Murky world of PC game key reselling exposed by indie developer

[Vespian]

Ok so you clearly have no idea what you're talking about - cards identified as used for credit card fraud have the transactions reversed. This is often what we mean when we say chargebacks.

This means the developer gets NO MONEY.

Yeah, that's what I said, maybe re-re..re-...read it.

In other words, only the sales that occur through CC fraude get the developers no money, but this is only true for a minor percentage of total sales on resellers.

[Tech614]

Yeah, that's what I said, maybe re-re..re-...read it.

In other words, only the sales that occur through CC fraude get the developers no money, but this is only true for a minor percentage of total sales on resellers.

So where is your numbers that prove it's only a minor percentage?

[Vespian]

So where is your numbers that prove it's only a minor percentage?

I live in a world where there is; NOT GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN

Proof I'm wrong, then we'll talk.

[Edge-]

I am in no way a fan or even use G2A. All I am saying is a significant portion of their business is legit, and is simply people selling unwanted games from bundles.

Fun fact, the TOS of Humble Bundle that you agree to on purchasing states that the keys received are not for resale purposes. I'd have to check others, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are similar clauses. Not to mention that most of G2A's best selling games have never been in any bundle anywhere. So no, not only is folks reselling their unused bundle keys not legit, but most of the keys for major games have no guarantees that they come from legit sources, either.

Like for example if his game is $2 on G2A and 1000 people buy it, but he sells it on his site for $20. He did not ´lose´ $20,000 because a huge percentage of the people who bought it for $2 were never going to buy it for $20. You can´t simply say $20 x 1000 is how much he lost.

This is true, but it's the only real comparison to make. It shows the extreme end of how potentially harmful these gray market resellers can be to developers who make games that we enjoy.

Credit card fraud is the problem, and shutting down G2A would do nothing about that, the people who steal the credit cards will always find a way to get quick cash from cc balances.

Yeah, it's a problem, but because another marketplace would just pop up (or folks would move to another existing one) isn't a reason to try to get folks to not use it or to try to crack down on the marketplaces taking advantage of it.

I live in a world where there is; NOT GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN

Proof I'm wrong, then we'll talk.

https://twitter.com/devolverdigital/...rc=twsrc%5Etfw

Well, nothing Devolver Digital publishes is legitimately sold through there, if you want some proof. That's also if you want to pretend all those "too good to be true" sales that G2A has on major games really are just that good and true because they're all legitimately purchased, honest!

[Tech614]

I live in a world where there is; NOT GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN

Proof I'm wrong, then we'll talk.

Ah okay let's make it more simple for you then.

Find one single game publisher on the planet that has come out and said anything to legitimize G2A.

Ignoring that you got rekt above by Edge, let's see if you can even manage that.(spoiler alert, he won't because no publisher has)

[Vespian]

https://twitter.com/devolverdigital/...rc=twsrc%5Etfw

Well, nothing Devolver Digital publishes is legitimately sold through there, if you want some proof. That's also if you want to pretend all those "too good to be true" sales that G2A has on major games really are just that good and true because they're all legitimately purchased, honest!

As bad as that is and honestly, I'm a fan of DD, that's one developer claiming all keys are stolen.
- We cannot ignore the fact that this doesn't have to be true. Regardless of its legitimacy, they're undercutting retail prices bigtime, which inevitably means less profit. We're dealing with several agenda's here.
- We can't ignore the fact that we don't have all the facts. Is it 100%, is it 75%? Is it any number large enough to warn for the entire collection?

That said, I'll go along with what you're saying. Let's assume 75% of G2A's keys are stolen, for the sake of it.

If that's the case, why aren't they down yet? And I'm not gullible, I realize some shady corp will get raised the second one goes down. What should be done, if they are largely illegal, is together all publishers should team up and disable all illegitimate keys at once, from all resellers that might offer these. If they do that, the backlash will be on the reseller, not on the publisher or developer. If they keep doing this monthly, like a D2 ruststorm, there won't be resellers in 3 months time.

But they don't. No formal complaints have been made. No legal program has been started. No proof has been presented. The fact that companies let the likes of G2A proceed as they are, means that they're at least largely legal.

