Subs: Will they start reporting #s again?

[Kolvarg]

^ So, it's the usual fallback excuse that "their goal as a corporation is to make money"? An embezzler's goal is to make money too. Or any merchant who sells an item falsely hyped. Or a guy doing 3-Card Monty on the street. Or any number of bullshitters that you can name.

Yeah we all want to make money. Duh. Water is wet too.

Our concern as consumers is to get the best value for the product/service we want. It's not in our best interests to support a company that increases profit by deception or making the products it sells worse or of lesser value than it was - just because that company wants to "make money". Their profit margins are their problem, not ours.

Sure. But our concern with getting the best value for the product/service (which should actually be having a fair value for a product/service we deem good) has nothing to do with the seller's feelings. If you get embezzeled, you won't really care wether he did it for the money or because he enjoys doing it. If you get a good product, wether it was made just for the money or out of love probably won't influence your experience of it - what's good is good.

Every damn product can be considered "falsely hyped". It's called marketing. And that attitude is just playing victim. They didn't hype people. It isn't really possible to "hype" people directly. It was people that get hyped (and help each others get hyped) over X or Y announcements/trailers/reasons. No one was forced to play the expansion or to subscribe to the game. Beta was given to a lot of people and footage of it was not restrained. Anyone who likes to be cautious had plenty information and time to have a decent judgment on wether to play or not. And anyone that cares about value for their money can wait for the expansion to go into discount or even until the next expansion release where the last one is added to the battlechest.

The matter of fact is some people got excited about it, but it turned out to be not what they thought. Welcome to life. If a waitress at a diner tells me their strawbery-flavored icecream is very good, and I pay for it only to discover I don't really like strabery-flavored icecream, my go-to attitude probably shouldn't be to be angry about how the waitress deceived me saying it was good only to get my money.<

It wasn't a great expansion, most likely the worst so far. But it was still an enjoyable experience well worth my money. And it's fine that some people have a different opinion. Just be a little more humble and at least keep in mind the possibility that it isn't the developers purposefully trying to trick you into giving you their money. It's ok to not like things.

[Caolela]

Now you're saying that it's not possible to hype people directly? And every product is falsely hyped?

You don't see the blatant silliness and contradiction in those statements, and the fact that they're complete unreality? Not to mention the many times Blizz has hyped and later gone back on what they've said, even after a launch, with any number of convenient excuses behind it or sometimes not even a word said at all?

Next you'll be telling us that the world is flat and pigs can fly.

"Hey guise...we don't have rocks in our heads!!"

[Kolvarg]

Now you're saying that it's not possible to hype people directly?

You can try to, by giving reasons people might get hyped over. But no, you can't directly hype people like it's an on or off switch.

And every product is falsely hyped?

Every damn product can be considered "falsely hyped". It's called marketing.

Care to read what you're replying to, next time?

You don't see the blatant silliness and contradiction in those statements, and the fact that they're complete unreality? Not to mention the many times Blizz has hyped and later gone back on what they've said, even after a launch, with any number of convenient excuses behind it or sometimes not even a word said at all?

So your reply to 4 pharagraphs is picking 2 phrases you can mock, one of them being heavily distorted by your own words and not actually what I said, instead of actually adressing what I'm saying and trying to have an actually interesting conversation. And there's no actual contradiction, btw.

That's a side effect of trying to be transparent on what their plans and wishes are for the game. People like you forget the fact that they're just plans and wishes, not a sale contract, and then victimize yourselves because you can't take responsibility for forming a misconception on your own and spending money because of it.

But oh well, if you want to believe Blizzard is out to trick you into getting your money, who am I to stop you? You do you.

[Caolela]

"Actually interesting conversation" when you're in complete denial mode, compared to what we've seen for years from Blizz?

I've pointed it out several times in this thread and elsewhere. Anyone with half a brain and is honest has seen it in the game, and it's only gotten worse as they've begun to run out of ways to increase sub times or easy-mode casual playing while providing less content. Making Garry 2.0 and calling it "Order Halls" is one of many examples. Artifact wep grind, the whole PvP grind mess (while lying that it's to make gear "not matter" lol), pretending that they ban botters when it's lame 6-month bans and not permas (coincidentally only after they put WoD into the Battle Chest for $20. making a new acct. cheap to get). On. And on. And on.

