Remove LFR : FatBoss point of view

[Deleted]

People's obscene iLvl requirements for Normal and the quite toxic mentality in LFG groups do put some people off. However, as someone who is just barely good enough to kill Mythic Archi on my main (the only Arms warrior that LOSE DPS in Execute phase, go me >.>) and ATM run some LFR and some pugs to get the ring and gear on my alts, alot of the issue comes down to "already have the achive to join or gtfo". Rarely do I see "Come and learn!" groups, thinking about starting hosting some myself however. What they do say about how LFR impacts new players is correct however. Being able to kill the final boss of any game, let alone an MMO, AFK, is actually retarded design. Pre-nerf LFR Archimonde was decent, except people refused to learn. Force people to ACTUALLY learn using the LFR tool or remove it, as it otherwhise literally does not serve any purpose than free gear. Like, fuck sake, TANAAN is more effort than LFR! And that just should not be a thing. ><

[Deleted]

Wanna know whats funnier? I am sure if you actually communicated with Mythic Raiders the stance would actually be: Get rid of it. Merge it into Heroic. Call it a day.

LFR Whiners do the exact fucking opposite and no matter how much evidence is thrown into there faces that the Difficulty needs major changes if it is going to stay around they just bitch about Mythic Raiders. Its literally strawmanning because you have no fucking argument. Its hilarious.

Err, i can try explain this better. I raided every difficulties, i want all of them to stay. Why you are so salty (i don't even like this term by the way)?

[ceall]

Completely true video. LFR, which is anti-social and requires no thinking at all has no place in MMO, it offers nothing of value. And yet they backed down and gave tier sets AGAIN to LFR, wtf?

That's because they want us real raiders to carry the lfr crowd, as we could MAYBE need a 4th piece, to get our set bonus or the BiS trinket, which, on lfr quality, is still better than any other trinket obtainable on higher difficulties due to raw power gain.

[Deleted]

It's all artificial anyway.

Right now, the difficulty levels are ilvl tiers for the most bit.

Honestly, I'd just get rid of 2 difficulties and just leave the top end and a simple easier version of it that is flex-style. Whereeas the harder one stays a fixed size.

But this thread is going places.

And I love how some people are too ignorant to realise the reality, meaning and the way the existence of this utter nonsense affects a lot of other things. I'm not talking about LFR only, I'm talking about the 4-mode bull...

[Deleted]

Fixed that for you. Only PEOPLE can be antisocial not a thing....

That's not true. Features can be designed to be anti-social. For lolz lets say that if you kill lower lvl players you get gold. The more difference in levels the more gold you get. 100 vs 90? you get 10k. 100 vs 10? You get 90k gold.

Wouldn't you say that is anti-social feature?

[Allenseiei]

Fixed that for you. Only PEOPLE can be antisocial not a thing....

Bullshit form an LFR Hater.
Its more like

A tool that incentives solo gameplay and works as the escape mechanism for antisocial players. Nitpicking in sophistry won't make it less true.

It's not for wannabe high end guilds, most top 200 world guilds players will run LFR to get tier bonuses. If you can't even get that, then you are very narrow minded and a waste of time to talk to. Well I knew that the moment you said "hater" as your top argument to dismiss mine.

While its true that i disagree with LFR, I've already accepted it being around.

[Eleccybubb]

no they wont - good players will first farm max level mythic + dungeons alongside with hc raid on alts and then jump straight to mythic - the only ones doin normal will be tryhards who are to bad to clear mythic + dungeons but will need tier sets and trinekts from normal to do anything higher then mythic 2+ and true causals who dont give a single fuck about hc modes and are perfeckly happy with lfr being in game.

Ehhh I'd say they would jump straight into Heroic. Isn't Mythic still gated by a Heroic clear these days?

[Dhrizzle]

I do like it when people argue that LFR should be removed because it is nothing like raiding and pointless whilst simultaneously being so much like raiding it makes higher difficulties pointless.

I like LFR because it allows me to finish the fight against the enemies I'm fought all expansion and grind out some loot (mostly cosmetic thanks to Tanaan) without much drama over people failing to respond to mechanics or pull their weight damage-wise. Yes I miss out on the sense of challenge and progression from "proper" raiding and skip straight to having it on "farm" status but I still get the satisfaction of improving how I personally handle each encounter as I gain experience.

For me LFR has taken the place of the heroic-grind in WotLK as a low pressure, low effort way to get new gear, however it offers more variety and challenge than queueing for the same handful of easy 5-mans that we overgeared almost as soon as we entered.

[Paula Deen]

Err, i can try explain this better. I raided every difficulties, i want all of them to stay. Why you are so salty (i don't even like this term by the way)?

What the fuck are you saying? Speak English. The Fat Boss Video said LFR has problems and needs fixed. This thread is full of whiny LFR Kiddies crying that they wanna remove LFR and that is bad and you should remove Mythic instead.

