Mass Shooting at Florida Gay Bar

[Felya]

EXACTLY. All three of the latest terror attacks this past week weren't REAL ISLAM because they're incompatible with my incredibly vague secular interpretation of Islam that almost no Muslim follows so Islam is not a concern. Finally someone gets it.

At which point do you win, by convincing everyone who is Muslim that being a terrorist is inherent to their beliefs? Because if there are multiple ways to interpret Islam, you are on the side of those who are trying to convince Muslims that this is part of the religion.

[Damajin]

No other country in the developed world has a comparable right. It's hardly the fundamental touchstone to freedom that Americans think.



I'm not even really arguing against it.

You just have to recognize that situations like this horror in Orlando are the necessary outcome of such a right. You have decided, as a nation, that everyone should have the right to be armed, and that doesn't just apply to decent people.

There are valid reasons for considering repealing or amending the 2nd Amendment. Stamping your feet and saying "NEVER, that's NUTTY" really isn't a counter-argument. It's just an appeal to emotion. That doesn't mean there aren't valid reasons to back your position, you're just not bothering to argue them.

Yet it's crucially important to Americans, fundamental to them. That's what matters.

I recognize that weapons can kill people, and that people are the problem not the weapons.

There are no valid reasons for considering repealing or amending the 2nd. That you think it's an appeal to pure emotion shows your one sided look at it. It's easiest to cast an emotional appeal but behind that is a great deal of mental and spiritual force and conviction that goes well beyond the emotional plea status.

No, I'm not bothering to argue them, there's no point. There's no valid reason to consider repealing or amending the 2nd. I really don't need to say anything more than that, and have zero interest in any debate that revolves around the notion. Certain things are quite absolute to me.

[Endus]

Yet it's crucially important to Americans, fundamental to them. That's what matters.

I recognize that weapons can kill people, and that people are the problem not the weapons.

There are no valid reasons for considering repealing or amending the 2nd. That you think it's an appeal to pure emotion shows your one sided look at it. It's easiest to cast an emotional appeal but behind that is a great deal of mental and spiritual force and conviction that goes well beyond the emotional plea status.

"Spiritual force"? That's exactly what I mean by an appeal to emotion.

It's a legal document. Words on paper. That's it.

If you have rational points, make them. Hand-waving and appealing to the supernatural like you did, right there, is not a rational stance.

No, I'm not bothering to argue them, there's no point. There's no valid reason to consider repealing or amending the 2nd. I really don't need to say anything more than that, and have zero interest in any debate that revolves around the notion. Certain things are quite absolute to me.

1> Safety of American citizens, facing some of the highest rates of gun crime in the developed world.
2> Amending the Constitution to reflect the needs of today, as was expressly intended by the Founding Fathers, rather than sticking to tradition as a non-argument.

Those are "valid reasons". You might not agree with them, ideologically, but that doesn't make them invalid.

[Surfd]

"Spiritual force"? That's exactly what I mean by an appeal to emotion.

Well, the right to own weapons of murder and death has practically become a "religion" to most americans, so I can sort of see the twisted angle he is trying to work. Doesnt make it any less insane to the rest of the world, but hey, who cares, right?

[Thepersona]

You anti gunners have already tweaked the shit out of it. I will not budge on giving anymore of my rights away.

I'd rather die fighting than on my knees. Molon Labe anti gunners

Tweaked? giving in your rights? what type of insanity is this?
after the lifting of the assault weapons ban you have the most lax gun control laws in many, many years
PD: the second amendment doesnt hold all the other rights together. the rule of law does

[kail]

2nd holds all the amendments together. Get rid of it and the rest go with it.

Fear not, a single sentence is not what holds all amendments, our constitution, or our society as a whole together. Especially a sentence written over 200 years ago.

[tylenol]

Tweaked? giving in your rights? what type of insanity is this?
after the lifting of the assault weapons ban you have the most lax gun control laws in many, many years

Not a big deal lifting it anyway, the assault weapons/LCM ban hasn't reduced the amount of gun murders so...

