Are MMO-Champ LFR players the majority of LFR players?

[Mlz]

First of all calm down. I know you use the forum as a medium to vent, but it's hard to read the actual arguments through the avalanche of flames. On the topic, your own argument is flawed because you said a game has characteristics A B C, but, don't you understand that those characteristics might not exist only in WoW anymore?

The predominant characteristic (call it A) is that the game has acted as a hub of communicating with other players for a very long time for a lot of people. Nowadays /2 is nothing to people. Social networking is nowadays second nature to everything technology and wow is not offering that anymore.

Various other characteristics (call them B, C) are often called vastly changed, but that's most of the time an exaggeration. e.g. Raiding can still be very hard core and in fact much harder than before in some cases. Or Vanilla was already "casual", in some facets even more casual than it is now.

About your first paragraph - I'm saying again, go and look at the sales data for WoD - there is a HUGE potential playerbase for WoW so talking about how excellent competition took away from the game that stayed as brilliant as it has always been, is silly.

Also, it's clear you read fuck all about what I typed. Go and actually check out some of the researches I pointed out. Socialicing is nowhere near as motivational as you make it out to be. And when people talk about socialising in gaming context, they value teamwork and random social aspects more than forming long-term friendships. So your point about social media is moot.

Thirdly, changes go either way - simplifying is as much of a change as is bumping up the difficulty. Also, the fact that raiding is much harder than before in some cases is your opinion again. Although, based on your raiding experience this expansion, I too would think it's the toughest shit ever.

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Battlegrounds, Mythic raiding, Arenas, Rated battlegrounds, Pet battle, and leveling(at launch). A lot of things for players to compete over, I think most players aim for the challenge but end up failing.

Tons of things to practice in this game as well unless you think people just log on and clear mythic on there first try or get gladiator during their first season...

Once again blizzard found that players were quitting when they hit a wall but that's their data could be wrong or right.

There is much more to it than just listing up different things to do in the game without bigger context. Everything starts from a character - if your character's gameplay doesn't offer much on challenge, it's more than likely offputting. For example - doing pvp in legion is going to be horrendous for most casters. I wouldn't consider levelling (one-time occurence), raiding and pet battles "a lot of things to compete over", either. Players hit a wall when all they have left to do is to either pet battle or raid, true.

[Deleted]

the fact that raiding is much harder than before in some cases is your opinion again. Although, based on your raiding experience this expansion, I too would think it's the toughest shit ever.

Hold on a second. Don't just taunt and leave. I'd like to see you supporting that claim with some actual arguments. Let's take Hellfire Citadel for example. I claimed that in some cases it can be more hard core than earlier versions of the game. Take the case of how Method killed Archimonde mythic mode, very early with entry gear and no rings on any of the characters. Do you think that was easy mode? That was a case of a pretty hard core opportunity in the game. Hence, what I do in the game is irrelevant, or even what you do (though if you were in the Method team that killed Archimonde, you would know the game can still be hard core), what is relevant in this discussion is that the game has very hard core opportunities if you look for them.

The usual argument against LFR and easy mode in general that goes in contrast with that view is "nobody should be able to see the bosses that easily", but that's a pointless endeavor since we have youtube nowadays, we can watch the bosses anyway, having a "story mode" version in LFR is not a problem, or rather it's not going to change much by removing it.

[Mlz]

Hold on a second. Don't just taunt and leave.

You mean do what you've been doing 99% of the time?

I'd like to see you supporting that claim with some actual arguments. Let's take Hellfire Citadel for example. I claimed that in some cases it can be more hard core than earlier versions of the game. Take the case of how Method killed Archimonde mythic mode, very early with entry gear and no rings on any of the characters. Do you think that was easy mode? That was a case of a pretty hard core opportunity in the game. Hence, what I do in the game is irrelevant, or even what you do (though if you were in the Method team that killed Archimonde, you would know the game can still be hard core), what is relevant in this discussion is that the game has very hard core opportunities if you look for them.

The usual argument against LFR and easy mode in general that goes in contrast with that view is "nobody should be able to see the bosses that easily", but that's a pointless endeavor since we have youtube nowadays, we can watch the bosses anyway, having a "story mode" version in LFR is not a problem, or rather it's not going to change much by removing it.

