New Motion Comic - Nightborne

[Combatbutler]

No, the current night elves are not closest to their original culture, druidism only took off seriously with Malfurion, a student talent enough for Cenarius to really teach. Having given up their arcane lifestyle they were all ears and devoted their intelligence to nature and developed. It is the nightborne that closest to their original culture.

Again the arcane driven society is not the core of night elven society, see below.

WE know that by the time we get close to the sundering all night elves have departed from the nature loving ways they all loved! They were very much arcane oreintated that loved nature and peaceful ways.. remember arcane enhances nature around it, the arcane font of power nourished life. When Malfurion finds Cenarius, the Cenarius has faded into legend amongst the night elves, alot believe he is myth or fabled, and Cenarius gives the explanation of why he left them, the night elves were getting too obsessed with the arcane i.e. not caring for nature and the balance like they once did, not just the highborne, all of them. Now this is coming from canon sources like the WotA, not the rpg non-canon books which paint a different picture of the whole thing.

To quote Chronicle.

Azshara's views on Hyjal were well known to Cenarius. With growing unease, he had watched the night elf empire expand. Year by Year, he became increasingly frustrated with the hubris and thoughtless actions of the sorcerous Highborne. The majority of night elf society continued honoring the old ways of revering the wilds. The fact that these folks still lived in harmony with the land warmed Cenarius's heart, but he knew that they had no influence over Azshara and her arrogant followers.

The way I see it, is that in Suramar, the highborne caste have evolved into nightborne, in Eldre'thalas they haven't. They are different peoples now, but still of that night elf pre-sundering vein, which the high/blood elves are not at all. In Suramar we say highborne caste, but it was highborne led city of highborne and non-highborne alike. The vigil-group was a non-highborne led group, with the Zin'Azshari highborne departing and they become a new group that is not night elven in anyway - not pre-sundering nor vigil. Same cannot be said for the Suramar group, it is still very much night elven pre-sundering.

They might reflect a a certain time of the night elves, but that culture never was their core, it was their ties to nature, even before they became elves, it is the one thing that never changed.

That's the core identity of the night elves - it is arcane and nature loving - both parts. You can't separate the two and say oh, the nautre part is night elf and the arcane part is not night elf but highborne. They are both night elf and they weren't divided into the nature ones and the arcane ones, they were all arcane ones that loved nature. After the sundering one group pursues nature without the arcane, the others do not. One group stops being night elf altogether, the others still continue.

The night elves still use the arcane after the sundering, it is why moonwells exist and the rituals surrounding them. Night elf society after the sundering simply got back to its roots.

[Mace]

Again the arcane driven society is not the core of night elven society, see below.

To quote Chronicle.

Azshara's views on Hyjal were well known to Cenarius. With growing unease, he had watched the night elf empire expand. Year by Year, he became increasingly frustrated with the hubris and thoughtless actions of the sorcerous Highborne. The majority of night elf society continued honoring the old ways of revering the wilds. The fact that these folks still lived in harmony with the land warmed Cenarius's heart, but he knew that they had no influence over Azshara and her arrogant followers.

They might reflect a a certain time of the night elves, but that culture never was their core, it was their ties to nature, even before they became elves, it is the one thing that never changed.

The night elves still use the arcane after the sundering, it is why moonwells exist and the rituals surrounding them. Night elf society after the sundering simply got back to its roots.

The descriptions are all there, you are quoting Chronicles, and as you can see from the description it is not talking about the night elves not having an arcane core to their culture, they are mentioning that nature and revere for it also played an importnat part - this matches up the account in WotA, the toher narratives and some in-game books. It's not that night elves weren't arcane at core or arcane oreintated, many sources show that, you just know that they had a deep respect for nature too alongside that.

The night elves worked a harmony with nature and the arcane... their arcane mindedness was not at odds with nature, for a long time, it is never supposed to be. The path Azshara took eventually discarded both the divine and nature and took the arcane recklessly, and this happened towards the end. This is the part that was 10k years ago in that last millenium I estimate in the last 500 years is when she got all warped.

Only after the sundering did the night elves focus on nature without the arcane - they'd never done that before and only one group did that. The only reason they did that is not because the arcane is somehow alien to them or anything like that, is because they feared using it for spells would bring back the legion, and although the view wasn't well informed it was a very legitimate one to have given what they had experienced. I must warn you that the rpg lore books are the ones that present them almost like two different races of elves, but that's clearly wrong because the WotA novel contradicts most of that anyway.

