Protection legion Discussion

[Breccia]

This is true. But what matters is survivability, which --

Yeah no, we've had this conversation before.

You are not the first to try to defend RFDT with "but we are still harder to kill with more hit points". So is everyone else. And they don't lose resources (or at least, not as much) by gearing up. It's a stupid system, and it won't get any less stupid by arguments such as "it's not as bad as it sounds" when it shouldn't sound bad in the first place.

P.S. If you think deciding when to let the boss hit you -- and thereby failing your main job as a tank by willingly taking damage -- so that you can survive a burst later is good game design, then you and I see Legion Prot Warrior spec development in very different ways. Yes, you're describing a way to work within that system, now that we have no choice, but it's not a defense for the system itself. If you're really concerned about not dying, why do you seem so okay with a system in which the best course of action is to intentionally take damage, and intentionally tax your healers, just before a large burst of unavoidable damage? Why does this sound like a good idea?

"Listen up, healer! The dragon is about to spread its mighty jaws and unleash a gout of fire upon me, one that will surely injure or kill two, nay, three men. And I have just the plan on how to survive it!"
"Good, tell me and I shall assist you!"
"I am going to...lower my shield, and let him claw me across the face several times."
"...wot."
"And possibly bite me as well."
"That sounds suicidally counterproductive."
"Ah, but Class Fantasy!"
"No, no it's not. There has never been any warrior, in any mythos, in the history of ever, who intentionally let themself get nearly killed, for no other reason than to avoid being all the way killed."
"What about Homer Simpson?"
"Thrashed by the Mike Tyson look-alike in under a round."
"Beowulf?"
"Dragon killed him."
"Yang from RWBY?"
"I'm not convinced those powers count as 'warrior'."
"Vegeta got Krillin to almost kill him to fight Frieza. Then got healed to full! It fits perfectly!"
"And then Frieza completely killed him anyhow. Made him cry first, too. Shattered his pride completely. It...was humiliating. I'm not convinced that's a model you want to follow -- being beaten until you cry like a bitch, then murdered."
"Ahah! What about the late, great, Muhammad Ali? The Rope-A-Dope? That worked incredibly well. And he's not even fictional!"
"No. First of all, the Rope-A-Dope was all about lowering the damage, not taking it on purpose like you want to. Secondly, Ali's ability to take a hit without taking damage was damn near legendary. We never saw The Champ staggering, blood oozing from his lips, murmuring 'Ahah, I got you right where I want you now.' Finally, Ali never went against a boxer who said 'I'm going to take a few more swings at you, then I'm bringing out a grenade launcher and ending this'. Most real-life boxers hit less and less as the fight proceeds, not harder."
"Hmm."
"I mean, think this through. Are you--"
"ARE YOU TWO DONE TALKING YET? YOU'RE NOT THE ONLY 5MAN I'M SUPPOSED TO DIE TO TODAY."
"Almost, hold on! Are you really looking forward to taking the damage? To going against your instincts and training, basically your primary job, and letting the dragon hit you on purpose?"
"Well, no. But I'm stuck with this system. This is the best way of handling it."
"Maybe, but the system itself isn't something to be proud of. Rage From Damage Taken is the dumbest thing since Time-Traveling Garrosh."

[Shenkz]

Yeah no, we've had this conversation before.

You are not the first to try to defend RFDT with "but we are still harder to kill with more hit points". So is everyone else. And they don't lose resources (or at least, not as much) by gearing up. It's a stupid system, and it won't get any less stupid by arguments such as "it's not as bad as it sounds" when it shouldn't sound bad in the first place.

P.S. If you think deciding when to let the boss hit you -- and thereby failing your main job as a tank by willingly taking damage -- so that you can survive a burst later is good game design, then you and I see Legion Prot Warrior spec development in very different ways. Yes, you're describing a way to work within that system, now that we have no choice, but it's not a defense for the system itself. If you're really concerned about not dying, why do you seem so okay with a system in which the best course of action is to intentionally take damage, and intentionally tax your healers, just before a large burst of unavoidable damage? Why does this sound like a good idea?