The raid instance was tuned around the rings so what Method did or didn't do has little meaning in this context. I could have taken the ring off when I killed Archimonde, sure, as much as I could have levelled naked or tried to solo Kazzak as a sub-par class. You're pointing out the absolute extremes while the vast majority who engaged in these activities had a completely different challenge in that context. Ring made HFC pretty trivial, people just aren't killing stuff anymore because there isn't much of a(n active) playerbase left.

Also, I don't necessarily think LFR should be removed. I do think the difficulty should be bumped up to MoP levels before the nerfs, though.

[Deleted]

The raid instance was tuned around the rings so what Method did or didn't do has little meaning in this context. I could have taken the ring off when I killed Archimonde, sure, as much as I could have levelled naked or tried to solo Kazzak as a sub-par class. You're pointing out the absolute extremes while the vast majority who engaged in these activities had a completely different challenge in that context. Ring made HFC pretty trivial, people aren't just killing stuff anymore because there isn't much of a playerbase left.

Hold on a second again. You wouldn't have to take the ring off if you didn't have it at all. That was the hard core opportunity. To be able to reach that boss, and kill it, without having any gear of that kind at all. I claim that this level of hard core gameplay might be higher difficulty that some early incarnations of the game when gating held people back more than the actual difficulty of the game. In that frame thought, it's not "a niche extreme case", it's an actual opportunity, that very few were able to pull off, and that's what made it hard core.

[Mlz]

Hold on a second again. You wouldn't have to take the ring off if you didn't have it at all. That was the hard core opportunity. To be able to reach that boss, and kill it, without having any gear of that kind at all. I claim that this level of hard core gameplay might be higher difficulty that some early incarnations of the game were gating held people back more than the actual difficulty of the game. In that frame thought, it's not "a niche extreme case", it's an actual opportunity, that very few were able to pull off, and that's what made it hard core.

You do realise you are talking about the opportunity that was used by like ~100 players in total? Or even less if you consider how many killed it with a full group of people with no rings? It's beyond me how you don't see that asking to raid 16 hours a day for 2 weeks and calling it a potential challenge is a bit retarded (it sure is a challenge but definitely rather a niché one)? It's like if football was the only sport available and you'd tell good singers that tough luck, there are no choirs but if they truly want to challenge themselves they can play football at the very top league? Like, please.

Also I didn't raid in Vanilla and I highly doubt you did either, so better compare tiers you have personal experience in if you want to give examples so much. And on another note as I already told to someone above - challenge doesn't equal to difficulty only. Making something possible for the 0,002% of the playerbase, provided they invest considerable amount of time, could be one type of challenge, sure, but it's a lot less appealing than, for instance, the warlock class-quest that was considered a challenge as well.

[Deleted]

asking to raid 16 hours a day for 2 weeks and calling it a true challenge is a bit retarded

That is in a moderately sized part a valid point, however, time is not the only thing that exists in the top guilds. I've seen a lot of players lately failing in raiding on extreme overgearing when the number of pulls reaches similar numbers. Being able to be practically undergeared, never do any mistake of that sort, but at the same time be extremely optimal with numbers output (because otherwise those bosses are unkillable when undergeared), it is practically impossible to be brute forced by number of pulls alone.

The probability of killing of a boss of that calibre with undergeared people is very low. With a team of 20 that each has a probability to fail with their low gear of only 20% per pull (that percentage might be optimistic for most people if you throw them in a boss like that undergeared), the probability of having at least one player fail per pull is around 99%. A kill would be practically impossible for averagely skilled people hence you are looking for people with very low chances of failure, when undergeared.

If you get skilled people, it might be still extremely hard, so after that point you are not looking for skill, you are looking for whole team greatness.

[Mlz]

That is in a moderately sized part a valid point, however, time is not the only thing that exists in the top guilds. I've seen a lot of players lately failing in raiding on extreme overgearing when the number of pulls reaches similar numbers. Being able to be practically undergeared, never do any mistake of that sort, but at the same time be extremely optimal with numbers output (because otherwise those bosses are unkillable when undergeared), it is practically impossible to be brute forced by number of pulls alone.

The probability of killing of a boss of that calibre with undergeared people is very low. With a team of 20 that each has a probably to fail of with their low gear of only 20% per pull, the probability of failing at least once is around 99%.A kill would be practically impossible for averagely skilled people.