What's amazing is that anyone who's played WoW across more than one xpac still buys their horseshit and justifies believing it. Incredibly stupid.

[Segus1992]

There is one (1) scenario where they'll start reporting subscriber numbers again, and that is if that decision is a good business move. I'm sure most of you realise what that means, to at least some degree.

[Kolvarg]

"Actually interesting conversation" when you're in complete denial mode, compared to what we've seen for years from Blizz?

I've pointed it out several times in this thread and elsewhere. Anyone with half a brain and is honest has seen it in the game, and it's only gotten worse as they've begun to run out of ways to increase sub times or easy-mode casual playing while providing less content. Making Garry 2.0 and calling it "Order Halls" is one of many examples. Artifact wep grind, the whole PvP grind mess (while lying that it's to make gear "not matter" lol), pretending that they ban botters when it's lame 6-month bans and not permas (coincidentally only after they put WoD into the Battle Chest for $20. making a new acct. cheap to get). On. And on. And on.

What's amazing is that anyone who's played WoW across more than one xpac still buys their horseshit and justifies believing it. Incredibly stupid.

More blanket statements and judgements based on your personal opinion / interpretation of facts, and the general idea that people who don't agree with your extremism have a polar opposite opinion to yours. Extremism is bad, it stops people from seeing both sides of things, and that's what you're doing. And when you do that you block all dialogue, because anything said agaisnt what you believe in, even things that in a normal conversation should be addressed, is just automatically "denial mode".

I don't find incredibly stupid that people pays for a game they enjoy. If anything I find it quite weird to linger around a game (and its forums) you don't enjoy anymore. Either way, your experience is your own, and you being disappointed, angry and overall salty at the game and Blizzard, doesn't mean that's how everyone else should be. Also doesn't mean that everyone who isn't salty at them absolutely loves them.

But that's enough off-topic and, as I said, you do you.

[Caolela]

More blanket statements and judgements based on your personal opinion / interpretation of facts, and the general idea that people who don't agree with your extremism have a polar opposite opinion to yours. Extremism is bad, it stops people from seeing both sides of things, and that's what you're doing. And when you do that you block all dialogue, because anything said agaisnt what you believe in, even things that in a normal conversation should be addressed, is just automatically "denial mode".

I don't find incredibly stupid that people pays for a game they enjoy. If anything I find it quite weird to linger around a game (and its forums) you don't enjoy anymore. Either way, your experience is your own, and you being disappointed, angry and overall salty at the game and Blizzard, doesn't mean that's how everyone else should be. Also doesn't mean that everyone who isn't salty at them absolutely loves them.

But that's enough off-topic and, as I said, you do you.

It isn't "personal opinion / interpretation of facts", it's actual facts. Anyone can check what I've said, along with several other issues that Blizz has hyped and lied about over the years and find that they have indeed done just that.

Repeating a lie or fallacy or deception over and over won't make it any less false. There are some gullible people however that will start believing something if they hear it enough times, especially if it comes from some kind of "authority" figure (like a Blizz dev or CM). That psychology is what companies like Acti/Blizz depend on.

I didn't buy WoD until last Dec. when it was cheap, and had been out since 5.4. Even then I didn't think it was worth $12.50 + sub fee; at most it should be on the Steam bargain list for $4.99 and no sub IMHO. I leveled my main to 100 to support my twink enchants mainly, while I saw that almost all on my B-tag list were gone from the game, including guildies, raiders, and PvP'ers I used to group with. I unsub regularly and go F2P, except to get the last PvP mount which I'll have before the season ends then I'm done with max level PvP - because Rated is a cesspool of cheats/hacks, even worse than what I saw in MoP. I haven't activated the free 90 yet because what's the point, the game is basically shit now and will be even worse from what I've seen of Legion. I won't buy Legion but if I do sub occasionally it'll be just for twinking.

