BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Xarkan]

We voted in '92, '93, 2000 and '08..

To be fair we did not vote on the Euro in 93. In fact we specifically did not vote on it. Yes or no had the same impact on the Euro: we would not get it.

Also it is not quite "not a whisper" seeing as several parties have it in their program. A quick google finds LLR talking about it in 2011 in an interview, how we are probably going to have to reconsider it and implement it. There will be other times and other politicians

[Lord Berserker]

So yes, this is partly a pathetic attempt to bring back old glories which will never happen. Unlike 200 years ago you can't fuel your economy with conquest, slave trades and opium wars so good luck becoming a super power again.

Or, alot of it is based on not becoming a state in the united states of Europe, having laws written in brussels by unelected officials who might not even speak english.

[garr21]

I don't get the massive butthurt from people outside the UK on this, take this for example Germany says we will never be let back in, in a blustering display of childishness.
I cannot post link because my post count is not high
I was under the impression that the EU was a agreement to trade/live together with a chance to leave anytime not a ball and chain arround nations.

[Deleted]

Iunno, maybe UK blaming all their woes on the EU.

Poland got fucked by Germany and a few weeks later by the Soviets. Then even after the war they got fucked for decades just like many many other countries in Europe.

Odd though, never heard of polish suicide bombers or hungarians beheading western journalists.

[caervek]

Germany started 2 world wars to get back to old glories........

France killed a million Algerian to keep their empire intact........
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algerian_War#Death_toll

But they are not doing anything now are they? If what you said were true and Britain was simply acting out due to loss of empire then surely other countries who lost their empires around the same time would be doing the same?

The Brexit campaign is using the argument that it used to be a superpower as a way to counter-argue the need for a EU to be a strong country.

No it isn't.

Unlike 200 years ago you can't fuel your economy with conquest, slave trades and opium wars so good luck becoming a super power again.

That's quite insulting considering it was Britain that was responsible for ending the slave trade (we even paid other countries to follow our example).

[Deleted]

You can complain about the UK disliking the EU all you want, the simple matter of fact is the EU is not what the UK signed up for, we wanted a trading partnership, not a proto-state forcing regulations on our civil laws that stands quite rightly as something the UK would have little say in and would have nothing but bad impacts on the UK.

We already have little say in the undemocratic process of the EU, and with talks of unified EU army and such, why should the UK sit around paying for things it does not want?

So you're saying that UK should not stand for the contracts it signs and helps create. I know you've missed like 95% of the thread as you clearly didnt see people debunk alot of arguments you are using.

[Independent voter]

Are they doing exit polls?

[Deleted]

Some of our trade agreements with UK and France literally hindge on garbage countries like Romania being mad about pass port rules lol.

I love this argument - The UK has lost its sovereignty because the EU overrules it 2% of the time / The EU is shit, because they care about what individual member states want!

[Deleted]

Are they doing exit polls?

no/ 10chars

[stomination]

Yea...japan has a actually working economy that wasn't based around fake growth. Greece experienced growth based on hiring useless government employees that did nothing.



Germany started 2 world wars to get back to old glories........

France killed a million Algerian to keep their empire intact........
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algerian_War#Death_toll

The Brexit campaign is using the argument that it used to be a superpower as a way to counter-argue the need for a EU to be a strong country.

So yes, this is partly a pathetic attempt to bring back old glories which will never happen. Unlike 200 years ago you can't fuel your economy with conquest, slave trades and opium wars so good luck becoming a super power again.

I doubt anyone actually thinks they will become a superpower. Even Putin said that the U.S is the only Superpower right now.
Brexit is more about the economy and how easy it is for ppl to move from eastern Europe to Britain.

[Lord Berserker]

So you're saying that UK should not stand for the contracts it signs and helps create. I know you've missed like 95% of the thread as you clearly didnt see people debunk alot of arguments you are using.

Except they didn't because appealing to the European Court is still a thing in my country. Sounds awfully like civil law than trade agreement contracts to me.

[Mace]

The EU legislative process isn't secret, EU institutions are accountable, EU is more democratic than UK (EU being undemocratic ignorant moaning coming from UK is fucking hilarious to be honest) and you not knowing who the people in power are is you deliberately staying ignorant.

so you know what's been discussed? you know who's deciding what? You know the decisions that are being made and how they reach them right?