If you get skilled people, it might be still extremely hard, so after that point you are not looking for skill, you are looking for whole team greatness.

Read my edit. Cba to go over it again that making something near impossible for the 99,99% of the players shouldn't be the only challenge.

[Delaios]

The biggest problem I had with LFR in WoD wasn't about difficulty, but about the reward structure. HFC was the worst. The gear was outclassed by Baleful, Honor and Mythic dungeon gear. HM was pretty awful as well. Tier 1 crafted gear was extremely fast and cheap to make and equal to HM LFR. Then you had garrison missions that rewarded 645 tokens along with a cache that just gave you normal mode gear. BRF was slightly better, but you still got normal mode gear through the cache. What it essentially boiled down to was that the only thing you got out of LFR this expansion was progress towards your legendary ring, and since 6.2.3 a bit of Valor.

[BiggestNoob]

Yeah but people don't want to do orginized raiding. They never have. They want to click a button when ever they want and for however long they want. You get a bite sized raiding experience with bit of fun and some loot if you are lucky. No fuss and commitment free.

That's not raiding. Does it take longer to go to a nice restaurant, order food that is prepared when you order it, wait for it to arrive, then eat it, than to pop a cheap $2 box with tons of salt and preservatives in the microwave for a few minutes and then let it cool? Sure.

You want to call warming up a hot pocket raiding, when we're talking world class perfectly cooked steaks and $40 a glass wine. Except while many of us invest more time in experiencing that because we actually enjoy nice things as opposed to being entitled and demanding rewards for 0 effort, you can also experience raiding even on the most time constrained schedule. But you refuse because *insert crying baby noise*.

If you want a game where you sit down, play for 15 minutes, and then you're done, try CS, CoD, Overwatch, Hearthstone, or any FPS/RTS. You're playing the wrong genre of game to demand that "raiding" cater to your desire not to play the game.

If you want to go raid Mythic then fill your boots. No one cares what you do with your game time but kindly fuck off and let us do what ever we want with our game time.

You can do whatever you want with your game time. What you demand is that the game be modified to suit your "I'm just gonna randomly decide to play for 15 minutes and EVERYTHING IN THE GAME better be doable by me in 15 minutes" play style which necessarily results in terrible design, which then negatively impacts all the rest of us. It also means you don't actually play this game. I can guarantee you that you're terrible at this game and that's never going to change so long as you continue not playing it and demanding rewards just for paying a subscription.

You have the exact same opportunity to experience the content as everyone else. Stop being lazy and go earn it by playing the game.

Your irrational hatred for LFR and remarkable arrogance about how long people can dedicate to a video game makes me think you should pull up a couch at some friendly therapist. Worry about what you are doing in the game and less about total strangers and you will be much happier.

It's not irrational. It's completely logical. This is a hobby. This hobby should not be changed so that some idiots who don't even play the game can pretend like they do. You're the one who's paying a sub for a game you don't even play. If you don't have the time to play the game, you should probably find something else to do that's better suited to your lifestyle.

[spikeh]

The biggest problem I had with LFR in WoD wasn't about difficulty, but about the reward structure. HFC was the worst. The gear was outclassed by Baleful, Honor and Mythic dungeon gear. HM was pretty awful as well. Tier 1 crafted gear was extremely fast and cheap to make and equal to HM LFR. Then you had garrison missions that rewarded 645 tokens along with a cache that just gave you normal mode gear. BRF was slightly better, but you still got normal mode gear through the cache. What it essentially boiled down to was that the only thing you got out of LFR this expansion was progress towards your legendary ring, and since 6.2.3 a bit of Valor.

What do you think will happen if LFR rewards outclassed world content, dungeons and professions?

It will make the rest of the game "irrelevant" because 1) LFR is guaranteed success and 2) apparently the only reason people play this game is for "muh character progression".

Why bother doing world quests every day, or run dungeons, or level professions for loot that's worse than LFR when I can hit up "queue" and receive it every week without fail?

Players will choose the easiest path to the best loot, then deem the rest of the content "irrelevant". Look at Tanaan: the reason it's not "relevant content" is because getting item level 700 PvP gear is far easier.

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That's not raiding. Does it take longer to go to a nice restaurant, order food that is prepared when you order it, wait for it to arrive, then eat it, than to pop a cheap $2 box with tons of salt and preservatives in the microwave for a few minutes and then let it cool? Sure.