Its classic deflection and strawmanning. Nothing in this thread has suggested in even a minor amount that people actually care what the video was about, they just want to defend something wildly for no reason. Personally, I don't care either way. I hate Mythic. It killed my guild which killed multiple friendships I had on the game for quite some time. I hate LFR. It is setting a bad example for what World of Warcraft is supposed to be about. Do I want them removed? No. Do I want them fixed and or merged into other difficulties? Yes.

By what account am I salty? On the contrary it is you who seems upset. I simply pointed out the absurd hypocrisy of the people posting in this thread.

[Deleted]

Fixed that for you. Only PEOPLE can be antisocial not a thing....

Bullshit form an LFR Hater.
Its more like

... You do realize, that up until WoD, even semi-serious guilds DID force thier raiders to get the tier bonuses, even if it was from LFR, because they are always obscenely powerful?

Aswell as the fact that yes, people can be antisocial and not the feature itself. But when the feature requires you to literally do NO COMMUNICATION AT ALL, when you are playing it with 24 other people, then yes, that is an antisocial tool as it reinforces that behavior.

I get it, I will assume from this post that "I pay the same amount so I should be able to do all the content" which you still can, Normal is literally a fucking joke at the moment and requires VERY little talking, only bosses that are usually horrible to pug is Iskar and Socrethar (cuz nobody actually decides to figure out who is taking the Eye or dedicatedly killing the Ghosts cuz people do not communicate enough >.>) and everything, literally EVERYTHING else, is a fucking pushover, even in 670-685 gear.

[Deleted]

Ehhh I'd say they would jump straight into Heroic. Isn't Mythic still gated by a Heroic clear these days?

Start of expac, you'd actually step into normal because the ilvl gap is just... yeah.

Some go heroic though but doesn't matter. Can also do normal too.

[Deleted]

LFR isn't mandatory anymore because Normal mode does everything LFR is supposed to do in a better way.

No, it doesn't. With being able to queue for it, LFR fills a different niche than Normal. They should absolutely keep it.

[Sansnom]

It gives the impression that it's raiding (because of its name). It isn't; it's closer to a scenario. But it's sold as another "tier" of raiding, which to me makes raiding in general less appealing. The whole point of raiding as I see it is to conquer difficult content with a group of people. Queing into a random group for easy content and calling it raiding waters down the whole game.

To them, it is raiding. Maybe it is not raiding to you. But why do you care?I play football in the park. I play football in a small gym. I have never played football as the pro do in a full size pitch. Am I playing football?

Nothing has been taken from higher difficulty of raiding. Mythic is still. Mythic gear is still. So there are more people "raiding". Why is that a bad thing?

It takes resources away from other content

This partially true but debatable. How much resources does it take to make LFR? And how much content could made with the same resource required for LFR?

People who would perhaps try to do normal mode just do LFR instead. Thus is weakens the playerbase

This what people like to think it would happen. Maybe it would for some players but not for all the people who runs LFR. Player forms PUGS sets their own requirements for invite. As the tier gets older, the requirements rises. This is understandable and I do not blame the raid leader for setting the minimum standard. The raid leader has the entire group to worry about. They want a fast efficient run. So why invite a complete new player when more experienced players are available?

So for some, removing LFR is removing content from them just to appease another section of the players.If

It's the "path of least resistance" meaning it's so easy and the gear is "good enough" for most players that it draws them to this content. Why do heroics when you can do LFR? Why do normal when you can do LFR? Why do heroic when you can do normal? See what I mean?

Why does it matter to you and me? If other players are happy with what they can acquire from LFR, why does it concern anyone else but them?

It's too easy. I see no purpose in easy content. I'll go play cookie clicker if I want a no-skill, easy-mode content that feeds me rewards for doing nothing.

The difficulty is a different issue. I agree that the present difficulty is ratehr undertuned. But this is different from LFR, as a tool.

It encourages solo play. Again, I see no purpose in playing an MMO when your goal is to play by yourself. Sure WoW is a decent solo game, but we shouldn't be encouraging it.

My personal experience is that I made no friends in a raid or dungeon. I made my friends in the guild who later invited me to raiding. I do not see why raiding has to be with friends or need to be actively social with everyone in the group. That person may be very socially active in their guild. Their guild just happens to be not raiding fiocus. I have seen guilds that are primary family and friends. They do not accept random strangers into their guild. It also means their guild cannot raid on a regular basis.

Obviously these are all opinions, but that's why I think LFR is a problem. The old "dont play it if you don't like it" is a laughably simple response to an obviously bigger problem. We can draw a correlation to the inclusion of the Dungeon Finder (a pre-cursor to LFR) to the sharp decline in subscribers which occurred at the end of Wrath. Is that the sole reason? Of course not. Was it a contributing factor? I assume it was, since it was part of the game. How big a factor? Impossible to know.

I disagree. People sees it as a problem because they see other playing the game differently to how they percieved the game is to be played. Be social? I have played since TBC. I ran dungeons. I did not raid back then. But the trade chat were just full of nonsense just as it is today. I am not interested in that. In dungeons, the social activity is dependant on the people in it, rather than how the group is formed. Before LFD, I have not met the same player twice in any dungeons I did. And it was not many due to time required spamming in city LFG.