"Listen up, healer! The dragon is about to spread its mighty jaws and unleash a gout of fire upon me, one that will surely injure or kill two, nay, three men. And I have just the plan on how to survive it!"
"Good, tell me and I shall assist you!"
"I am going to...lower my shield, and let him claw me across the face several times."
"...wot."
"And possibly bite me as well."
"That sounds suicidally counterproductive."
"Ah, but Class Fantasy!"
"No, no it's not. There has never been any warrior, in any mythos, in the history of ever, who intentionally let themself get nearly killed, for no other reason than to avoid being all the way killed."
"What about Homer Simpson?"
"Thrashed by the Mike Tyson look-alike in under a round."
"Beowulf?"
"Dragon killed him."
"Yang from RWBY?"
"I'm not convinced those powers count as 'warrior'."
"Vegeta got Krillin to almost kill him to fight Frieza. Then got healed to full! It fits perfectly!"
"And then Frieza completely killed him anyhow. Made him cry first, too. Shattered his pride completely. It...was humiliating. I'm not convinced that's a model you want to follow -- being beaten until you cry like a bitch, then murdered."
"Ahah! What about the late, great, Muhammad Ali? The Rope-A-Dope? That worked incredibly well. And he's not even fictional!"
"No. First of all, the Rope-A-Dope was all about lowering the damage, not taking it on purpose like you want to. Secondly, Ali's ability to take a hit without taking damage was damn near legendary. We never saw The Champ staggering, blood oozing from his lips, murmuring 'Ahah, I got you right where I want you now.' Finally, Ali never went against a boxer who said 'I'm going to take a few more swings at you, then I'm bringing out a grenade launcher and ending this'. Most real-life boxers hit less and less as the fight proceeds, not harder."
"Hmm."
"I mean, think this through. Are you--"
"ARE YOU TWO DONE TALKING YET? YOU'RE NOT THE ONLY 5MAN I'M SUPPOSED TO DIE TO TODAY."
"Almost, hold on! Are you really looking forward to taking the damage? To going against your instincts and training, basically your primary job, and letting the dragon hit you on purpose?"
"Well, no. But I'm stuck with this system. This is the best way of handling it."
"Maybe, but the system itself isn't something to be proud of. Rage From Damage Taken is the dumbest thing since Time-Traveling Garrosh."

I saw 5-man and immediately stopped reading.

[Hacan]

I've gone to toward the right and left on two separate Warriors (to see how it felt). I feel like Dragon Scales is stronger; it's not confirmed, but in recent builds, we think it's been changed from its old RPPM to a %-based chance like Celestalon said it likely would be. It fits in well with how Never Surrender changes the cap (I've stacked IP to a huge amount while off-tanking), and in general, it just feels better.

Rage generation is perfectly fine and, to be honest, has never felt like much of an issue, even before they changed it from the old formula to the new one.

Here's something that has been posted in the discord, courtesy of @Marok:

That's generally agreed to be the best route. Scales of Earth was changed to proc on every critical block, just a tooltip error, so it's quite good as a second choice.

Awesome! Thank you very much for the help!

- - - Updated - - -

Interestingly enough, no you haven't asked that before or been in the thread at any point O_o. To answer your questions though:

That's the pretty cookie-cutter way to go. pure single target you can swap SW with SB, you can take impending victory for stuff outside of raid too probably. As for artifact you'll probably want to hang far right side, get that gold trait then cut into the middle and across to the left after you get the middle gold trait.

On a slightly tangential note, I think indomitable will probably be silly as fuck to use once you overgear content, and can be stronger than NS in that case. Wish it had more use outside of that, but NS is just so damn strong.

I apologize, I really thought I had posted here for that same information when Alpha first came out.
Thank you very much for the great post!

[Deleted]

It's in a layman's terms. Not everyone needs or wants to know all of that - the TL;DR is that gearing up no longer has the downsides it did before.

Are you kidding? Of course ilvl still decreases your total RFDT. Read the patch note again if it's not clear.
That bit of the design, as said a hundred times already, is just silly and needs to go.

[Yapps]

#showtooltip
/use !ravager

The exclamation mark is important.

[Beardyface]

#showtooltip
/use !ravager

The exclamation mark is important.