You want to call warming up a hot pocket raiding, when we're talking world class perfectly cooked steaks and $40 a glass wine. Except while many of us invest more time in experiencing that because we actually enjoy nice things as opposed to being entitled and demanding rewards for 0 effort, you can also experience raiding even on the most time constrained schedule. But you refuse because *insert crying baby noise*.

If you want a game where you sit down, play for 15 minutes, and then you're done, try CS, CoD, Overwatch, Hearthstone, or any FPS/RTS. You're playing the wrong genre of game to demand that "raiding" cater to your desire not to play the game.



You can do whatever you want with your game time. What you demand is that the game be modified to suit your "I'm just gonna randomly decide to play for 15 minutes and EVERYTHING IN THE GAME better be doable by me in 15 minutes" play style which necessarily results in terrible design, which then negatively impacts all the rest of us. It also means you don't actually play this game. I can guarantee you that you're terrible at this game and that's never going to change so long as you continue not playing it and demanding rewards just for paying a subscription.

You have the exact same opportunity to experience the content as everyone else. Stop being lazy and go earn it by playing the game.



It's not irrational. It's completely logical. This is a hobby. This hobby should not be changed so that some idiots who don't even play the game can pretend like they do. You're the one who's paying a sub for a game you don't even play. If you don't have the time to play the game, you should probably find something else to do that's better suited to your lifestyle.

Great post. I find it ironic that the people who are justifying over-rewarding LFR tend to be the ones that shout "look how busy I am with my life achieving things, no way can I schedule time for a video game!"

They also tend to be the ones with thousands of posts sunk into an ultimately pointless virtual Internet forum defending their inability to schedule time.

[Deleted]

They also tend to be the ones with thousands of posts sunk into an ultimately pointless virtual Internet forum defending their inability to schedule time.

That's not true. Frequent posters rarely want changes to LFR. It's usually those that create fireworks with new threads about it and I have a suspicion they are not the best players around because I've rarely seen the top 10 guilds having any complains about it, other maybe than the rare nitpicking or an "I don't care".

[Deadite]

You're playing the wrong genre of game to demand that "raiding" cater to your desire not to play the game.

What you demand is that the game be modified to suit your "I'm just gonna randomly decide to play for 15 minutes and EVERYTHING IN THE GAME better be doable by me in 15 minutes"

You may want to wipe the rabid drool from your face and put down the crack pipe. I don't demand nor have any expectations from the game. The way you say i demand this and that you make it sound like i had some hand in designing the game. You know what 99% of people who do LFR think? They click a button and play a part of the game that Blizzard implemented. Just like they do with Bg's, Arena,Dungeons and Pet battles. There wasn't a global conspiracy engineered by the 'bads' to ruin raiding. We don't give a flying fuck about it but we also aren't selfish pieces of shit like some people who want it removed even tho they don't have to do it.

It's not irrational. It's completely logical. This is a hobby. This hobby should not be changed so that some idiots who don't even play the game can pretend like they do. You're the one who's paying a sub for a game you don't even play. If you don't have the time to play the game, you should probably find something else to do that's better suited to your lifestyle.

This is a cracker. You say you are not irrational then rant about me ruining your hobby like people who do LFR have any say in what Blizz does. Fuck off you mental. You think all we do is log in to do LFR? You seem to have a tenuous grasp on reality. You act smugly superior and persecuted by the horrid casuals at the same time.

Also it is not that i don't have time to schedule for raiding. I am sure i could fit the time for a few hours per week. It is that i don't want to. Unlike you Blizzard seems to comprehend that most people just don't want to. It is almost like they are trying to cater to as many people as they can and not just the prima donnas.

[BiggestNoob]

I don't demand nor have any expectations from the game. The way you say i demand this and that you make it sound like i had some hand in designing the game.

Yeah but people don't want to do orginized raiding. They never have. They want to click a button when ever they want and for however long they want. You get a bite sized raiding experience with bit of fun and some loot if you are lucky. No fuss and commitment free.

top lmao there

You know what 99% of people who do LFR think? They click a button and play a part of the game that Blizzard implemented.

No, 99% of people who've done LFR don't routinely do LFR. It consumes more time to complete LFR in 1 week than it takes to do it on normal, twice. I know, I've done it on normal in pugs from LFG on alts with shitty gear twice in the time that it took to queue into a full LFR run as both a tank and a healer.

