The power gap in Legion will be even higher than WoD

[inxi]

Hey everyone.

To chime in on the conversation:

In my opinion it seems that the gap between fresh and fully geared dudes in Legion will be smaller overall, but will take a longer time to shorter/overcome by new toons.
Things like 30% power difference is still acceptable IMO since you can outplay a bad player at those stat differences.

During WOD the gap is huge, something like geared people being 2-3x more powerful than fresh toons, but that gap is overcome rather quickly due to fast honor farm in Ashran/BG's.


To me the biggest questionmark still is how long the Honor grind is going to take to Honor rank 50 for all talents, and if there will ever be a catchup mechanism for that. Prestiging and starting over should ofc remove any catchup bonuses etc. PVP talents are so huge on most classes that they alter the way you enjoy and play the spec hugely. So having those asap is more important than getting artifact unlocks (to me at least).

Just my two cents

edit: what I mean is, that Pvp talents unlock new abilities and stuff to keybind while artifacts are mostly just passive dmg bonuses. I'd rather get all my abilities asap and then work on minor passive dmg upgrades in the artifact tree. But since it is a PvE game, we will most likely just get artifact catchup and be stuck with half our pvp binds unused till honor 50

[SandMax]

Why in earth the power levels are still a thing in pvp? Even if its small % per ilvl past minimum pvp ilvl, it is still difference. If they wanted to make gear not matter, why not go all the way? Pvp is supposed to be all skill. Also the prestige levels are nonsense, it is so much grind to get the perks that should be BASELINE in pvp.

The way prestige perks should work is, that you have all of them always available just like talents.

[Coffeh]

I'm curious if the Legion systems for pvp are enabled on the ptr right now. As in...everyone's gear gets scaled and there's a very minor power difference given by gear. Because...I just did some bgs and man, everyone just gets 2-3 shot. I thought Blizz had said they wanted skill to matter? Maybe at 110 it'll be different, but at 100 it's just getting blown up in the blink of an eye.

[Livevil]

I'm curious if the Legion systems for pvp are enabled on the ptr right now. As in...everyone's gear gets scaled and there's a very minor power difference given by gear. Because...I just did some bgs and man, everyone just gets 2-3 shot. I thought Blizz had said they wanted skill to matter? Maybe at 110 it'll be different, but at 100 it's just getting blown up in the blink of an eye.

It's an after effect of this shitty system. Templates need to updated on a constant basis per spec to balance them out. Then the actual skill scaling need to also be tuned. Or vice versa.

For example my huntard inside BGs has the default shitty template stats everyone else has, but for some reason hits way harder with certain skills than compared to outside with way better stats.

On the contrary my affli/shadow/frost with the same default shitty template are straight up garbage inside BGs.

[Nopkplease]

Sorry, I've been away for ages now and haven't been following any of the legion discussions so I've just been trying to read through threads to catch up. Have a few questions, apologize if they have already been covered someplace previously on here.

1) Artifact Weapons - How exactly do you grind these to upgrade them? I know I read that you will gain the first 15 points or so while leveling to 110 but what about after that? Can you continue to level them only by running battlegrounds and arenas or will you need to still do PvE related content?

2) Relics for Artifact Weapons - From looking at the relic calculators, looks like you will get these which are similar to gems now. Where will you get these from and will there be ones that you gain by doing PvP that will have bonuses more relevant to PvP?

3) I've read in this thread everyone talking about doing battlegrounds to grind out their honor talents but what will you get from doing arenas now? Will you be able to grind out all of the talents in arena or will you still be forced to do battle grounds?

4) What sort of item lvl differences are we talking about between Mythic/Gladiator quality gear vs your basic entry level type of stuff? Will 2v2 rating matter for the gear or only 3v3/RBGs to get the higher quality stuff? I pretty much only have one friend left that I used to arena with from MoP that is still playing so we have just been doing 2v2 together to gear this past week since I just re subbed.

[Stormspellz]

So basically OP is whining about how people who invest more time than others get more benefits than them ? coz that's pretty much what it sounds like.

Obviously people who spend time on something should be rewarded for their effort, it's people like you who whine about wanting everything with no time investment or effort/skill that has brought this game to be the casual shitfest it has become.

True story.

The problem is we are talking about a competitive ranked situation, not grinding daily world quests, power gaps in competition between the same classes is horrible design.

[wholol]

The problem is we are talking about a competitive ranked situation, not grinding daily world quests, power gaps in competition between the same classes is horrible design.

I totally agree, but the issue is people don't seem to differentiate between fairness and ease anymore, that is the problem I am talking about.