Although the ban has been successful in reducing crimes with AWs (they were rarely used anyway), any benefits from this reduction are likely to have been outweighed by steady or rising use of non-banned semiautomatics with LCMs, which are used in crime much more frequently than AWs. Therefore, we cannot clearly credit the ban with any of the nation’s recent drop in gun violence. And, indeed, there has been no discernible reduction in the lethality and injuriousness of gun violence, based on indicators like the percentage of gun crimes resulting in death or the share of gunfire incidents resulting in injury, as we might have expected had the ban reduced crimes with both AWs and LCMs

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/204431.pdf

[Thepersona]

Not a big deal lifting it anyway, the assault weapons/LCM ban hasn't reduced the amount of gun murders so...




https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/204431.pdf

but an assault weapon ban would make the an orlando attack scenario much more difficult

[Oktoberfest]

but an assault weapon ban would make the an orlando attack scenario much more difficult

Like it did in Paris?

[RickJamesLich]

It's more that any claims about "real Islam" are based on fearmongering and propaganda, not facts. Just like they would be if you started talking about "real Christianity" and citing abortion clinic bombings and the like. It's just nonsense.

Unless all Muslims agree with you, it isn't "real Islam", it's just a particular sect's interpretation, at best, and most of the things people take issue with aren't even that, they're regional or political.

Again; Malala Yousafzai is Muslim. If your views on what "real Islam" believe don't cover her work for women's rights and education in the Muslim world, then you don't have any idea what Islam actually is.

Real Islam? lmao, in a LOT of the muslim countries it's legal to kill gay people. This Orlando murderer by those standards was a good religious follower.

[Wells]

Like it did in Paris?

Alternatively, our extremely high rate of gun ownership is clearly not stopping them either.

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Real Islam? lmao, in a LOT of the muslim countries it's legal to kill gay people. This Orlando murderer by those standards was a good religious follower.

Yes, by the most extreme standards he was a great Muslim. I could say the same of christians who murder abortion doctors too.

[Oktoberfest]

Alternatively, our extremely high rate of gun ownership is clearly not stopping them either.
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Gun Free zones.
Lack of Open Carry or Permitless carry.

If a place wants to prevent customers from bringing in guns then they need to provide armed protection.

I say add MORE guns. Open carry everywhere as it should be.

If people dont like guns then they can get the fuck out of the country.

[RickJamesLich]

Yes, by the most extreme standards he was a great Muslim. I could say the same of christians who murder abortion doctors too.

What was extreme about what he did in terms of muslim ideology Wells?

[Thepersona]

Gun Free zones.
Lack of Open Carry or Permitless carry.

If a place wants to prevent customers from bringing in guns then they need to provide armed protection.

I say add MORE guns. Open carry everywhere as it should be.

If people dont like guns then they can get the fuck out of the country.

Open carry everywhere? are you nuts?
why americans love so much guns

[Eroginous]

Alternatively, our extremely high rate of gun ownership is clearly not stopping them either.

Clearly America's high rate of gun ownership has everything to do with a mass shooting in Paris.

[ati87]

Real Islam? lmao, in a LOT of the muslim countries it's legal to kill gay people. This Orlando murderer by those standards was a good religious follower.

Well since their are no gay people in muslim countries I'm not sure how they are killing gay people (that's usually the officials stance)

And what's allot of countries anyway? Is that 100 countries or 10 countries?

The shooting itself looks more like a act of self-hatred, seems the guy was gay himself. Their is allot of pressure and stigma of being gay, which isn't limited to the mulsim religion but also just the normal every da

[ThatsOurEric]

Truer words have never been spoken

And never have I been sadder that they are so true.

[Deleted]

What was extreme about what he did in terms of muslim ideology Wells?

He killed people.

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Clearly America's high rate of gun ownership has everything to do with a mass shooting in Paris.

No of course. It has to do with your third world rate of murders and gun related deaths.

[Deleted]

Meanwhile on the other side of the country:
http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2016/...htclub-attack/

[ShasVa]

So I read that the wife of the killer knew about its plans and did nothing. Also that it's (yes, "it", not "he") father incited it to violence.

Imprison the thing's wife for obstruction of justice.
Imprison/execute the thing's father for inciting terrorism.
Put the thing's children into foster care and change their names.

Obviously we can't bring the victims back to life. Nor will going Mortal Kombat on the thing's remaining family solve anything. That this even happened is very saddening. It's hard too, to not brand the entire Islam religion as one of violence, prejudice, and unadulterated evil. The very few that aren't evil are drowned out by the vast majority that are. So sad.

Curious though, how only the Abrahamic religions cause grief on a global scale! But that's a story for another time!

My thoughts to the families of the victims. That they're forced to endure this is unforgivable!