We don't give a flying fuck about it but we also aren't selfish pieces of shit like some people who want it removed even tho they don't have to do it.

You say this one thing, but everything else you say suggests this is a lie, so I'm going to go with the "lol" response.

This is a cracker.

No, this is a cracker: http://www.barronvonberg.org/newmedi...b20872120.jpeg

You say you are not irrational then rant about me ruining your hobby like people who do LFR have any say in what Blizz does.

You constantly demand more rewards and shorter queue times, so Blizzard implements shit like Titanforged, adds tier/trinkets, and incentivizes the shit out of LFR so any reasonably not-retarded mythic raider is forced to carry you literal retards through trivial content that you can't even do because you don't play the game. So yes, you are ruining this game for people who actually play it.

You think all we do is log in to do LFR?

Yes, that's all you do. And probably queue for BGs where you're dead weight, and run old raids where you struggle to kill bosses that can be killed in 2 GCDs at 600 ilvl.

You seem to have a tenuous grasp on reality. You act smugly superior and persecuted by the horrid casuals at the same time.

smug: Exhibiting or feeling great or offensive satisfaction with oneself or with one's situation

It's not smug. I actually care about not being absolute garbage at things I do. Do you have any clue how to play any spec on beta, or do you actually even fully understand even a single spec on WoD, a version that's been out for years now? The answer is no. But for me, actually spending time and effort to learn how things work and then think about how to best play the game to achieve the outcome I want to achieve is something I do because I care about being good.

Here we have some kid who can't even play WoW for 2 hours a week and who is so bad at the game that he doesn't know how to play any spec in it, and likely hasn't actually done any content in the 2 year old expansion as a result demanding this game be made so he can do everything in it. You don't care about your performance. You don't care about knowledge or mastery of anything. You don't care about WoW, you don't care about the people playing it, what you've demonstrated quite nicely here though is that you care about yourself. So yes, someone this selfish who doesn't even play the game should absolutely have nothing to say about it.

It is that i don't want to.

Not only do you not play this game, you don't even want to.

UNINSTALL THE GAME AND GO SEE A THERAPIST.

[Deadite]

Here we have some kid who can't even play WoW for 2 hours a week and who is so bad at the game that he doesn't know how to play any spec in it, and likely hasn't actually done any content in the 2 year old expansion as a result demanding this game be made so he can do everything in it. You don't care about your performance. You don't care about knowledge or mastery of anything. You don't care about WoW, you don't care about the people playing it, what you've demonstrated quite nicely here though is that you care about yourself. So yes, someone this selfish who doesn't even play the game should absolutely have nothing to say about it.



Not only do you not play this game, you don't even want to.

UNINSTALL THE GAME AND GO SEE A THERAPIST.

The rest of your insane ramblings aside and boy are they insane. This diatribe just shows you do have an irrational hatred for LFR. You can make all the ridiculous assumptions about me you like as they are quite frankly hilarious but get a fucking grip lol. If LFR makes you have such hissy fits don't fucking do it? This should resonate with you.....



Yeah me thinks you need to never set foot in LFR. Going by your post about being great at everything in the game i am not sure how Method or whatever world first guild you are in can spare you to run LFR?

[BiggestNoob]

The rest of your insane ramblings aside and boy are they insane.

Alright friend.

This diatribe just shows you do have an irrational hatred for LFR.

Since I've presented rational arguments against it, your insistence on using that word clearly indicates to everyone here that you have no interest in discourse or anything otherwise productive.

You can make all the ridiculous assumptions about me you like as they are quite frankly hilarious but get a fucking grip lol.

They aren't assumptions. You've confirmed everything I've said about you in your very own posts in this very thread.

If LFR makes you have such hissy fits don't fucking do it?

See that's the problem here, you can't actually think logically about anything. If you read my previous posts on this topic, I've said that LFR should have no rewards. It's meant to let people "see the content" as Blizzard likes to put it, but then you and people like you demand that things like queues be timely and rewards be substantial, and that ends up impacting people like me who get to "see the content" on mythic and have no interest in LFR.

If you don't want to play this game, don't fucking play it. Don't demand it be changed for the worse for everyone else.