Find one single game publisher on the planet that has come out and said anything to legitimize G2A.

I might get Rekt by some here, but Edge is not one of them. Well.. besides the mod tag.

As I said, there's overlapping agenda's to consider. If I were a publisher, I wouldn't want my games to legally go for 50% price either. Of course they're not going to come out and publicly legitimize by proxy.

[Tech614]

As bad as that is and honestly, I'm a fan of DD, that's one developer claiming all keys are stolen.
- We cannot ignore the fact that this doesn't have to be true. Regardless of its legitimacy, they're undercutting retail prices bigtime, which inevitably means less profit. We're dealing with several agenda's here.
- We can't ignore the fact that we don't have all the facts. Is it 100%, is it 75%? Is it any number large enough to warn for the entire collection?

That said, I'll go along with what you're saying. Let's assume 75% of G2A's keys are stolen, for the sake of it.

If that's the case, why aren't they down yet? And I'm not gullible, I realize some shady corp will get raised the second one goes down. What should be done, if they are largely illegal, is together all publishers should team up and disable all illegitimate keys at once, from all resellers that might offer these. If they do that, the backlash will be on the reseller, not on the publisher or developer. If they keep doing this monthly, like a D2 ruststorm, there won't be resellers in 3 months time.

But they don't. No formal complaints have been made. No legal program has been started. No proof has been presented. The fact that companies let the likes of G2A proceed as they are, means that they're at least largely legal.

Once again ignoring the fact G2A is a puppet company in Hong Kong and doesn't have to adhere to western laws.

There is a reason no company like G2A exists in the US or Canada or Germany or England or Sweden as minor examples. There is a reason 2 european dudes created the company in Hong Kong.

How do they get away with it? The same way puppet corps get away with selling you counterfeit and knockoff merchandise which coincidentally also comes mostly from where? OH YEA, HONG KONG.

[Vespian]

Once again ignoring the fact G2A is a puppet company in Hong Kong and doesn't have to adhere to western laws.

There is a reason no company like G2A exists in the US or Canada or Germany or England or Sweden as minor examples. There is a reason 2 european dudes created the company in Hong Kong.

How do they get away with it? The same way puppet corps get away with selling you counterfeit and knockoff merchandise which coincidentally also comes mostly from where? OH YEA, HONG KONG.

You're not reading.

[Jtbrig7390]

Once again ignoring the fact G2A is a puppet company in Hong Kong and doesn't have to adhere to western laws.

There is a reason no company like G2A exists in the US or Canada or Germany or England or Sweden as minor examples. There is a reason 2 european dudes created the company in Hong Kong.

How do they get away with it? The same way puppet corps get away with selling you counterfeit and knockoff merchandise which coincidentally also comes mostly from where? OH YEA, HONG KONG.

Its almost like China/Hong Kong gives no fucks about the laws of any other country.

Remember the Warcraft ripoff theme park they made with the knockoff Lich King.

Anyone got a link to that trailer it was golden since it was nearly a 1:1 of the wrath trailer.

[Tech614]

You're not reading.

Sure I am.

You're under the delusion your favorite NFL player gets compensated when you buy a counterfeit version of his jersey from Hong Kong, oh wait no I mean you're under the delusion that your purchases on G2A actually compensate game creators.

[Vespian]

Sure I am.

You're under the delusion your favorite NFL player gets compensated when you buy a counterfeit version of his jersey from Hong Kong, oh wait no I mean you're under the delusion that your purchases on G2A actually compensate game creators.

No, I'm offering a solution to shutting them down, which you apparently skimmed over.

Maybe you should reign in your horse a bit.

[Tech614]

No, I'm offering a solution to shutting them down, which you apparently skimmed over.

The only solution for shutting them down would be locking down your keys much of the same way most of the keys for XBL/Eshop/PSN digital games are locked down. And people like you would lose your shit if publishers did this.(I personally wish they would)

You offer no solution, the real solution would be for educated gamers to stop turning a blind eye and supporting it but I doubt that day will ever come.

[Jtbrig7390]

No, I'm offering a solution to shutting them down, which you apparently skimmed over.