All you get to know is what they've decided as law. If you're talking about The EU parliament, remember that parliament does not decide anything, it debates things.

You can vote them out or otherwise replace them. Hell, two out of the four institutions working with EU legislation (well, European Council does so indirectly) are made up from member states' government's members. You don't see anything that the people with the real power do. The European Council, Council of Ministers, EU commission, all of these are closed meetings - i.e. done in secret, can't get records of their discussions or arguments or on who voted what where, how - just what they have decided

The idea that you are left out of the decision making process is simply more ignorance on how the EU works. And what do you think national governments do?

The point is when your governement barphs, you can kick em out, you hear their discussions and arguments, you have those checks and balances as you vote for your MPs, which you can petition you can actually follow them making your case, if they fail to do so you can replace them. Should you want change as a people your system is designed to do so. I think it cost us a l to get to that, I'm not about to throw it away.

Which is precisely why UK has the most exceptions, rebates and other shit like that (which they have proven they don't deserve in the slightest) out of all member states. Wait, that makes negative amount of sense.

When the UK was still negotiating its place in the EU having not fully committed and hung the threat of a referendum in front of Europe. As has been shown quite clearly that the UK has no power to get anything it wants anymore that wasn't part of those initial concessions, with its 1 foot in 1 foot out stance, if the UK votes in, it's going to have to fall in line too. And they've not hidden the fact that should the UK choose to stay in it is going to have to fall in line/

God forbid UK is outvoted in a democratic process. And lol at Britain not being independent.

It's better that you control your own governement you don't need Brussels or Strasbourg to do it for you or tell you what to do. Why stay for that? No thank you.

Weirdly enough, US abides by EU rules when they want to trade with EU just fine. I guess UK's superiority complex outshines that of the US. Achievement unlocked!

The way trading works is that if you want to trade with me, you have to abide by my rules and I have to abide yours, what point you are trying to make doesn't relate here, if the UK wants to trade with the EU it will have to abide by EU laws of that trade whether in or out. THat's not related to you being able to manage your own trade nor does it mean you need to be part of the EU to trade, it's got nothing to do with that, you don't need the EU to trae, and I am not just talking about trading laws. The economy is not the only thing that matters you know.

Yeah, fuck educated people knowledgeable in what they are talking about. The peasant in Cornwall knows better than them! Power to ze people! And of course Brexit supporters have stronger arguments than those "scaredy cats". Totes! UK stronk!

Listen to people, research information yourself, make up your own mind, you don't have to listen to what an expert is saying just because he is an expert, hear what he says and consider it and think about it.

Don't be blind and go, ... oh.. that's an expert, he knows everything, i'll just listen to what he says. NOOOOO !! ... Hear him out, and consider for yourself, you don't need an expert to make up your mind for you. Stop being lazy and cowardly, consider yourself, reach your conclusions.

EU is actually a front for the Illuminati Reptilian overlords. True story. Only stronk sovereign UK can see ze truth.

how would you know, do you know any of the people running the various different bodies in the EU? Are you in their meetings? do you know what they do? where they go? who they see? what they say? waht they believe in?

if you want to give your power to them, it's your right ofc, but are you sure that's what you want? are you sure that's a good thing?

Companies first of all want to get involved in the most profitable markets. Brexit will make UK less profitable so some of them can shift trade elsewhere. And you do need trade agreements to trade with EU.

aww, you make it sound like all trading will cease, sure companies want more profitable markets, but they want markets,.. if people will buy their goods in the Gambia, they'll go and sell in the Gambia because they make more moeny, If Britain leaves the EU, regardless of what politician says, Fujistsu is still going to want to sell its goods in the UK, it's not going to say "oh, Birtian is no longer in the EU, I'm not going to sell their"
Neither would Volkswagon and it's in the EU.

Because UK is so known for their resistance against corporate lobbies That's why they hate EU's legislation about workers' or consumers' rights. Hell, even human rights. Because UK is... a paragon of justice...? Yes, that! UK stronk, woo.