Yeah me thinks you need to never set foot in LFR.

If that's your goal, I look forward to your advocacy against LFR containing any meaningful reward and actually being what it claims to be.

Going by your post about being great at everything in the game i am not sure how Method or whatever world first guild you are in can spare you to run LFR?

A titanforged tier piece from LFR is going to be better than a mythic warforged socketed piece. So yeah, I fully expect Serenity to be running LFR every week before the 2nd raid is out. Excellent design. I just hope they and every other mythic raider refuses to carry you idiots through it.

[Deadite]

Alright friend.



Since I've presented rational arguments against it, your insistence on using that word clearly indicates to everyone here that you have no interest in discourse or anything otherwise productive.

You are anything but rational. Your only argument is that you don't like LFR so fuck the millions that do. I think LFR in WoD is utter pish but plenty of people seem to like it.

They aren't assumptions. You've confirmed everything I've said about you in your very own posts in this very thread.

You say that i don't know how to play any specc, play for two hours a day ect ect. A whole laundry list of insane things. How did i confirm this gobbledygook? We are total strangers. You don't know what i know or what i do ingame. You think as i only do LFR now i must be a drooling imbecile. That bias is what makes me think you are irrational when LFR pops into your screen.

See that's the problem here, you can't actually think logically about anything. If you read my previous posts on this topic, I've said that LFR should have no rewards. It's meant to let people "see the content" as Blizzard likes to put it, but then you and people like you demand that things like queues be timely and rewards be substantial, and that ends up impacting people like me who get to "see the content" on mythic and have no interest in LFR.

If you don't want to play this game, don't fucking play it. Don't demand it be changed for the worse for everyone else.

Where did i make these demands? I am confused.

If that's your goal, I look forward to your advocacy against LFR containing any meaningful reward and actually being what it claims to be.

My only advocacy for LFR is for its its continued existence.

A titanforged tier piece from LFR is going to be better than a mythic warforged socketed piece. So yeah, I fully expect Serenity to be running LFR every week before the 2nd raid is out. Excellent design. I just hope they and every other mythic raider refuses to carry you idiots through it.

Hmm so everyone who does LFR is an idiot in your book? Interesting stance. I hope that Mythic raiders refuse to do it as well. I would rather take a 2 mins longer to kill a boss than have a shower of cunts with superiority complexes whinging the whole run. This thread is like Groundhog Day now and i hate quote wars. You are so far up your own arse you can probably taste toothpaste. So...

<snip>

[MoanaLisa]

Gamers didn't change

Of course people who play games change over the course of eleven years. In terms of age, the earlier they start the more they change. You're not the same person really at all at 24 than you were at 13. And what gamers play has certainly changed over the years with advances in technology, more choices in games and genres and many more gaming platforms. To say that something like gamers haven't changed is nonsense.

This doesn't even get into the thing that when you come to the game new you are likely to have a very different experience than after playing for years, learning the ins and outs of the game, its design culture, and any number of other things. Everything changes.

[Mlz]

Of course people who play games change over the course of eleven years. In terms of age, the earlier they start the more they change. You're not the same person really at all at 24 than you were at 13. And what gamers play has certainly changed over the years with advances in technology, more choices in games and genres and many more gaming platforms. To say that something like gamers haven't changed is nonsense.

This doesn't even get into the thing that when you come to the game new you are likely to have a very different experience than after playing for years, learning the ins and outs of the game, its design culture, and any number of other things. Everything changes.

You change, gratz. That doesn't change the fact that the majority of the potential playerbase has stayed roughly the same about which I provided data. The average WoW gamer in 2005 was already above 25 years old. I also provided enough information about how mmo-market has increased over time and how PC is still the main gaming device (app games are nowhere near + those researches count app rpg-s under app games). WoW wasn't the only mmo back in its time - there were other big names coming out at the same time but the game itself was better than others which made it popular. People are still extremely interested in WoW (see - WoD was the 9th best selling pc game in the USA) and willing to play it, but if the game sucks then it sucks - even if you keep telling yourself that the decline is because you personally (=the whole playerbase) changed. Your conclusions are nonsense.

Edit: and to you too, I'm not going to waste my time on trying to explain simple logic and deduction skills to someone who is really stuck in their own beliefs, so have fun and keep telling yourself that everyone who play this game started with lots of free time 10 years ago and are now grown ups with completely different interests and very little free time. That's also one of the reasons I don't argue with religious people.

