously get a 2-3 boss raid like TotES, but I personally don't like the idea, yet see how it can be a bit more interesting to others. For most raiders burning through all 3/4 difficulties is an impossible task anyway and Mythic is much different than heroic too.

There's no content in WoW that I've ever actually considered difficult (on a personal level) outside of Gladiator+ level arenas. I'm certainly not a "speshul snowflake" that wants easy content, but there is a point in PvE where content becomes too difficult to be fun. Mythic raiding has reached that point, and I know I'm not alone when I say that. There are people of all skill levels saying the exact same thing.

I have no idea why you enjoy four difficulties in only four raids. Did you play before Cataclysm? If not, that might explain why you're okay with it. Almost everyone I've talked to does not enjoy a raid with 2-4 difficulties (3 on average). It's just a burnout.

Mythic is not much different than heroic, either. A few added mechanics + increased difficulty =/= new content.

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It's been like that since WotLK, mythic is no harder than old heroic/hardmode was, the reason 2/3 of the mythic playerbase quit in WoD was due to the fixed 20m format not the actual encounters.

It has not been like that since WotLK. My guild absolutely carried several people in the expansion. My guild in WoD was far better, yet it was harder to clear mythic content. The difference is extremely noticeable.

I agree that the 20m format is definitely a problem at this point, but I don't think it's the sole reason why 2/3 of the mythic player base quit. I'm pretty sure multiple difficulty burnout, increased mythic difficulty, and lack of content contributed to the decline as well.

[caervek]

I agree that the 20m format is definitely a problem at this point, but I don't think it's the sole reason why 2/3 of the mythic player base quit. I'm pretty sure multiple difficulty burnout, increased mythic difficulty, and lack of content contributed to the decline as well.

Multiple difficulty was the same in MoP the difficulties just had different names, it wasn't a massive issue then. There is no increased mythic difficulty, mythic is just old heroic renamed, it was no harder in WoD than it was in MoP or Cata, the only additional challenge is the recruitment boss. If lack of content was the cause of the mythic exodus then the mythic playerbase would have decreased at a similar % rate to the overall playerbase, not faster.

[Huggykaze]

There's no content in WoW that I've ever actually considered difficult (on a personal level) outside of Gladiator+ level arenas. I'm certainly not a "speshul snowflake" that wants easy content, but there is a point in PvE where content becomes too difficult to be fun. Mythic raiding has reached that point, and I know I'm not alone when I say that. There are people of all skill levels saying the exact same thing.

I have no idea why you enjoy four difficulties in only four raids. Did you play before Cataclysm? If not, that might explain why you're okay with it. Almost everyone I've talked to does not enjoy a raid with 2-4 difficulties (3 on average). It's just a burnout.

Mythic is not much different than heroic, either. A few added mechanics + increased difficulty =/= new content.

Last time content was too hard was classic Naxx with everything being extremely overtuned (or pre-nerf Archimonde, but this got fixed uber fast) I'm by no means hardcore or a good player, but I've cleared mythic HFC a few months ago and don't find it extremely hard. Also, if Mythic is too hard for you - play heroic or normal. You have options, they were made especially for this. And as you've said yourself - they are practically the same. I still don't know what you expect? 10m raids only? Easier raids? 2 size options? Heroic and normal are flexible.

I've been playing since Vanilla, and honestly comparing pre-WLK raid quality to what we have now makes no sense whatsoever. WLK raiding was great and we had a lot to do, but well... 4 raids consisted of 1-2 rooms, 3 of which had 1 boss, 1 was rehashed. Leaves us with 2 proper, new raids...

I'd rather not have more TotES/EoE-like raids which are just annoying and break continuity during the raid, requiring you to change locations super fast. ToC was considered a bad raid even in WLK, mechanics were mostly fun and engaging, but... 1 room and a cave? We could at least have gotten few different areas with natural obstacles or so...

So yes, all in all, I prefer 4 fresh, long raids, than 6 with 3 being 1 room and 1 rehashed. I most of all liked the TBC raids' model, minus Gruul and Magtheridon, especially the latter, but this isn't coming back, because it broke the rankings and a lot of players whined about it back in the day.

I never said Mythic is new content, but the differences change the fight enough for it to be fresh much longer