Are you satisfied with the current iteration of Ret in the Legion beta?

[Unholyground]

I think the only thing I would improve is the lack of procs that aren't annoying, there is still too much time when you aren't doing something meaningful.

[Deleted]

Remove the god awful Judgement system and I will be happy! Dont see why the change was needed, I thought WoD retri was in a really good spot!

[Snegovik]

That's a bit too dark for me thematically, but I hardly think my version is "cute" or "cuddly" Not sure what I even stated that would give that idea? Care to explain that?

I agree wholehearted that a retributions enemies should fear us, but the flip side of that coin is that in simultaneously, our allies should be inspired by us.

Well as was pointed out before, and i totally agree, that my version of Retribution Paladin is very dark, perhaps an extreme part of the light followers, where no grey area, its either you follow the path of light or you get slaughtered for your heresy.
So compare to my view of my "ideal" retribution brotherhood, yours looks much nicer and innocent =) u know?

So just in comparing your Paladin should strive to aid others by healing, devotion or increase of their moral and wearing a plate skirt =), and then you have my extreme fanatic holly warriors who wear pants =), were given to order when they were little boys at age of 8, they left at the gates their family names, heritage, wealth and were raised in violence and non-stop physical and battle exercise to become warriors elite, feared by both enemies and the alliance, they only know battle and bloodshed all their lives; hence, they have no use in their hearts for remorse or desire to be admired by others, their purpose in live is simple: battle and extermination of all heretics and sinful souls, along with everyone who gets in their way. Their holy book is their tools of war, their prayer is the war cry before battle and their serenity comes when last light escapes the eyes of slaughtered enemies around them.

[Deleted]

@Wrecktangle

You do realize we are playing and talking about world of WARCRAFT? Why the hell do you keep bringing "your sources" and other games about what it "could" be when you are playing the game with history and lore that already tells you what it is and should be?

Also your comments about mechanics and "what can it be" are just silly(to use much "better" word for what it really is).
Paladin is nothing like warrior... its not my fault that you cant imagine any other way of it functioning without doing something that they are not supposed to be doing. Also how only player paladins wear skirts untill Blizz made Tirion do so too in the cata to sell it to players... as he was also in full plate before that).
If you dont know the lore, are not familiar with actual paladins in the world of the game you are playing and what they do or even how they do it... then you shouldnt argue and talk bullshit over and over again. FF or whatever has no input at all here, as we are playing and talking about wow, not ff.

And then you talk how they shield heal and whatnot... please stop talking bullshit. They are KNIGHTS(and few priests trained as knights) that were trained in the way of light. They are PRIMARILY melee fighters, they do not occasionally attack, they are FIRST to run into battle and lead the charge, if they heal they do so while fighting and smacking people left and right. From lore: "Even some of the Alliance's greatest knights and warriors were in awe when they saw them smashing orcs down while healing fallen allies at the same time. Uther is the first paladin known to have manifested his powers on the battlefield." You see... they were fighters and it took time for them to even manifest powers of the light.

Its all there. Lore about literally every notable paladin in warcraft world says the same... even the most holy ones like like uther(as he was the most holy and castery of them all): "Uther strides directly into melee, placing himself in the center of the most brutal combat."
Turalyon: "Although he was initially a priest, Turalyon is a skilled and fearsome warrior and can fight as well as any knight. He, like Lothar, is usually seen leading contingents of knights, smashing aside any foe with his warhammer and his aura, spreading encouragement to his own troops and fear into the hearts of his enemies."

I have no idea where you people find these conjured weapons, casting, sitting back and stuff like that. And i have no idea why are we even discussing this? Its all clear and written by blizzard, information is there.
At this point have to say that you have to be troll, nothing else makes sense at all. You literally say "literally" and then claim that in lore they are something literally(man, so literally) OPPOSITE of what lore says they are. You clearly are a troll so im done. Yes, they are literally some of the best fighters and lead others while being first to charge into combat.

In Warcraft lore Paladins aren't terrifying melee fighters, they are literally just Holy Paladins. They heal, buff, shield and occasionally attack. Where in the lore do they have holy strikes? I couldn't find anything.

Wow, just wow... that is the silliest thing i have ever seen about paladins. They are literally opposite in the lore and every lore about them says the same thing i said yet you claim its this bullshit. LOL
Im done with trolls.

[Kuriyama]

I voted no. But it's more like a Vince McMahon "AWWWWWWWW HELL NO". It's the worst spec I've played on beta and I'm so disgusted that I'm looking at re-rolling from my main I've had since end of TBC. I absolutely hate the Judgement debuff gameplay and the lack of mobility/gap closers. I tried a Warrior on beta and they are so good it made me mad. I'd play one but my guild already has two Fury Warriors.....Currently looking at Warlock or Enhancement Shaman now....