This works! Very nice. Thanks!

[Coffeh]

Well, 'Inspiring Presence' healing the warrior lasted about one build. They already took it away.

[Breccia]

Well, 'Inspiring Presence' healing the warrior lasted about one build. They already took it away.

I think at this point I'll use Impending Victory out of sheer spite.

[Deleted]

nah just claim main spec prio on leech tertiary stat and hope it evens out to 3% that way. gonna need lot of leech though

[Deleted]

Ok guys i have few more questions:
* IP 6 stacks (why 6 stacks max ?)
* Battle Cry utility (DPS, defensive, useless ?)
* Horde Orc Racial > Tauren Racial for PA benefit or unsignifiant ?
* 1.75% haste for a 12.8s SB, so 8% for 12s SB ?
* Haste still > to Mastery even if we reach under 12s SB ? (For anger management case choice)
* Is there anyone got a weight stat simulation for the last build war prot legion?

[Bytch]

So, what's the Artifact build line up looking like?> I thought I saw a couple post a couple of the builds. But cant seem to find them in this thread. Should I go left side first or right?>....lol

[Deleted]

Ok guys i have few more questions:
* IP 6 stacks (why 6 stacks max ?) there has to be a cap somewhere, doubt you will reach this one very often as opposed to the previous shitty one
* Battle Cry utility (DPS, defensive, useless ?) dps mostly, doesnt give you parry, can be used to force ultimatum procs, maybe nice with netlharions fury if they buff it again
* Horde Orc Racial > Tauren Racial for PA benefit or unsignifiant ? if you have to ask its insignificant, play what you like the looks off (wonder if tauren reduces rage tho now that i think of it
* 1.75% haste for a 12.8s SB, so 8% for 12s SB ? i'm not to fussed about this until legoin actually launches, numbers still change
* Haste still > to Mastery even if we reach under 12s SB ? (For anger management case choice)
* Is there anyone got a weight stat simulation for the last build war prot legion?

10shieldslams

[Hostile]

So, what's the Artifact build line up looking like?> I thought I saw a couple post a couple of the builds. But cant seem to find them in this thread. Should I go left side first or right?>....lol

right > mid > left

[Ashenia]

right > mid > left

It was like that even before last changes with Dragon Scales giving so much rage on proc. The one that was posted above is the best (currently) way of going for.

[Agromat]

1.75% haste for a 12.8s SB, so 8% for 12s SB?

Yes, you've got it right.

For those who haven't done much haste math, it's kind of confusing, because you have to keep straight whether you're talking about an ability's cooldown or it's frequency, which is the inverse of its cooldown. Having X% haste multiplies an ability's frequency by 1 + X%. So, for instance, to calculate SB's cooldown with 1.75% hastenew cooldown of of haste to get SB's cooldown down from 13 seconds to 12.8 seconds, you would:

• Find SB's base frequency. SB Frequency = 1 / 13
• Multiply SB frequency by 1 + haste amount to find new frequency. New Frequency = (1 + 0.0175) * (1 / 13) = (1.0175) / 13
• Invert the new frequency to find the new cooldown. New cooldown = 1 / ((1.0175) / 13) = 13 / (1.0175) = 12.77

Doing the math gives 12.8, which is your result.

To find the amount of haste required to get a CD of twelve, you just plug in 12 as your new cooldown and solve for the amount of haste:

12 = 13 / (1 + X)
12 * (1 + X) = 13
1 + X = 13 / 12
X = 13 / 12 - 1 = 8.3% haste

Is there anyone got a weight stat simulation for the last build war prot legion?

It's being worked on but no one has released one.

[Hacan]

So, what's the Artifact build line up looking like?> I thought I saw a couple post a couple of the builds. But cant seem to find them in this thread. Should I go left side first or right?>....lol

Check out post #2229. I asked this same question just the other day. There is a nice drawing of the recommended path.

[Aiqe]

Yes, you've got it right.