As others have said, can we remove it now that it's in the game? I don't know. I've long said that Blizzard fucked up by moving towards casual content modes. You can't make things more challenging because you look like you're doing it to waste people's time. Artificial time gates or whatever you want to call them. You can ONLY make things easier. And thus, every expansion more and more convenience factors have been introduced. My vote is blizzard repeals them a few at a time and slowly make the game more challenging. Will people leave? Sure. Will it bring new players in? I have no idea, maybe? But honestly I don't care about those things. I just want Blizz to remove super casual content like LFR.

If Blizzard do remove LFR, then they need to replace it with alternate contents for this section of the player base. This additional content will cost money, time and people. I pretty confident that this new alternative content would be much more expensive to develop than LFR. So where is Blizzard going to find the resouces for this new content? They will need to look at what they are making and the return. Raiding cost a significant amount and looking at the patch releases, they form the core of major patches, yet their participation rate is very low. At most 1% of players raid mythic? How is mythic justifuing its existence?

I would not be surprised if raiding, in any form, takes a significant cut if Blizzard decides to cut LFR and make alternative content for the LFR only players.

[Deleted]

I hate Mythic. It killed my guild which killed multiple friendships I had on the game for quite some time.

Let me guess, Gorefiend? Fuck that fight on progress aaall the way to the bank. xD

- - - Updated - - -

To them, it is raiding. Maybe it is not raiding to you. But why do you care?I play football in the park. I play football in a small gym. I have never played football as the pro do in a full size pitch. Am I playing football?

Nothing has been taken from higher difficulty of raiding. Mythic is still. Mythic gear is still. So there are more people "raiding". Why is that a bad thing?

Well, here comes a big issue from LFR currently being AFK-able. Personally I liked the pre-nerf LFR Archimonde because after a couple of weeks people in pugs where a bit more decent due to HAVING to have learned what to do. Ontop of that, people coming out of LFR being all like "I know how to raid ye scrubs" and signing up for a guild, and needing to have every mechanic re-explained to them in Normal+ because none of them mattered on LFR does become an issue and a timesink for recruiting, no matter if it is a guild running just high-end Normal, some Heroic, or even Mythic and looking for new recruits to train before expansion hits.

[Paula Deen]

Let me guess, Gorefiend? Fuck that fight on progress aaall the way to the bank. xD

No. BRF in General. We couldn't recruit fast enough to keep up with other guilds.

[Deleted]

"Its literally strawmanning because you have no fucking argument."

Sorry if i misunderstood this sentence. I agree that LFR cuold be better (i mean everything can be better! ), and also the Mythic size problem is real for many people (my guild have serious problem getting active mythic raiding players right now).

[Jtbrig7390]

The day raiding is endgame but there is no queable raid is the day I leave WoW.

Done giving control of content I want to play to other players. I really give no fucks about what the FatBoss video has to say.

Ether
A) Remove LFR and make NM queable
or
B) STFU about lfr already.

LFR servers a major purpose and its to provide raiding content for casuals and hardcore players alike. Want to keep raiding as WoW's main endgame....Stop bitching about LFR.

If LFR didn't have a purpose it would have been removed come Legion not returned to the MOP model. Only time ill be using LFG come Legion is for world bosses or server hopping. I will not be stepping foot into NM+ raiding even more so using LFG to do it. That cress-poll can stay where its at and I won't use it.

[Freds1234]

You're not looking hard enough.

I agree that it's not a stepping stone to higher levels of raiding. THAT is the problem. People stop at LFR. What if we removed LFR? Would people stop at Normal? Maybe. But I'm a proponent of removing ALL of the raid difficulties except one, MAYBE two (but I'd rather an Ulduar style where you engage the "hard" mode), so maybe that's just me. I think having more than one difficulty just highlights the hamster wheel. It feels shitty to kill a boss on normal, then start again on heroic. The idea that people will work through LFR, then normal, then heroic, then mythic is so wrong. No one does this. They pick a lane, then they run out of content because they pick the lane that's easiest for them. Blizz needs to focus on one raid difficulty and stop trying to balance 4.

You're assuming everyone feels the same way. I really enjoyed progressing from Normal to Heroic to Mythic in Highmaul. I think it's one of the more meaningful sensations of progression available in the game, and I absolutely disagree with your sentiment that it "feels shitty to start all over again".
People do not "pick a lane" and stay in it; guilds begin in Normal because Heroic is out of reach in 5man heroic gear, then move up the ladder until they either reach their skill-cap or decide Normal/Heroic is comfortable for them.

You still have not pointed out any drawbacks with LFR apart from your own 'feelings', which, quite frankly, are entirely irrelevant.

[Paula Deen]

"Its literally strawmanning because you have no fucking argument."

You highlighting a word when you KNOW what I meant doesn't make your shit argument better.

[Mercane]

It's not going anywhere. People need to realize this, and stop wasting their time on a fruitless endeavor asking for it to be removed.

The 'fruitless endeavor' in this case being monetized youtube views.