Maybe you should reign in your horse a bit.

There is only one thing they can do really and sad to say its anti-consumer.

Region lock keys. As soon as that happens it will show they are getting keys via illegal means because there will be no way in hell they can sell a US key for 70% off the US MSRP price.

So if consumers don't want this to happen (Because mark my words it will) then consumers need to educate themselves on this shit.

[Vespian]

The only solution for shutting them down would be locking down your keys much of the same way most of the keys for XBL/Eshop/PSN digital games are locked down. And people like you would lose your shit if publishers did this.(I personally wish they would)

You offer no solution, the real solution would be for educated gamers to stop turning a blind eye and supporting it but I doubt that day will ever come.

No I won't, illegal is illegal. Proof it, whichever way, and end it. Letting it go is saying it's ok.
You will be hard pressed to find someone more objective or honest than me.

And yeah, my example will hurt consumers, maybe even twice. But then they would wise up and stop paying resellers and thus end their reign.

Oh and P.S. Region-locking is not a counter-counterfeit measure, it's to prevent people from obtaining the keys cheaply. Still legal.

[Edge-]

Things like G2A or Kinguin exist for the simple fact that a lot of games these days are overpriced, buggy shit that end up having DLC spilling out all over the place.

Overpriced? Base games are cheaper now, when you account for inflation especially, than they've been in the past. I still remember paying upwards of $80 for SNES games in the 90's.

DLC can be good and it can be bad, some companies do it right some do it shit. Bugs happen, that's why there are patches. Some games like Homefront are just going to be buggy trash while plenty of others get tons of post-launch patching to deal with those issues. For free.

When devs or, more specifically, publishers get a grip on themselves, things would change. Not overnight or 100% but, they'd change.

And for the publishers that put out games that aren't buggy, don't have tons of overpriced DLC, and are good? It's fine that they get screwed alongside those that you feel "deserve" to be screwed?

[Asmekiel]

Wait, are you seriously having a go at people who buy games cheap on stream? Fucking hell.

Yep, that's what this whole thread seems to be about. Just bitching and moaning, claiming every key offered through G2A is stolen.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh sorry, I forgot one part. Everyone buying keys through G2A wants devs to go bankrupt.

[Edge-]

Yep, that's what this whole thread seems to be about. Just bitching and moaning, claiming every key offered through G2A is stolen.

Nobody has made the claim that every key is stolen. But G2A was built upon and still largely profits from the sale of either stolen keys or keys not intended for resale (bundled keys). That's the issue, that the core business model that the site began with and still thrives on (beyond selling "insurance" that's provided for free on other digital distribution sites and withholding preorder bonuses without telling people until after the fact so they can sell them separately) and people seem more or less totally fine with it.

Oh sorry, I forgot one part. Everyone buying keys through G2A wants devs to go bankrupt.

No, but it means that you care more about getting a cheaper key than making sure the developers of the game you are about to (hopefully) enjoy get paid for their hard work and effort.

[Unholyground]

Games are overpriced in a saturated market, I think that is the big issue now, it is one of the reasons I love Nintendo because they don't have a game coming out every single fucking week and it gives me time to save to buy them lol.

[Tech614]

Games are overpriced in a saturated market, I think that is the big issue now, it is one of the reasons I love Nintendo because they don't have a game coming out every single fucking week and it gives me time to save to buy them lol.

The fuck are you talking about? Nintendo is one of the largest publishers in the world and in most years publish more retail games then likes of EA or Ubisoft.

[Edge-]

Games are overpriced in a saturated market,

People keep saying this, while base game prices haven't changed in over a decade (despite inflation) and digital deals have gotten better and more frequent. DLC is more prominent/common now, totally agree, but it's often times useless faff that's totally unnecessary.

it is one of the reasons I love Nintendo because they don't have a game coming out every single fucking week and it gives me time to save to buy them lol.

Erm, Nintendo releases more first party games than any other platform manufacturer, it just doesn't get third party support. That's ignoring that you don't need to buy all the major releases for any platform, and that the 3DS/Wii U still have plenty of game releases on them if you count all the smaller stuff coming out.

That's entirely a personal problem, not an industry problem.