For those who haven't done much haste math, it's kind of confusing, because you have to keep straight whether you're talking about an ability's cooldown or it's frequency, which is the inverse of its cooldown. Having X% haste multiplies an ability's frequency by 1 + X%. So, for instance, to calculate SB's cooldown with 1.75% hastenew cooldown of of haste to get SB's cooldown down from 13 seconds to 12.8 seconds, you would:

• Find SB's base frequency. SB Frequency = 1 / 13
• Multiply SB frequency by 1 + haste amount to find new frequency. New Frequency = (1 + 0.0175) * (1 / 13) = (1.0175) / 13
• Invert the new frequency to find the new cooldown. New cooldown = 1 / ((1.0175) / 13) = 13 / (1.0175) = 12.77

Doing the math gives 12.8, which is your result.

To find the amount of haste required to get a CD of twelve, you just plug in 12 as your new cooldown and solve for the amount of haste:

12 = 13 / (1 + X)
12 * (1 + X) = 13
1 + X = 13 / 12
X = 13 / 12 - 1 = 8.3% haste

Or if you just care for the cooldown you can always just
Get your haste %, which is x (as in x% haste) and then go with :

CD in sec * (1 - (x/100))

E.g 13 * (1 - (1.75/100)) =12.8

For 12 seconds it then would be alomst the same as you said with:

12 * (1 - (x/100)) = 13
12 - (12x/100) = 13
-12x/100 = -13
12x = 1300
x= 108.3

Substract 100 from that and you got your percantage.

This way around is easier, atleast for my way of thinking.

[Agromat]

Or if you just care for the cooldown you can always just
Get your haste %, which is x (as in x% haste) and then go with :

CD in sec * (1 - (x/100))

E.g 13 * (1 - (1.75/100)) =12.8

...

This way around is easier, at least for my way of thinking.

No, this isn't correct math. The results seem close enough because the haste values we're using as examples are very small, but at larger haste values you'll see how your calculations return results that are farther from the correct values.

For instance, with 25% haste:

• Correct calculation: New cooldown = 13 / 1.25 = 10.4 seconds.
• Your calculation: New cooldown = 13 * (1 - 0.25) = 9.75 seconds.

100% haste is an even more illustrative example. It's a good test, because it should double your speed and halve your cooldowns:

• Correct calculation: New cooldown = 13 / 2 = 6.5 seconds.
• Your calculation: New cooldown = 13 * (1 - 1) = 0 seconds (!!).

It's important to use the right math, even if it's a little more work.

[Talrial]

Hey everyone, I am a guy on YouTube making videos on all the tanks in Legion. Now I wont claim to be the most intelligent or a warrior expert or anything but tonight I did some Normal mode Xavius testing on the beta realms. For a little background on me I am a mythic tank maining a Brewmaster since MoP and in no way shape or form a warrior expert. I want to say that again, I am not a Warrior main or even for that matter knowing what the best talents or stats are just yet. That being said I went into the raid testing with a group of randoms (to me, they knew each other) and did Xavius. Not only is this a little bit of shameless self promotion but I thought that perhaps some of you guys would have an interest in at least seeing how a Warrior with no real artifact power does on normal mode Xavius. If you guys like this Ill post more stuff I do in here but if not I wont bother you guys. I hope you enjoy or find it even a little bit helpful in some way to the discussion.

https://youtu.be/XECjuM9B12Y

[Aiqe]

No, this isn't correct math. The results seem close enough because the haste values we're using as examples are very small, but at larger haste values you'll see how your calculations return results that are farther from the correct values.

For instance, with 25% haste:

• Correct calculation: New cooldown = 13 / 1.25 = 10.4 seconds.
• Your calculation: New cooldown = 13 * (1 - 0.25) = 9.75 seconds.

100% haste is an even more illustrative example. It's a good test, because it should double your speed and halve your cooldowns:

• Correct calculation: New cooldown = 13 / 2 = 6.5 seconds.
• Your calculation: New cooldown = 13 * (1 - 1) = 0 seconds (!!).

It's important to use the right math, even if it's a little more work.

Ah, yeah i guess you're right. I probably shouldnt post tired or atleast check my s*** for bigger numbers. Seems stupidly obvious to me now how wrong that formula is. Thanks for pointing that out.

One could argue you can use it for "smaller" percentages, but then where's the "breakpoint" from which on out the two start to differ too much...