[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Deleted]

Regarding DPS losses (well, happens.. with 7.0 Level 100 is lowlevel, so most people won't care, but anyway):
HFC Trinkets have been nerfed.
Secondary Stats are lower - maybe to prevent overcapping stats, because multistrike is gone and they changed some stats on gear and well.. scaling.
What about Itemlevels? I remember discussions where it looked like HFC items would have the same itemlevel for the difficulty instead of the current system with different itemlevels.

[Teleros]

@rhegam...but hand of light is gutted....so....our generators dont hit as hard as live; you're high.

Indeed. CS hits for 130% on Live, x1.75 with full Mythic gear, plus Seal of Truth damage.

Ashes to Ashes barely did anything before this build!

It did reportedly make the rotation much better (no beta access here, just going by others' words), which makes sense. Once Hekili etc is updated we should be good with a moderate amount of haste it seems.

[Chaosinciter]

Another bug, Execution Sentence benefits from The Fires of Justice HP cost reduction but does not consume it.

[Deleted]

FWIW, Zeal is just as good, even slightly better than, TFoJ with current tuning.

I assume you mean in the beta because i don't see any way it can be on the PTR. I respect you alot, but even with ashes, i don't see how it can be better. Is this when hitting 2 targets? The rotation slows down so much that at least in single target in a realistic situation i would be very surprised if it did.
Either that or there are copious ammounts of haste at 110 that lower the CD to the 3 seconds.

[Teleros]

Is this when hitting 2 targets? The rotation slows down so much that at least in single target in a realistic situation i would be very surprised if it did.
Either that or there are copious ammounts of haste at 110 that lower the CD to the 3 seconds.

I assume in terms of DPS over time - Zeal hits quite a bit harder than Crusader Strike after all, so presumably that makes up for (a) the shorter CD and (b) the proc.

[Deleted]

I assume in terms of DPS over time - Zeal hits quite a bit harder than Crusader Strike after all, so presumably that makes up for (a) the shorter CD and (b) the proc.

Theres so much more downtime though. Those are only auto-attack damage. Theres no way that a bit of damage on Zeal itself makes up for all that HP, bigger number of hits and downtime. There has to be a catch with that statement. Must be at certain % levels.

I also don't see how ashes can solve Ret's rotational problems. Things will keep going out of whack. Nothing will change massively. It will only allow you to build up faster every 30 seconds. We definitly don't need anymore conservative feedback at this point. Sol is way too nice and understaning with Blizzard (or maybe is just planning to take advantage of the predictably difficult tuning of this design with a clever WA scheme ). Play any other spec and you will see that Ret simply doesn't flow.
This in itself goes against Blizzards objectives of making classes more acessable. No newbie will be able to play this spec effectively.

[Krippiz]

With 25% haste it doesn't feel to bad to me, even with zeal. A small bit of downtime isn't the end of the world. And if I'm taking zeal some of the other aoe talents seem to make it flow nicely and I seldom found myself waiting.

But target switching feels so bad when judge is not available and I have HP.

Edit: Even 19% haste feels fine to me, and 8s duration judge with 10s recast there isn't a big window when you can't use a spender.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

If they worry about accessability. They need to give an actual learning curve not well what's going on in the talent design but I digress. What's funny is, I believe the UI doesn't show *Core abilities* tab anymore. That was helpful to those new to the class and spec.


>.>

[garonne]

in my humble opinion (in beta and ptr) the spec at first felt awkward. when judgment was a 6 sec duration execution sentence was every bit of the word clunky to me and i hate that fucking word. i stopped playing the class and went to enjoy the others. after the change, and it is a positive change, it feels better. the rotation takes a while to get use to but once you do its not really a big issue.

ES is a l2p thing, once you figure it out, it feels a little better and muscle memory can take over
zeal and GJ produces a slower rotation and hence more gcds. they'll have their places, however tfoj is more "fun"
i have a problem with virtue's blade and blade of wrath, i dont think there's enough of a difference to justify both having a talent slot
not a fan of rng, but DP can be clutch and helps smooth rotation out at times. crusade is weak imo but i dont have legit numbers to back it up.

overall, im probably (90% chance) not playing my pally in legion as ive just found other classes/specs more fun + i dont like having 1 dps spec. but even after saying that, i think the spec will be fine. it has its issues in the talent tree (cons, VB/BoW, holy wrath) and it dependence on Wake of ashes with ashes to ashes and haste does make or break the class as without either it feels like a shitty diaper.

for the two problems mentioned above: target swapping and mobility. mobility is our weakness, maybe its too huge but i dont pvp so i cant really say however not many classes can unload when target switching without a bit of build up and with zeal and divine hammer, these will help with target swapping for ret. Zeal does 40-50% of a TV and if you have to target swap with mobs in close proximity, DiHa will help with that as well. its not perfect, but it feels workable for pve.