Night elves lived in magic utopia - their arcane expertise was in balance with nature and the divine. Thanks to Queen Azshara this went out of balance. After that happened, the main night elf groupcuts off arcane usage for spells - I mention arcane usage for spells always becasue as you point out they used the arcane. The nightborne group are in a bubble cut off from nature, the arcane they continue developing. Now think about it, the night elves of Suramar at the time of the barrier erection are in a society where nature is not playing a large role, the arcane is being recklessly used and they rebel against this.

They have no Malfurion or Cenarius to lead them in restoring the nature affinity, so they continue in the manner they left off, minus the recklessness. Meanwhile the vigil group leave the working of arcane spells behind and are led by a druid and a priest. The druid restores their nature affinity, but their arcane affinity isn't gone at all, their society is just no longer arcane based because they've stopped using the arcane spells to enhance their lives.

And so both night elven societies, the vigil socieites and the arcane socieites (nightborne/highborne) are separately fractions of their former selves. Notice that it is the high elves that achieve the old Night elven utopia but not in a night elven way. They have nature and the arcane and the divine (Light worship instead of Elune) all working in harmony - Darth'remar builds the elven utopia. It rises to some increidble heights, it is still not at the level the old night elven empire was, it is much smaller after all, but this is what the high elves went and achieved. After the scourge invasion though, and the blood elves are formed, you notice the blood elves change view from harmony to domination, The light, nature - both must be dominated, they even capture a Naaru - they eventually get redeemed from this and now are healing, their nature affinity side is still not restored, but you know they'll get there.

With the nightborne revealed, should they get together with the night elves like they are doing, together they have the ability to create a truly harmonized night elf based society like the old days - with arcane, divine and nature mastery all working in tandem. In the druids, the priesthood and the mages - from all the different groups they have what it takes.

Personally this is the healing the night elves have wanted or waited for for a long time, their society whole and harmonized again. With all the parts of magic they were good at working together. In the demon huntners do you notice they also get Fel magic and working for good. The only thing they don't have is elemental magic mastery Shaman style. But I suspect in the Cenarians i.e. dryads/keeprs you get that - because they seem very attuned to nature and the land. I've noticed that they are very spell savvy, and also quite curious, they have demonstrated their druidic command, bbut also you see them as priests and mages too. Ones with a very nature harmony focus.

[Mehrunes]

With the nightborne added to the rest of the night elves they kinda cancel out the blood elves, might be even strong enough to stand on their own two feet without requiring the alliance - doubtful, but together you have to admit though, they can really be a force to be reckoned with comparable to the humans and orcs even.

Night Elves treat even non-Highborne that became Mages like shit, not to mention the Highborne themselves. Why would Nightborne pick them over Blood Elves if they had to pick anything, when Blood Elves are a nation of magic just like they are? And whose Sunwell could potentially offer sustenance to them due to being partially Arcane (if Legion goes back on their promise as the tide turns against them and use everything the Nightwell offers they'd be in a dire need of replacement)? Especially since link with the Sunwell has much wider radius while link to Nightwell is cut off much more easily. The Holy part of Sunwell could maybe help them heal their dependency in the long term too.

nightwell changed their bodies into a new form of night elf, not a new species.

Let me ask you a question - a they still elves? are they still nocturnal? are they still moon/star focused? are they still carrying on in a night elven society?

You're conflating culture with race.

The answer to all those questions is YES. No one is denying that they are a new race, nor that their bodies changed, it's freaking obvious, it's also obvious they are a new race of night elf. You're an elf and you're an elf of the night? then you're a night elf. Doesn't mean you have to be like the Darnassus group, they are no longer the only kinds of night elves in warcraft.

Except you denied them being a new race of Elves and called them merely a prominent group.

Unless you think night elves are only confined to looking one way, some of them can't change to something slightly different and still remain night elves. In fact some would argue that the Shal'dorei Kal'dorei are more true to night elf customs than the Hyjal Kal'dorei. Truth is they are the one people that have split int two, one kept the priesthood and nature side, the other kept the arcane side.

And one of them was transformed by the Nightwell.

The nightborne are not the Hyjal night elves, who in time formed a new type of society. They are more the original night elven civilization and their bodies have evolved a bit. Think of it like if we had Armageddon and all our world cities were toppled, and few of us survived to start afresh. But unknown to us, New York city survived locked in a shield, those citizens continued on advancing and developing, whiles the rest of us, took a vow off technology because it brought the aliens and we felt using the high power tech would draw them back, so we adapted our customs, adjusted to life without our previous heights.

