Blizzard really messed up the stat squish

[Toppy]

That's because if your ilvl was only going up by 5 points between tiers, it wouldn't feel rewarding and honestly wouldn't matter very much in terms of DPS.

I take it you've never played many other MMOs?

5 ilvl doesnt seem much.

Its a freaking lot when you have 5 ilvls on each piece of gear.

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I'm pretty sure they said it was not going to be the only squish to happen.

It wasnt expected to happen again so soon. But blizz went nuts with stats again

[beanman12345]

If they don't squish mid expansion, I don't see it being messed up. Expac are gear resets anyways. look how many tiers they got out of this last squish. 2 in WoD, potentially 3 in Legion, plus the expac starter raid ilvls, plus 4 difficulties in different ilvls per raid tier. I think they got quite a lot of mileage out of it, so in that respect it worked quite well.

[bloodmoth13]

If they're gonna have to do it again this soon. It means the power gains are really badly thought out, GG

They didnt mess it up, it worked for the time being, they never said that they would never have to do it again, it was always a temporary measure and from what i remember they stated that they would need to revisit it again in a future expansion.

The reason being is that flat increases feel less meaningful the higher you get.

For instance, if you increase X by 1, it will be a different increase based on what X is
X = 1, you get a 100% increase!
x=100, you get a 1% increase...

Big difference, so each expansion, if they only wanted each item to increase % of total damage by 1%, at a point where the player has a million of a stat, they would need to offer 10,000, if they were only 100, it would be 1.

so numerically the increase is exponential, but the percent increases remain fairly linear.

[shoc]

Lol we knew that there would have to be a stat squish every other expansion since before the WoD squish

[MoanaLisa]

They didn't mess up the stat squish, they messed up the scaling. Theres no reason why we should have gone from 60k hp at lvl 90(after the squish) to 450k at 110, just like there's no reason to go from 450k at 100 to 3m at 110...


You probably think WoD was a very good expansion too.

You're probably wrong. I probably think you should have looked it up before starting to toss snark my way. My post history is as easy to read as anyone's.

Apparently you don't get the idea that expansions are as close to stand-alone as they've ever been. Stat resets aren't conceptually different than gear resets. As long as comparative strength against mobs remains the same on a percentage basis there's very little difference. Just to pacify people like you they should start reporting damage in percentages. The whole point is to make players feel more powerful as the expansion progresses. Next expansion we start another lap. It's not difficult to understand.

[skannerz22]

i am so fucking sick of feeling like i am a nerfed character stuck in cataclysm firelands from all these stat squishes

i want to feel like i am a level 110-120
i already told the core devs to stop on twitter and ingame
i hope they stop
because now is the time to stop

[Echocho]

Exponential growth doesn't explain how we go from ~20k to ~120k in 100 iLvls (which by itself is a lot in only two tiers)

Exponential growth of 1% of iLvl would be roughly 55k.

[Huntaer]

They didn't mess up the stat squish, they messed up the scaling. Theres no reason why we should have gone from 60k hp at lvl 90(after the squish) to 450k at 110, just like there's no reason to go from 450k at 100 to 3m at 110...


You probably think WoD was a very good expansion too.

Whats wrong with an opinion though?

[Kryos]

If they're gonna have to do it again this soon. It means the power gains are really badly thought out, GG

They said from day 1 of the first squish that they will squish again once the numbers are too high again. So no, they didn't mess up, you just don't pay attention and write nonsense.

[apelsinjuice]

the problem is when you have 4 different difficulties of everything, the ilvels will have to increase like 200 during a xpac, in legion it will probably be even more.

[Flaks]

Or players have no understanding of how gains work over "current" vs "old" content.
For gear to feel meaningful as an upgrade the increase in power is greater over the current expansion's content, more tangible to a player.
The squish is about significantly reducing the curve on gear prior to the current content.

It's really damn easy not making each tier be a jump of 50-100 ilvls.

[Lochton]

'Soon'?

But wasn't the actual stat squish looked to be next expansion (After Legion)? That isn't so soon.

[Deleted]

They said from day 1 of the first squish that they will squish again once the numbers are too high again. So no, they didn't mess up, you just don't pay attention and write nonsense.

Irony alert

If they're gonna have to do it again this soon. It means the power gains are really badly thought out, GG

1) The issue isn't that they do it, it is that it is this soon. No one with a brain needs Blizzard to tell them to expect another squish one day the way the game is designed.
2) He isn't a Blizzared employee. He is a customer. Employees messing it up intentionally or due to incompetence isn't relevant to him. It doesn't even matter if they had announced a date as well, it doesn't change the situation. It is messed it up for him. They did it. They messed it up from his point of view. Very simple and conclusive.

You just don't pay attention and write nonsense.

[Echocho]

I don't think exponential growth have anything to do in a game that has lasted this long.
First of all the numbers lose significance after a while. In the early days of WoW 100 more damage on your frostbolt was a big deal. Today we don't know what equates to those 100 damage since we're dealing with percentages.
But we need percentages right? We need to increase our damage by the same percentage always? Not really. Even if you would sit at 10000 damage on your frostbolt another 100 would still be a big deal since it has always been a big deal. Keeping track of powergains are actually easier with linear growth for the player since it never changes, it doesn't rely on where you were before the gain, it relies only on the gain itself.
Secondly it means that everything in the world has to behave the same way. Killing a boar when you're doing 10000 damage may be challenging but after 20 iLvls of exponential growth that boar is dead as soon as you touch it. With linear growth it'll still pose something of a challenge, it'll be easier for sure but not trivial. It works the other way round as well. Content designed with those extra 20 iLvls in mind is impossible for a lower geared player with exponential growth.