[Morally Grey Storm]

in my humble opinion (in beta and ptr) the spec at first felt awkward. when judgment was a 6 sec duration execution sentence was every bit of the word clunky to me and i hate that fucking word. i stopped playing the class and went to enjoy the others. after the change, and it is a positive change, it feels better. the rotation takes a while to get use to but once you do its not really a big issue.

ES is a l2p thing, once you figure it out, it feels a little better and muscle memory can take over
zeal and GJ produces a slower rotation and hence more gcds. they'll have their places, however tfoj is more "fun"
i have a problem with virtue's blade and blade of wrath, i dont think there's enough of a difference to justify both having a talent slot
not a fan of rng, but DP can be clutch and helps smooth rotation out at times. crusade is weak imo but i dont have legit numbers to back it up.

overall, im probably (90% chance) not playing my pally in legion as ive just found other classes/specs more fun + i dont like having 1 dps spec. but even after saying that, i think the spec will be fine. it has its issues in the talent tree (cons, VB/BoW, holy wrath) and it dependence on Wake of ashes with ashes to ashes and haste does make or break the class as without either it feels like a shitty diaper.

for the two problems mentioned above: target swapping and mobility. mobility is our weakness, maybe its too huge but i dont pvp so i cant really say however not many classes can unload when target switching without a bit of build up and with zeal and divine hammer, these will help with target swapping for ret. Zeal does 40-50% of a TV and if you have to target swap with mobs in close proximity, DiHa will help with that as well. its not perfect, but it feels workable for pve.

So to sum it up it would be:
Playable - maybe,
Enjoyable - doubtly

Isn't it great?

[garonne]

So to sum it up it would be:
Playable - maybe,
Enjoyable - doubtly

Isn't it great?

its more like

playable - probably
enjoyable - depends

[Bormec]

Tried a Mythic Iron Docks tonight, what I have found is I spent more time building Holy Power than being able to spend it. The Judgement window is a small little joke, and it's going to take a lot of time and effort to learn to use it as is. And even with the debuff, my abilities hit for unremarkable damage, and that's with mostly Heroic & Mythic HFC gear. The Prot paladin was doing 20k more dps than me for most of the run.

Now, there are factors here; used Blizzard's scrolling combat text, didn't have my addons, my talents were all single target, but boy was it disappointing to be doing 1/2 the dps I was on Live.

[Teleros]

Theres so much more downtime though. Those are only auto-attack damage. Theres no way that a bit of damage on Zeal itself makes up for all that HP, bigger number of hits and downtime. There has to be a catch with that statement. Must be at certain % levels.

Zeal does an extra 125% weapon damage (ie 178% of a normal CS), and the Fires of Justice proc will only happen on average once every 5 CS casts. So whilst Zeal may mean a bit more downtime... yeah I wouldn't be surprised TBH.

This in itself goes against Blizzards objectives of making classes more acessable. No newbie will be able to play this spec effectively.

Definitely agree here; frankly I think the Ret redesign has been a clusterf--- from day 1, and the new design is not going to be easy or particularly obvious for newbies:

"Do I use JV or TV?"
"So I cast TV at 3 HP? But Judgement lasts for longer, so... do I have to get to 5HP then do TV > CS > TV, or...?"
"Do I use TV outside of Judgement?"
"I pulled with Judgement and now my damage sucks!"
"I learnt Judgement at L1 and it was nice to pull with, but now I can't because of this mastery thing?!"
"My Greater Blessings keep dropping off."
"I picked Equality and got /gkicked."
"My 'W' key broke."

Etc.

[Anardel]

Tried a Mythic Iron Docks tonight, what I have found is I spent more time building Holy Power than being able to spend it.

Me too. I did some mythics (Shadowmoon Brial Grounds, Auchindoun and Everbloom) and most of the time, I run to the boss (with my new speed CD, aka pressing W hard) build HP, then Judgement, TV x2, CS, TV again; and started the cycle. When I used the second Judgement the boss was dead, I wasn't able to do two Judgement windows on the same boss. It's mind-destroyer because you know all your dmg comes from the window and if you weren't able to do it twice you know the boss is not dead thanks to your DPS, i.e they're carrying you even when you're 740.

On Everbloom the tank and healer were impressed with my DPS, oh pally, you did like 150k burst!! But no, I didn't. I buffed Might to an Arms warrior and the tank always pulled entire rooms, so "my DPS" was in fact the warrior burst doing Bladestorm. I was able to do one or maybe two Divine Storms per pull so yeah, that wasn't my DPS. And I hate being credited for the work of others, I'm a parasite, a DPS leecher?

The horn of Mannoroth, I wasn't able to stack more than 15-20 stacks when on Live I reach 30 stacks when debuff still has like 8-9 seconds. Archi libram was nerfed too so I don't know what trinkets are better now.... the Kormork peeble?

Ashbringer may improve DPS with that traits of "+ X% dmg to your wet nooddle attacks" but it doesn't change our rotation, doesn't do anything to transform it into something enjoyable or smooth.