[Deleted]

I didn't hold a position that people changed myself, because I think saying that the gaming world has changed is enough reason for the results you see about WoW to have changed, independently of any changes on the game itself. But, if we did entertain your claim that people have not changed, it's a pretty flawed argument. For example, your primary argument suggests that people were above 25 years old, but even if we entertained the thought that you imply that the age of players has not changed (I doubt it, but let's assume it hasn't), then it ignores the fact that everyone knew nothing about the game in 2004 but now a large portion of the player base has been around the game since around at least WotLK and that experience of the players in the game is a major change of the player base in itself.

Then you go on about the PC platform being a primary base of gaming, as if that implies the gaming scene hasn't changed at all at that.

In general you seem to be taking an extremist view, holding on some partial pieces of information to create absolutes.

[BiggestNoob]

You are anything but rational.

That's just like, your opinion, man.

Your only argument is that you don't like LFR so fuck the millions that do.

Please show me where I've made this argument.

I think LFR in WoD is utter pish but plenty of people seem to like it.

Citation needed. The data suggests this is false, and general sentiment suggests this is false. Therefore, to make this bold claim, you need to present evidence. Anecdotal evidence doesn't count.

You say that i don't know how to play any specc, play for two hours a day ect ect.

I never said you play for 2 hours a day. But yes, you don't know how to play any spec in this game at a competent level. That's incontrovertible. If you could, you'd understand how trivial normal is and do that instead of LFR.

Hint: if you have even 10 people pulling 50% DPS for their ilvl, even in Baleful gear, every boss on normal dies faster than LFR bosses do and it takes ~90 minutes to clear the instance.

A whole laundry list of insane things.

Such as?

How did i confirm this gobbledygook? We are total strangers. You don't know what i know or what i do ingame.

Except I do. Someone who thinks they need a 50 yard track to "do their weekly run" is probably not a marathon runner. You see? It's a logical deduction. I'm not sure if you're mentally up to the challenge of an analogy though.

You think as i only do LFR now i must be a drooling imbecile. That bias is what makes me think you are irrational when LFR pops into your screen.

No, it's this idea that you think the "ad hoc" nature of LFR makes it "good" content that proves that you must be a drooling imbecile. Instead of finding any shit guild that can do normal in 90 minutes and doing that once a week, you want to sit in queue for LFR, then get carried through it.

You can also just go grab a few bosses via LFG too and spend 15 minutes doing it, with a much shorter queue time than LFR. I don't recall an LFG pug that wiped on bosses on normal. Maybe it's happened, but I've never seen it happen, even on alts with no gear.

Where did i make these demands? I am confused.

Yeah but people don't want to do orginized raiding. They never have. They want to click a button when ever they want and for however long they want. You get a bite sized raiding experience with bit of fun and some loot if you are lucky. No fuss and commitment free.

You have the memory of a goldfish, friend.

My only advocacy for LFR is for its its continued existence.

You just claimed you didn't make these demands, and then here you are literally 5 seconds later making that same demand. How frequently do you enter a room and then wonder "what did I come here for?" Goldfish theory confirmed?

Hmm so everyone who does LFR is an idiot in your book?

That does not follow from the quote. "You idiots" is referring to you and people like you. The other people who are there are doing LFR to get the titanforged pieces and whatever other incentive (like 200 AP per wing or some obnoxious shit that Blizzard will certainly add to it) are surely not idiots, they're the people carrying everyone else and making the queue times go from the natural 2-3 hours per wing down to like 20-30 minutes.

I hope that Mythic raiders refuse to do it as well. I would rather take a 2 mins longer to kill a boss than have a shower of cunts with superiority complexes whinging the whole run.

No a wing would take 60+ minutes with no carries. With carries around it'll take around 10 minutes. I see you haven't even done LFR when it comes out and nobody has gear.

But yeah, you've got NO TIME AT ALL so you're going to go do the thing that takes more time. God you must have all the rank 1s, you're so incredibly good at this game that you only do LFR because mythic is too easy!

This thread is like Groundhog Day now and i hate quote wars.

Still waiting for you to provide evidence of any of your claims. Like even just one, man.

Peace bro, good luck in those LFRs. Thanks for the carry in advance!