Blizz has shown that they have their own agenda (profit and profit only) and will not listen to customers, until/unless there is a mass exodus and huge outcry that forces their hand. Even then, they'll try to squeeze another nickle out of something that gets changed if they can.

[Tharkkun]

All well and cute for Blizz, except that the gym probably didn't lie or mislead during the previous year about what their "upgrades" would be before you bought the next yearly membership. Then when you go in you find it bears little resemblance to what they had advertised.

Keep fanboying.

Blizzard didn't lie. Like the gym analogy you just disagree with the direction Blizzard is taking their gym. It's the same thing. You're so emotionally invested that you can't tell the difference.

- - - Updated - - -

I never mentioned anything about timescales I simply asked where did the additional 6.7 million sales, that you claim were made, come from.

Quite honestly you have no idea what you're talking about. How do you suppose that 10million copies of WoD were sold when Blizzard have never claimed to have sold that many copies, their P&L shows no such income and, perhaps most importantly, approximately half of their customers don't have to buy expansions?

Come on man. If you're actively playing the game it should be obvious. The old zones were and are still dead since the expansion launched. So it's safe to assume they purchased the expansion because the players are in Draenor. The Garrison problem is another clear indicator that the people were in Draenor and not all chilling in Blasted Lands or the Jade Forest. Subscriptions surged because players wanted to experience the new content. Not level alts.

- - - Updated - - -

"Actually interesting conversation" when you're in complete denial mode, compared to what we've seen for years from Blizz?

I've pointed it out several times in this thread and elsewhere. Anyone with half a brain and is honest has seen it in the game, and it's only gotten worse as they've begun to run out of ways to increase sub times or easy-mode casual playing while providing less content. Making Garry 2.0 and calling it "Order Halls" is one of many examples. Artifact wep grind, the whole PvP grind mess (while lying that it's to make gear "not matter" lol), pretending that they ban botters when it's lame 6-month bans and not permas (coincidentally only after they put WoD into the Battle Chest for $20. making a new acct. cheap to get). On. And on. And on.

What's amazing is that anyone who's played WoW across more than one xpac still buys their horseshit and justifies believing it. Incredibly stupid.

Does it pain you so much that people other than yourself are entertained by a video game you hate?

[Pann]

Come on man. If you're actively playing the game it should be obvious. The old zones were and are still dead since the expansion launched. So it's safe to assume they purchased the expansion because the players are in Draenor. The Garrison problem is another clear indicator that the people were in Draenor and not all chilling in Blasted Lands or the Jade Forest. Subscriptions surged because players wanted to experience the new content. Not level alts.

What? Seriously? Blizzard announced 3.3million sales for WoD in the first 24 hours, this is in line with sales of previous expansions, the fact that there were many people in the new zones is in no way proof that they sold 10million copies as you claimed. If this is what you are basing your claim on then you have even less of understanding of expansions sales than I first thought.

[Gadzooks]

There is one (1) scenario where they'll start reporting subscriber numbers again, and that is if that decision is a good business move. I'm sure most of you realise what that means, to at least some degree.

That's way above the pay grade of most of the participants of this thread, especially those who always filter things through the lens of "it's an attack on ME".

Blizzard, like any corporate entity, will use whatever information they can gather that benefits them, and disregard/cover up that which doesn't.

And, they're hardly alone in that regard.

Falling sub numbers did not tell the story they wanted to their investors, so they stopped reporting them. It has nothing to do with players, or anyone else - it was to reassure investors, and keep the stock price up. Investors can be flaky as hell, and if the herd bails on the stock, it's hard to reverse, in the short term.

Blizzard made a mountain of money last year, even with falling subs for ONE of their games. And that game still profited, because of 3rd party transactions. So that's the story they're telling, not sub numbers.

If you have a problem with that, well, I don't know what to tell you. It's PR, intended for an audience you're not part of. Hey, I liked seeing sub numbers, but in the end, they don't tell the story that matters - that Blizzard and their financial security and job security is pretty rock fucking solid right now, so buy our stock, it's a good investment.