This is why gear worked differently back in TBC. Exponential growth hadn't had a chance to ruin the entire experience and gear you got from gruul could actually be useful in Hyjal for example. The correct secondary stats could make a lower iLvl item better. Today that's almost never the case, 10 iLvls with haste and versatility will always be better even if your prefered stats are mastery and crit.

[Balazzar]

The non-Heroic 100 stuff was what, i600 maybe i610? Heroic gear i620? Now pretty much everyone is going to be i715 and if you raid its probably over i740. So a stretch of 140 item levels. Legendary ring can be upgraded a great number of times to raise that item level gap.

Mists was 450 n to 463 h dungeons up to i566 in SoO. So a stretch of about 113 to 103. Cloak was 600 and could be upgraded to 612.

Cata was entry from 333 n to 346 h dungeons up to 416 in DS. A stretch of 83 to 70 item levels.

Consider TBC where there was no linear H dung-> kara (many H dungeons were more difficult than Karazahn w/o the right group): the dungeon set 3 was i115, kara ranged i115 to i125, and then by end of Sunwell it was i164. That was less than 50 item levels from DS3/normal dungeon blues and Sunwell gear.

I think a lot of the stat creep is attributable to having 4 difficulties now. I also think that by removing so many secondary stats and so on there was a need to rely on overall item level of the basic stats. Without needing hit or defense cap, or much earlier resistance, the only way to bottleneck players is to amp up the barebones item levels a ton.

EDIT: As an analogy, the stretch from i610 entry 100 gear to i735-740 is 125-130 item levels. Applying that to TBC, your 115 DS3 entry gear before karazahn plus 125 to 130 is 240 to 245. That would be about as good as Heroic Trial of the Crusader, and would be ICC-ready equivalent.

[klaps_05]

the promise pre-wod was for dps not to go over 30k hp and tanks no more than 50k, they just didnt squish enough

[Deleted]

What I really wonder about is, will MoP & WoD raids follow the same formula of the prior raids when we reach lv120? aka will they become as easy to blow up?

[Ryzek]

I don't understand why they keep repeating the same mistake just to squish again, over and over.

It seems a simple fix to me. Instead of radically boosting gear each expansion, just smooth it out.

Levels 1-60 are what? Item level 1-88? If you can stretch 1-60 through 88 iLvLs, why does 80-100 have to go through 500 iLvLs of power?

You won't make the players any less powerful. Soloing old content won't be affected either.

They've said why. Its because players need to feel powerful when they put on new gear and that power usually comes with at minimum 10 ilvl jump, then it spirals our of control from there. They also use ilvl jumps to fix other things. I don't feel you need that much of a jump to feel powerful so long as you can down bosses.

[Deleted]

It's really damn easy not making each tier be a jump of 50-100 ilvls.

How is it easy ?
You have dungeons, mythic dungeons, lfr, normal, heroic and mythic.
All needs to be an upgrade over each other, with multiple tiers needing to have the same substantial upgrades...

So its really easy to not make each tier jump 50 ilvls?
You'd be fine with 0.5% power increase over a whole tier ?
Sure you would.

[Echo of Soul]

The non-Heroic 100 stuff was what, i600 maybe i610? Heroic gear i620? Now pretty much everyone is going to be i715 and if you raid its probably over i740. So a stretch of 140 item levels. Legendary ring can be upgraded a great number of times to raise that item level gap.

Mists was 450 n to 463 h dungeons up to i566 in SoO. So a stretch of about 113 to 103. Cloak was 600 and could be upgraded to 612.

Cata was entry from 333 n to 346 h dungeons up to 416 in DS. A stretch of 83 to 70 item levels.

Consider TBC where there was no linear H dung-> kara (many H dungeons were more difficult than Karazahn w/o the right group): the dungeon set 3 was i115, kara ranged i115 to i125, and then by end of Sunwell it was i164. That was less than 50 item levels from DS3/normal dungeon blues and Sunwell gear.

I think a lot of the stat creep is attributable to having 4 difficulties now. I also think that by removing so many secondary stats and so on there was a need to rely on overall item level of the basic stats. Without needing hit or defense cap, or much earlier resistance, the only way to bottleneck players is to amp up the barebones item levels a ton.

EDIT: As an analogy, the stretch from i610 entry 100 gear to i735-740 is 125-130 item levels. Applying that to TBC, your 115 DS3 entry gear before karazahn plus 125 to 130 is 240 to 245. That would be about as good as Heroic Trial of the Crusader, and would be ICC-ready equivalent.

Well even if we have more difficulties doesn't mean we need to have over 100 iLvls in 3 raids.

For example:

This incidently solves the problem of having to progress through a raid twice at your chosen difficulty.

They've said why. Its because players need to feel powerful when they put on new gear and that power usually comes with at minimum 10 ilvl jump, then it spirals our of control from there. They also use ilvl jumps to fix other things. I don't feel you need that much of a jump to feel powerful so long as you can down bosses.

I'm fine with 5 iLvls, I definitely feel that gain. They can't really blame us for this, well they can of course but they shouldn't.