I hate you, Blizzard. Thanks for ruining Ret Paladins.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

No, I fucking hate the colossus smash playstyle that Ret is now stuck with. If I had wanted to play a fucking arms warrior I would play a fucking arms warrior.

[Lucetia]

I voted no. But it's more like a Vince McMahon "AWWWWWWWW HELL NO". It's the worst spec I've played on beta and I'm so disgusted that I'm looking at re-rolling from my main I've had since end of TBC. I absolutely hate the Judgement debuff gameplay and the lack of mobility/gap closers. I tried a Warrior on beta and they are so good it made me mad. I'd play one but my guild already has two Fury Warriors.....Currently looking at Warlock or Enhancement Shaman now....

I hate you, Blizzard. Thanks for ruining Ret Paladins.

This is the way I feel in beta. I've played Paladin since Vanilla and almost considering benching my ret spec completely this time in favor of something else. Judgement debuff is annoying and you have to wait to spend HP just to ensure you get maximum damage on HP moves.

[Gloriandus]

I can say that in the short time I tested Ret out on the PTR last night, that I didn't find it to be fun at all. Right now, there's a lot of standing around, waiting to dump everything when Judgment is up.

Maybe the more haste you get, the better it feels? Maybe I just need to get used to the new rotation(s)? Maybe some of the laggardly gameplay will be remedied once I can get my UI set up the way I like it (WeakAuras, Bartender, and whatnot)?

[Morally Grey Storm]

Maybe spec should be playable, interesting and competitive before you get top tier gear, maxed out artifact and convince your raid you are not a liability with this tremendously greatest mobility or that greatly tremendous ability to swap targets?

I wouldn't know

[Zenislav]

Retribution needs complete rework same as enhancement got. Spec is dull and boring. If you need top tier set bonus, trinkets and stats to make spec bearable soemthing is definitely wrong. And there is also PvP that suffers from this.

Who even thought that having spec what generates combo points with skills / spells that have cooldown would work or even be fun must be delusional. Look at feral and rogue, look at any similar combo points spec from any other game...

And what i tried protection is not far from ret. It is less enjoyable version of warrior.

[Wrecktangle]

Well as was pointed out before, and i totally agree, that my version of Retribution Paladin is very dark, perhaps an extreme part of the light followers, where no grey area, its either you follow the path of light or you get slaughtered for your heresy.
So compare to my view of my "ideal" retribution brotherhood, yours looks much nicer and innocent =) u know?

So just in comparing your Paladin should strive to aid others by healing, devotion or increase of their moral and wearing a plate skirt =), and then you have my extreme fanatic holly warriors who wear pants =), were given to order when they were little boys at age of 8, they left at the gates their family names, heritage, wealth and were raised in violence and non-stop physical and battle exercise to become warriors elite, feared by both enemies and the alliance, they only know battle and bloodshed all their lives; hence, they have no use in their hearts for remorse or desire to be admired by others, their purpose in live is simple: battle and extermination of all heretics and sinful souls, along with everyone who gets in their way. Their holy book is their tools of war, their prayer is the war cry before battle and their serenity comes when last light escapes the eyes of slaughtered enemies around them.

Traits of a Paladin: Noble, Proud & Loyal. Possessing outstanding leadership qualities and well-mannered, but MERCILESS towards any threat. A Paladin believes in redemption by the Light, but is not so naive to know that some souls can only be saved by the end of a blade (or hammer).

That said though, you mention that they have no heart or need to be desired (I used need instead of want because typically Paladin archetypes are humble and don't want for anything) and I feel that is a key indicator that your idea of a Paladin is a little outside the box when compared to the archetype.

You do realize we are playing and talking about world of WARCRAFT? Why the hell do you keep bringing "your sources" and other games about what it "could" be when you are playing the game with history and lore that already tells you what it is and should be?

Pump your brakes dude. Why are you so angry? Actually if you want to be made to look like a fool again, you explicitly stated earlier that you aren't talking about WORLD of warcraft. That you draw the entirety of your inspiration for Ret from the old WARCRAFT LORE (where Ret wasn't even defined). You also completely negated the evolution of the Paladin archetype in the game WORLD OF WARCRAFT when I used it for my defense. Since I was unable to draw from the game in question, you too are unable to draw from it.