[Caolela]

Blizzard didn't lie. Like the gym analogy you just disagree with the direction Blizzard is taking their gym. It's the same thing. You're so emotionally invested that you can't tell the difference.


Does it pain you so much that people other than yourself are entertained by a video game you hate?

Yeah...but no. I like the game, I don't like what Blizz has done to it and has allowed it to become. Blizz has lied or been deceptive repeatedly as I've said above, and for example on its continuing to allow hacks/cheats in PvP (who openly brag about their deeds on Blizz's own forums), when Blizz seems to have no problem banning instantly and severely in Overwatch. Why? Because OW is a new title and they need to have it go well for at least the first few months, to please investors and to gain back the initial money Acti put into it. If OW was seen as a cheater's haven right from the git, they'd quickly lose sales and have no sub fees to back up the loss. With WoW though they can keep making money on subs, so the hackers still flourish.

That's just one of many issues. It has nothing to do with "emotionally invested"; it has everything to do with I (and many others) have the right to use the product we've paid for as intended, not having to tolerate a bot-infested cesspool, or join them, or quit using the product.

[Relapses]

Yeah...but no. I like the game, I don't like what Blizz has done to it and has allowed it to become. Blizz has lied or been deceptive repeatedly as I've said above, and for example on its continuing to allow hacks/cheats in PvP (who openly brag about their deeds on Blizz's own forums), when Blizz seems to have no problem banning instantly and severely in Overwatch. Why? Because OW is a new title and they need to have it go well for at least the first few months, to please investors and to gain back the initial money Acti put into it. If OW was seen as a cheater's haven right from the git, they'd quickly lose sales and have no sub fees to back up the loss. With WoW though they can keep making money on subs, so the hackers still flourish.

That's just one of many issues. It has nothing to do with "emotionally invested"; it has everything to do with I (and many others) have the right to use the product we've paid for as intended, not having to tolerate a bot-infested cesspool, or join them, or quit using the product.

You have the right to have an expansion designed to exactly the specific standards you would enjoy yet you're completely ignorant to the glaring possibility that what you enjoy may not be what the majority of WoW players would enjoy. (Or more to the point, the very possibility some of the changes in the game's direction have been made implicitly to appease the majority of players with whom you do not identify.) I've said this before and I'll say it again. You do not speak for all WoW players and your belief that Blizzard acts only for themselves is so heavily influenced by your own personal vendetta against them that it discredits any argument you make. You're not being objective about this. You're waving your finger disapprovingly and pretending you speak on a moral high ground which you yourself have invented.

[frymastermeat]

Yeah, let's get those sub numbers so this site can be filled with illogical statements about how the game is dying after every expansion peak starts to wear off.

Meanwhile at Rockstar:

"Fellow developers, it has come to my attention that only about one in ten of the people that bought GTA5 are still playing the game. The GTA series is officially dead."

[Mormolyce]

A lot of people on these forums seem to think those sub numbers were released for the purposes of our stupid internet pissing contests.

In reality, they were released in shareholder quarterly updates, because for a long time Blizzard's main revenue stream depended on WoW, and it was a good metric for comparison with other sub based MMOs in the market (where data was available - always pretty limited). Now that Blizzard has so many other pokers in the fire and the MMO market has changed dramatically, it's no longer really relevant. They appear to have actually made more money in recent years than they did when subs were at their peak, so it's not a metric of particular interest to shareholders.

They might still announce milestones but I doubt they'll be doing it with any regularity. Just like they occasionally release estimates of Hearthstone players etc, but don't report anything regularly to shareholders.

Most companies don't make that kind of data public on a regular basis.

The last time this was discussed, the general consensus was that most people don't give a shit about sub numbers and the value of the data is lessened due to the WoW token skewing information.

It doesn't skew anything, every token used = one purchased sub. Actually, a $20 sub rather than a $15 one.

- - - Updated - - -

Hopefully your ilk will learn when you're being lied to by a bunch of carnival barkers whose only concern is to separate you from your money for the least amount in return. And they don't give a shit how they do it.