The Ashbringer expansion is going to be one of our worst expansions ever. Better to deal with it now instead having false hopes.

[siccora]

well on ptr with the new talent but mythic gear on the time to get judgement back on is in between generating 5 holy power without any proccs.

i start with 0 hp.
CS, CS, blade, CS judgement
TV,CS,TV
and repeat
there is VERY little downtime in between that. again no proccs at all. so it feels ok'ish atm on the ptr.

[OrcsRLame]

Me too. I did some mythics (Shadowmoon Brial Grounds, Auchindoun and Everbloom) and most of the time, I run to the boss (with my new speed CD, aka pressing W hard) build HP, then Judgement, TV x2, CS, TV again; and started the cycle. When I used the second Judgement the boss was dead, I wasn't able to do two Judgement windows on the same boss. It's mind-destroyer because you know all your dmg comes from the window and if you weren't able to do it twice you know the boss is not dead thanks to your DPS, i.e they're carrying you even when you're 740.

On Everbloom the tank and healer were impressed with my DPS, oh pally, you did like 150k burst!! But no, I didn't. I buffed Might to an Arms warrior and the tank always pulled entire rooms, so "my DPS" was in fact the warrior burst doing Bladestorm. I was able to do one or maybe two Divine Storms per pull so yeah, that wasn't my DPS. And I hate being credited for the work of others, I'm a parasite, a DPS leecher?

The horn of Mannoroth, I wasn't able to stack more than 15-20 stacks when on Live I reach 30 stacks when debuff still has like 8-9 seconds. Archi libram was nerfed too so I don't know what trinkets are better now.... the Kormork peeble?

Ashbringer may improve DPS with that traits of "+ X% dmg to your wet nooddle attacks" but it doesn't change our rotation, doesn't do anything to transform it into something enjoyable or smooth.

The Ashbringer expansion is going to be one of our worst expansions ever. Better to deal with it now instead having false hopes.

On my Skada damage from blessing of might gets credited to the person it's on, not the pally that used it.

For trinkets I think Unending Hunger and Discordant Chorus are the best. All the trinkets have been nerfed, (I think it's about 50 ilvls worth) and with EDH stacking slower for us I just don't see it being worth it. Generally, I think the trinkets you'll want to use are trinkets that function at any ilvl, that is, in Timewalking Dungeons. That means Unending Hunger and either Discordant Chorus or the pebble.

Also guys, I did it. After over 100 pulls I finally got 2 DP procs during ring and 4 piece with a fair amount of crits to boot. Topped out at 210k dps. Virtually perfect RNG. On live I can hit about 250k on the target dummy with fairly average RNG.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

It's not going to be great but I doubt you will do well at all during WoD based mechanics. It'll likely differ in Legion. Not massively but something to note. Ashbringer won't save us, unless Blizzard changes the traits in next few months >.>

[Merrena]

well on ptr with the new talent but mythic gear on the time to get judgement back on is in between generating 5 holy power without any proccs.

i start with 0 hp.
CS, CS, blade, CS judgement
TV,CS,TV
and repeat
there is VERY little downtime in between that. again no proccs at all. so it feels ok'ish atm on the ptr.

Yeah I agree, it feels OK. I think the base of the spec is there and it works fine, but it still needs work, could use 1 more HP generator and Avenging Wrath needs something special too. Wings was cool before these changes because of being able to use Hammer of Wrath early, but now you just do more damage and you don't really notice it's even there when it's up.

In my opinion, the talents need almost a complete overhaul. There needs to be more talents that actually affect how the class plays. We also need more base AoE, instead of talents giving base AoE.

[tyronian]

Been combing through this thread looking for logs from the beta (or PTR now, honestly) to look at how people are playing with the new talents and rotation. I found some fairly recent logs from Thete, and some older logs from Ujx, but does anyone else have anything logged?

I tried just browsing the warcraftlogs site sorting by nighthold/emerald/mythics+ but -- lol, no surprise here -- only found 1 log out of 50 or so that had a ret in the group.

Anyway, just curious to see what different folks are trying out and how it's working.

Got on PTR for the first time last night and I nearly wept after 10-15 minutes of screwing around. Mainly I'm missing my on-demand burst (wings+hammer). I don't care as much about the slowness/clunkiness, but without hammer, avenging wrath/crusade feels gimped.

[Merrena]

For trinkets I think Unending Hunger and Discordant Chorus are the best. All the trinkets have been nerfed, (I think it's about 50 ilvls worth) and with EDH stacking slower for us I just don't see it being worth it. Generally, I think the trinkets you'll want to use are trinkets that function at any ilvl, that is, in Timewalking Dungeons. That means Unending Hunger and either Discordant Chorus or the pebble.

I still have a Mythic Warforged Vial of Convulsive Shadows from BRF. It's on use is now Haste and it gives around 17%. Feels really nice during burst to be able to get more TVs into a judgment with wings and the ring up.