Also your comments about mechanics and "what can it be" are just silly(to use much "better" word for what it really is).
Paladin is nothing like warrior... its not my fault that you cant imagine any other way of it functioning without doing something that they are not supposed to be doing. Also how only player paladins wear skirts untill Blizz made Tirion do so too in the cata to sell it to players... as he was also in full plate before that).
If you dont know the lore, are not familiar with actual paladins in the world of the game you are playing and what they do or even how they do it... then you shouldnt argue and talk bullshit over and over again. FF or whatever has no input at all here, as we are playing and talking about wow, not ff.

So to be perfectly clear here, instead of DEFENDING your argument and citing examples you attack me personally. LOL that's hilarious. I'll just put another mark on the chalkboard where you had no actual defense and resorted to name-calling.

Moving on - your argument about plate skirts is absolutely hilarious. Can you cite a source that specifically states from a Blizzard rep that "Tirion was made to have a skirt so that we can sell cata to the players". Like logically that statement doesn't even make sense so again we have ANOTHER example where instead of using a legitimate defense in your argument, you make up some nonsense in a feeble attempt to state your point.

I know the lore fairly well, and I know Paladin's specializatiions were not classified in it. Also Blizzard made Uther a Holy Paladin dude, not a Ret.

Lore about Uther Lightbringer:
Uther strides directly into melee, placing himself in the center of the most brutal combat. He places himself in danger to spare his allies. He is at his peak against demons and undead, and brings his full array of spells and abilities to bear against these creatures — smites, banishing strikes, power turning, searing light from his hammer, hooks of binding and dispel evil.

So Uther predominately uses "spells", "smites", "searing light", "banishing strikes", etc. So using YOUR LORE its 100% clear that Uther is not just a martial warrior, but one who embraced the light and used spells and smites and searing light to rend his enemies asunder.

I'd say this description actually fits my idea of Retribution FAR more than yours.

Wrecktangle 3. genai 0.

And then you talk how they shield heal and whatnot... please stop talking bullshit. They are KNIGHTS(and few priests trained as knights) that were trained in the way of light. They are PRIMARILY melee fighters, they do not occasionally attack, they are FIRST to run into battle and lead the charge, if they heal they do so while fighting and smacking people left and right. From lore: "Even some of the Alliance's greatest knights and warriors were in awe when they saw them smashing orcs down while healing fallen allies at the same time. Uther is the first paladin known to have manifested his powers on the battlefield." You see... they were fighters and it took time for them to even manifest powers of the light.

The part you're missing is that you think I want Paladin to be Mage. Not the case. I don't want a Paladin to be in the back lines shooting spells. I also have no desire to play a Warrior either which is what you've been advocating. If you remove all traces of holy magic from a Ret, it literally becomes a Warrior. Thematically a WARRIOR who trains in the LIGHT becomes a Paladin.

Math: Warrior + Holy Magic = Paladin.

If you remove one, you get the other...

A true Ret Paladin (IMHO) is one who embraces their martial prowess and SUPPLEMENTS it with holy magic. That magic includes purifying foes with blades of pure light, burning enemies to ash with righteous fire, etc.

Wrecktangle 4. genai 0.

Its all there. Lore about literally every notable paladin in warcraft world says the same... even the most holy ones like like uther(as he was the most holy and castery of them all): "Uther strides directly into melee, placing himself in the center of the most brutal combat."
Turalyon: "Although he was initially a priest, Turalyon is a skilled and fearsome warrior and can fight as well as any knight. He, like Lothar, is usually seen leading contingents of knights, smashing aside any foe with his warhammer and his aura, spreading encouragement to his own troops and fear into the hearts of his enemies."

See above.

I have no idea where you people find these conjured weapons, casting, sitting back and stuff like that. And i have no idea why are we even discussing this? Its all clear and written by blizzard, information is there.
At this point have to say that you have to be troll, nothing else makes sense at all. You literally say "literally" and then claim that in lore they are something literally(man, so literally) OPPOSITE of what lore says they are. You clearly are a troll so im done. Yes, they are literally some of the best fighters and lead others while being first to charge into combat.

I never once mentioned CASTING, or sitting back. No idea where the heck you keep making this point up from.

A Paladin will lead a group into battle first, they will channel the power of the light to purify any threats using both might and magic. They do this from the front lines.

Wow, just wow... that is the silliest thing i have ever seen about paladins. They are literally opposite in the lore and every lore about them says the same thing i said yet you claim its this bullshit. LOL
Im done with trolls.

Fair point it does say banishing strikes. You got me there.

Wrecktangle 4. genai 1.

[Gloriandus]

Maybe spec should be playable, interesting and competitive before you get top tier gear, maxed out artifact and convince your raid you are not a liability with this tremendously greatest mobility or that greatly tremendous ability to swap targets?

I wouldn't know

Touché!