Welcome to the real world of grown-ups and corporate greed. Activision/Blizzard is no different just because they make video games. It's just 'product' to them, like any other widget. If some of you were not so naive, you'd understand why they have a former lawyer (Ion/Watcher) in charge of development, or why they allowed asshats like Jay Wilson to do what he did to D3 and WoW, or Holinka with Ashran and now Legion PvP. The list goes on.

Millions know the many times Blizz has made claims or promises and later reneged or not delivered, or simply pulled a ninja. No opinion needed since those are facts. You might have realized that's why we have these "Will they start reporting sub #s again?" threads - if you weren't still living in kindergarten fairy tales.

GL, Skippy!

Thank god you're here to defend me from my own taste in video games.

Because I wouldn't be able to notice that I don't like a game anymore and stop playing it on my own.

[Halicia]

Blizzard made a mountain of money last year, even with falling subs for ONE of their games. And that game still profited, because of 3rd party transactions. So that's the story they're telling, not sub numbers.

3rd party transactions ? I don't think you know what that term means, but yeah.

Noone cares how many people ate your burgers in an earnings report. They care about how much money you made off those burgers.

The only people that really care "how many?" are the marketers trying to groupthink you into believing that someone is great because so many people have tried it.... and those that want to win some illusory argument and tell ya that something is bad because so many people stopped trying it.

[ComputerNerd]

Revenue also includes "microtransactions" (including paid services), that can be up to 25% of it. And "microtransactions" can't be treated as measure of success, cuz F2P games for example can have minority of so called "whales", that can donate thousands of dollars, but overall game have just 4K players. No. Only number of active subs - is real measure of success. Revenue - is measure of financial success, which is important for investors and game developers themselves, yeah, but not for players, sorry.

And why is it a "real" measure ?
It wasn't broken down by region, had too little granularity over time, and wasn't showing tokens vs traditional subscriptions.
Plus there is the potential for players on a direct debit subscription to be less willing to stop than those who have to do so more manually.

Players only want to see it so they can hate on blizzard when the numbers decline, as "proof" of whatever their latest gripe is.
Any rise is an excuse to rant at the "casuals".
Nothing positive has come out of any figures previously, so why would it in the future.

[Relapses]

It doesn't skew anything, every token used = one purchased sub. Actually, a $20 sub rather than a $15 one.

It muddles the numbers far more than standard subscriptions would. While you can absolutely quantify the number of subs bought with tokens, it devalues the entity of a monthly subscription since it moves the bottom line away from a standard, uniformed measurement and more towards a gross lump-sum bottom line figure (ie, a shift from 5M subs @ $15/mo being reported to simply $75M/mo in gross cyclical revenue from subs being reported). The gross bottom line is all investors care about and thus the need to describe the exact number of subscribers is less important.

[Mormolyce]

It muddles the numbers far more than standard subscriptions would. While you can absolutely quantify the number of subs bought with tokens, it devalues the entity of a monthly subscription since it moves the bottom line away from a standard, uniformed measurement and more towards a gross lump-sum bottom line figure (ie, a shift from 5M subs @ $15/mo being reported to simply $75M/mo in gross cyclical revenue from subs being reported). The gross bottom line is all investors care about and thus the need to describe the exact number of subscribers is less important.

Well the sub numbers were never supposed to be some kind of profit-and-loss figure, they just threw that in there as an indication of how well WoW was doing. You already had East vs. West subs, and those work differently.

The lack of relevance to the bottom line is likely the reason they stopped reporting the number altogether.

[Deleted]

I couldn't care less. As long as the game is fun to play, for me, I pay the Sub, and play. As long as there are enough subs to keep the game rolling, all is good. I am not an investor, interested how much money they make.

[Pann]

Yeah, let's get those sub numbers so this site can be filled with illogical statements about how the game is dying after every expansion peak starts to wear off.

Meanwhile at Rockstar:

"Fellow developers, it has come to my attention that only about one in ten of the people that bought GTA5 are still playing the game. The GTA series is officially dead."

Seeing as GTA is primarily a single player game and its business model is not dependent on players paying a recurring sub fee I fail to see the relevance of your point.