Is it easier to fight corruption when you the common folk can vote corrupt governemnts out and install people you trust to positions of responsiblilty or is it easier to do so in a beast like the EU where it's so convoluted, un-elected, and should you want them out because of their rubbish sub-par or corrupt behaviour you have no power to actually change the EU body. Yes, you can vote out your governement, you can't vote out the EU governing bodies. We don't need to be in Brussels to manage our own corruption, we have our system in place, thank you very much which empowers me the citizen to be able to do something about it that I cannot in Brussels.

Since when is EU deciding about everything? Subsidiarity is a thing that exists. One of the cornerstones of EU legislation even.

the body of legislation and rules for so much, it feels like everything, it's an un-necessary burden and restriction...and why? because some expert in Brussels feels that that is best for me in Britain... no thank you, I can decide in Britain, I don't need Brussels/Strasbourg for that.

Yes, the EU Illuminati are just like Hitler. Damn, your perception found out their real plans. Must be all the tinfoil you wear on your head, no doubt. Now UK will resurrect Churchil and beat the Reptilians into submission, because UK stronk.

better to be independent with a tin foil hat than to be subject under that anyway.

Churchill was bred you know, dont' count on a other Churchill's not arising, as long as people are willing to stand up for their rights. You can't kill hope.

That's all fine and dandy, but the member states are sovereign.

They don't need to be a part of the EU, they are losing too much being so, too much power that belongs to the people are being signed over, I say, take it back. if you have a choice, use it to ensure theat your decsisions are in your hands, not someone elses you don't have any say over.

[Lord Berserker]

I love this argument - The UK has lost its sovereignty because the EU overrules it 2% of the time / The EU is shit, because they care about what individual member states want!

Or we lost sovereignty because we had to accept laws created in an undemocratic process we have less say in than Spain.

[Deleted]

Regardless of weather or not the EU gets to spend the money it is accounted for in the 160bn figure.

no its not.
The rebate is never paid to the EU, and consequently never enter into its budget.

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Didn't know the CIA worked for us, and all this time I thought it was a western thing >.>

It was a joint OP.

[Deleted]

Except they didn't because appealing to the European Court is still a thing in my country. Sounds awfully like civil law than trade agreement contracts to me.

You didn't just sign up for that. But if you think UK shouldnt honour what it signs just say it, say that you're an honorless country.

[caervek]

You can complain about the UK disliking the EU all you want, the simple matter of fact is the EU is not what the UK signed up for, we wanted a trading partnership, not a proto-state forcing regulations on our civil laws that stands quite rightly as something the UK would have little say in and would have nothing but bad impacts on the UK.

We already have little say in the undemocratic process of the EU, and with talks of unified EU army and such, why should the UK sit around paying for things it does not want?

100% on the money, well said that man.

[Deleted]

no its not.
The rebate is never paid to the EU, and consequently never enter into its budget.

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It was a joint OP.

You were against mass migration right?

Do you not remember the EU threatening all countries that did not want to take in all those migrants? And you support that?

You support Austria getting threatend that they only want to tak in 40k in a year?

[Xarkan]

You didn't just sign up for that. But if you think UK shouldnt honour what it signs just say it, say that you're an honorless country.

They can choose to leave, that is their right.

[Lord Berserker]

You didn't just sign up for that. But if you think UK shouldnt honour what it signs just say it, say that you're an honorless country.

Because the rules were changed undemocratically? I'm sorry. But here in the UK agreements are supposed to go both ways for fairness. We wanted trade. We didn't want fines for not accepting immigrants, the Euro or an EU army.

What happens if we vote remain and the rules are changed again? Are we supposed to roll over and let the EU take our Military away?

We didn't vote for anything like this, It's undemocratic and the UK has little to no power in the EU.

The EU is a weighted deal against the UK, always has, always will be. The EU has always been Anti-UK.

[minteK917]

I love this argument - The UK has lost its sovereignty because the EU overrules it 2% of the time / The EU is shit, because they care about what individual member states want!

IT is shit, but not for that. Might wanna read the clown joke i was quoting. The UK could and will be able to do trade agreements without the EU, the EU gives it little on that front. I was pointing out that it loses deals as much as it wins them because of the EU. If you think countries in proxitity to the UK will stop all trades because of its exit, its just your wishful thinking. Why is Canada and Mexico not a states of the USA yet? I mean clearly it would broker much better deals. Hell why arent Japan, China and USA not a single country? So much trade going on!!! Must be all a single entity to trade!!!!!!