The thing is, blizzard can make arenas not require gear at all, literally, and they can give all pvp talents to everyone from the get go, but this further backs the issue of no reward incentives for progression, what do people have to look forward to in pvp besides aiming for a glad/R1 in competitive pvp ?literally nothing, the only incentive to push to that end is the satisfaction of achieving it and only that, but you see the amount of people aiming / at glad/R1 level are so small compared to the general population you wouldn't even believe it, some people have never been close to 1.8k rating when the top is sitting above 3k.

So What would 99.9% of the pvp population aim for if not for those? the gear obviously, it's the closest thing to an achievement or reward they can get, the problem I am talking about is that blizzard fears that if they make thing even a bit closer to fair , it would demotivate pvp participation of the lower brass, which indirectly means a drop in pvp activities or lack of interest.

This means that ease of access to people even below the average is being provided in order to attract more people to the pvp scene, and since we all know blizzard is casual focused even the normal pvp level is even lower than it was due to this, which indirectly affects the pvp population, as the ease of entry rises the elasticity of demand drops, which impacts pvp negatively as a whole, time investment matters, having several layers of rewards based on rating matter because it increases the incentive to participate and improve.

This statement alone is the absolute core of what pvp is lacking these days, and I am not talking about grinding.

[Cinnamohn]

What did you expect with this guy in an influential role on the development team?



Combine his stance with those of some of the other fuckers on the team and this is the system you get.

[rda]

Hell, just look at how a lot of players talk about PvP. The idea that, "Well I put time into it, I should get stat advantages over you." is actually something that people say with a straight face. That should tell you how far removed from the idea of actual PvP these people are.

That's a product of multiple years of neglect and ineptness of the PVP team.

If they actually worked on balance, propped good decisions instead of bad (example good decisions: ilvl cap, conquest catch-up) and were more active overall, we could have PVP which is interesting because of skill and not because it gives you gear or achievements. Heck, we could have it so that raiders would cry bloody tears and beg them to redo PVE to similarly be about skill, following the PVP model (imagine the world first race being done in standardized gear, championships, leaderboards, real justified pride of "I did it when nobody else in the exact same conditions could", etc). But... it's Blizzard, what else is there to say. Stupid monkeys.

[Mafic]

Power gap is larger. Players with unlocked honor talents in the 2nd and 3rd columns wreck players with no honor talents or the first column of talents. Throw in some gear advantages and it is a train wreck of a progression system.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

Good post.

Let me add that this is not friendly to casual PVP players.

WoW has never been friendly to casual PvP players, ever.

[PrairieChicken]

It is hilarious to see how all the people who obviously do not pvp try to tell pvpers that legion pvp is goi g to be great

[Deleted]

No, you're wrong.

[Mafic]

The biggest mistake I see with the talents for PVP is the locked away vital defensive and offensive cool downs in the 2nd and 3rd columns.

This is a mistake in that players should have access to defensives in the first column since they are probably new players to PVP and once they learn they can trade defensives for more offensive power once they are comfortable.

Right now, players having defensive and offensive cool downs versus players with no cool downs is simply over powered.

I tried the PVP talent system on the PTR and at the moment I am on the final third column which took about a week or so to reach of hardcore play. For casual players, this will take a least 1-2 months..but they will probably give up before reaching the 2nd column.

[Jotaux]

I think it'll be funny to see all the QQ when it becomes apparent mythic geared raiders who maxed out their pvp talents shit on people in random BGs.

[wholol]

The greatest most powerful upgrade for pve or pvp is ALWAYS the weapon. Noone ever said "omg look at this guy's shoulders but everyone ALWAYS said "omg is that a perdition's blade (vanilla) or "is that dual glaives ? /faint etc etc.

Now that the weapon is artifact and people take care of it, it remains to be seen who does what in pvp but I doubt it will be game breaking for anyone. All the years in wow have taught us that regardless how "boosted" blizzard makes u feel the end result is you still need to hit target X amount of times before they die. Way it always was and always will be. I don't expect a huge gap or a huge compromise of stats. If you was 1500 u ll still play at 1500 and if u was 2400 u will still play at 2400.

There is a fallacy created that "hey this time it will be different" but no it won't be. If you re playing for 1500 u ll get 1500 AGAIN.

So, either change playing style or meet new and exciting people that can boost your team.

As for those at 3K. They trade games faster than dealers trade cards at zynga poker. Forget those twitch celebs who don't come out to play unless their opponent friends log in. These are the 2nd biggest problem after bots in wow.