/10char

[meroko]

To the people voting no, are you just voting no because you feel gutted? It always feels that way with EVERY class at the start of a new expansion. let's not forget that the classes are tuned around having the artifact which I guarantee most of you have not even dipped into yet. Not to mention as it levels you'll get much much stronger. I for one think with the artifact + set bonuses we'll be just fine. It always feels like the sky is falling when you start, but trust me, it's that way with every class. Ret will be fine, and if it doesn't do fine they will tune it up. We're not broken, it's just a fresh start just like every expansion.

[Lucetia]

To the people voting no, are you just voting no because you feel gutted? It always feels that way with EVERY class at the start of a new expansion. let's not forget that the classes are tuned around having the artifact which I guarantee most of you have not even dipped into yet. Not to mention as it levels you'll get much much stronger. I for one think with the artifact + set bonuses we'll be just fine. It always feels like the sky is falling when you start, but trust me, it's that way with every class. Ret will be fine, and if it doesn't do fine they will tune it up. We're not broken, it's just a fresh start just like every expansion.

I'm voting no because the class is absolutely terrible right now. You hit your Blade of Justice/whatever talent replaces it and CS on cooldown. Then you judge when it's available and then blow your HP. If the debuff isn't there then you hold on to your HP sometimes getting more than the 5 thus losing dps if you spend it without the judgement buff. The spec is stupidly simple even taking Divine Purpose it still isn't much. I can literally sit there blindfolded and hit all the buttons needed to do the class and get near 100% uptime on judgement buffing. It's simply not fun and you are basically a warrior with holy damage. I can play a lot of other classes to achieve the same or better than what I am getting now.

Do I have Artifact maxed? No, but even if I did it wouldn't change the rotation or the way the abilties work. This is all negating damage numbers btw (that's a completely different story as my dps shouldn't be so low leveling it isn't funny; other classes can kill things in half the time with more ease). This is simply from a mechanics point of view.

Artifact + Set Bonuses shouldn't dictate if a class is viable or mechanically different from other classes. The spec itself should be defining that with Set bonuses changing things up.

Also I dislike the fact that the only way we can heal ourselves are Flash of Light (cast time, no reduction) and Lay on Hands unless you take Word of Glory, but you lose out on Eye for an Eye and Justicar's Vengeance (which I think is better because you get damage + heal for HP)

[Snegovik]

To the people voting no, are you just voting no because you feel gutted? It always feels that way with EVERY class at the start of a new expansion. let's not forget that the classes are tuned around having the artifact which I guarantee most of you have not even dipped into yet. Not to mention as it levels you'll get much much stronger. I for one think with the artifact + set bonuses we'll be just fine. It always feels like the sky is falling when you start, but trust me, it's that way with every class. Ret will be fine, and if it doesn't do fine they will tune it up. We're not broken, it's just a fresh start just like every expansion.

I believe that ppl who are voting no, both plaid this spec for a long time and know it very well to see the trend Blizzard established with Rets to know we are not ok atm and will not be ok in legion unless changes will be made. I have a question for ppl who vote yes, do you mind saying why you are satisfied with the spec is it cuz u like flashy animations or are you ok to be average or below average? I can't speak for every1, but personally i refuse to be average, I strive to be one of the best, hence it bugs me that the dps class I love & play for so long, simply does not and will not as it seems to have proper tools to compete with alpha dogs in rated arena (and I am not even mentioning RBGs…well cuz any pvp Ret knows why)

[unstableone]

Far too many weaknesses, more added in legion with no strengths given.

Mobility/utility/defensives are meh especially when you can't heal for crap. Bad for a class dependent upon self healing. Art of war, execution sentence healing gone. Word of glory flat out sucks.
JV bad on stun immune mobs and players that instantly trinket stun before your next gcd. Also based on damage done so if it's absorbed or reduced then it heals for nothing.

PVE damage is really low thanks to the penalty of greater blessings (which were also nerfed super hard.)


Fully expect to remain on the bench as ret for competitive anything.

[Niroshi]

Eh, after the last patch I'm fine with Ret. It's not really in a 'good' state but it's certainly playable. Surprised they haven't shaken up the talent system a bit more for them the way they have other specs.

Ret probably won't really feel good to me until it's given the Legion Enhancement treatment. They could copy every single thing about that spec and apply it to Ret and it would be a massive upgrade.

[Tyze]

I have no problems with Judgment and how it works. But I don't like the new Mastery.

[snackfeat]

The latest judgment changes did a lot to improve it, but it could still be a lot better.

[rubenmsalles]

Topic says SATISFIED. I'm not satisfied right now, more dissapointed, even doubt if i must keep playing this or move to whatevermobaishotnow (that's the goal of prunning, right?)