I think you and I are talking about different things altogether, as for your weapon dilema, other pieces were in fact visually recognizable, especially shoulders/ head back in tbc when they had a rating requirement.

Regarding the topic at hand, I'm talking more about the pvp design and it's flaws rather than what expansion number X will be for pvp, the charade is always the same regardless of which expansion it is, people will still play at their respective rating range, but what I am trying to show people is that the current design does not encourage improvement in the slightest, and the rewards are not good enough to fix this issue.

[Mafic]

I think it'll be funny to see all the QQ when it becomes apparent mythic geared raiders who maxed out their pvp talents shit on people in random BGs.

Good news is honor talents take a while to grind. Bad news is that if you have mythic level raid gear and maxed out artifacts you can probably farm the honor talents out within a week by melting faces.

[Eroginous]

Everyone knows as a fresh 100 if you queue on a BG you are going to get obliterated, but it doesn't matter because you'll be fully geared in 2 days anyways. Now in legion Blizzard has created "pvp templates", so the power difference between a fresh 110 and a fully geared player is minimal. Or is it? You actually have to farm your artifact for months, and on top of that you have to farm your honor talents, and ON TOP OF THAT you gain power from your ilvl. Those things are a HUGE difference in power and it will take a shit ton of time for a new 110 to be on the same level as other players when we are mid xpac.
People with higher ratings will also get the benefit of higher ilvl, wich means there will be an extra power gap between players that doesn't exist now.
Has blizzard commented anything on this?, seems like they tried to solve a minimal problem with a system that has the same flaws but to a much greater extent.

Yes, they've spoken at length about the new pvp gearing system and how it relates to player power. The goals (as they've stated) is to make pvp about playing the game and not about grinding for gear, as it has been since Arena was added to the game. They understand the power delta between fresh level capped players and those who have done the required grind, and that's precisely why they are making these changes. Rather than get items that give you discernible stat increases you can leverage in a predictable way to gain competitive advantage, they are choosing to give you a preset template that replaces the competitive advantage you would have otherwise gained through gear prior to 7.0. This means that all players at the start of a season will be limited in their ability to leverage any advantages.

Instead of grinding gear over 2 days, you will grind your gear over the course of the seasons, casually, as you participate in other activities besides just pvp. You will get some gear from pvp too, but it won't be from every BG or arena, and it won't be something that gives you a huge power boost over any other player. The new system will keep you in-line by adding 0.1% stats for every ilvl your have above 800. So a player with ilvl 900 would have a 10% power delta over a player with an avg ilvl of 800.

Does that make sense? 10% is a significantly lower delta than it has ever been at any point in pvp history. And that's 10% delta earned over the course of a season or expansion, not in 2 days of play time. Furthermore, the way gear is awarded in Legion prevents any one piece from being BiS or able to be farmed. You just get gear. Randomly. With random ilvl. The only problem I see with the new system is the way Blizzard lets ilvl get out of hand in pve. We could be looking at ilvl 935 items by the end of the first pvp season, and without adjustments to the ilvl power contribution, that would give a fully geared raider a 35% power delta over a new player. I don't know if they are going to limit the power delta to 10% max (or something similar), or if they are just going to trust that only a few players will ever be able to attain such an advantage, making it okay for the general health of the game.

Time will tell, hopefully Blizzard manages to handle it in a meaningful way.

[SandMax]

Why have power delta AT ALL in pvp? Pvp is supposed to be about outplaying your opponent on even playing field, not about gaining artificial power ups from elsewhere and then overpowering. Rated pvp should absolutely be 100% even.

Now its even worse when you have to farm your pvp perks too on top of getting gear to be competitive.

[ElDoorO]

Why have power delta AT ALL in pvp? Pvp is supposed to be about outplaying your opponent on even playing field, not about gaining artificial power ups from elsewhere and then overpowering. Rated pvp should absolutely be 100% even.

Now its even worse when you have to farm your pvp perks too on top of getting gear to be competitive.

I agree but I also feel the same way about Mythic raiding. For competitive end-game, why aren't you handed BiS and those normalized?
By doing this you can't ever go back and cheese mechanics in Mythics and in PvP you know they earned that rank handily.

Randoms (dungeon, bg's, and Ashran-like content), normals, heroics, and World PvP I don't care about.

I once had, literally, the same gear as someone else (full epic rogue, chanted, etc). My ass was handed to me. I had, literally, no excuses for that loss. Turned out they were some obscenely highly ranked player -- I stood no chance. But it was REALLY cool because it made comparisons much easier for me to learn and I couldn't go "well they outgear me" and pawn it off.