10k years later, when the aliens come back again, new york we find survived, many of us still remember it because we were from there, the new yorkesrs have evolved a bit, but they still human, just slightly different - do we call them a new speices? they don't refer to themselves as Americans though they consider themselves that, but they're more New Yorkers.

It's something like that.

Your scenario lacks a font of magical energy that transformed the bodies of the New York population so your analogy is off.

I think the confusion might be is that the word night elf is used for both the race and the political faction. The night elf race - well that will include, night elves (faction), highborne night elves, nightborne night elves, Cenarian night elves evertyhing htat's them from both pre-sundering and post sundering - if they're elven, connected to the night elven civilization whether pre-sundering (highborne and nightborne) or post sundering (hyjal night elves and Cenarians), they are nocturnal - you know, moon/star focus - Elune still the goddess (don't necessarily have to worship her) - Moon symbols/ star/moon focuses - then they're night elves.

Except for the cases when Blizzard outright says they no longer are. Did they say Highborne of Eldre'Thalas are a new race? Nope. Did they say that Nightborne are? They sure did.

One is night elf as in race, one is night elf as in faction. Context will usually tell you which is being referred too. If you are using faction, you call alliance group night elves, eldre'thalas group highborne, and suramar group nightborne - you can say the night elves don't like the highborne. but wait a minute, aren't the highborne night elves too? yes they are, we are using it in a faction context now. Shal'dorei and Quel'dorei are still also Kal'dorei - in fact some would say more Kal'dorei then the alliance group because of their heavy moon/star arcane focus, but that's not really true, they have the arcane aspect of the kal'dorei while the main group have the spiritual aspect of the kal'dorei.

Just because Highborne of Eldre'Thalas are still Kal'dorei doesn't mean Nighborne are. You offered absolutely no substantiation to that claim other than "there's factions and then there's races".

So yes, they are a new race, but yyou shouldn't be thinking of them as something completely new, they are not naga or satyr neither of which live nigh t elven existences or in night elven civilizations, and they are totally transformed from night elves. They are not as changed from night elves as blood elves are either, as you can see, the high elves redefined themselves and made themselves a very new kind of elf. Very different, not a night elven civilization pre-sundering nor post sundering, they did something new, they stopped being nocturnal, abandoned Elune worship, went only Light intensive, swapped moon and stars for Sun. This is not true at all for the nightborne.

Blood Elves didn't become a new race because they changed their belief system, they became a new race because they physically changed. That's what race in WoW refers to.

Make no mistake about it, nightborne are not night elves, nightborne are very much night elves. Both those statements are true.. do you get it now? One was in terms of faction the other in terms of race.

The one in terms of race is wrong, you're arguing against Word of God and the only place that would be taken with any seriousness would be fanfiction.net.

Chronicles is not telling you that hey're not night elves, they're describing a process that those night elves underwent.

Except that's literally what the Chronicles said. It said that they became a new race. For them to still be Night Elves ("race, not faction, lel") that would mean they were not Night Elves prior to the transformation and transformed into Night Elves. We know that to be false. The only alternative is that they transformed out of Night Elves, into a new race of Nightborne.

1. Are they still Elves?
2. are they still nocturnal (night) elves? - check they are night elves
3. are they in a night elf civilizationi? - check too

- in fact htey are the only ones in a functioning pre-sundering night elf civilization.

Again, culture =/= race.

They are not the Hyjal night elves (faction)m but they are still night elves (race) .. i mean this should not be needed to be spelt out.

Indeed it shouldn't. Because Chronicles made it abundantly clear they are a new race.

Everything about you shows you they are still night elves (race), just not those night elves (points at north western kalimdor) i.e different from the night elves that werre outside the city. That dind't have a nightwell to change them. As you can see they are not as changed as high elves or Naga or Satyr - they still remain night elves. You just have 2 types of night elves now.

Since when is there some required degree of differences required to count races different from one another?

Just like you have 3 types of humans. Human (stormwind), Gilneans, Azotha and Forsaken (Lorderaon). Even if they make them playable, they don't stop being night elves, they continue to be night elves but different to the night elf faction - so we call them nightborne.

And now you're conflating races with nations.

I give up, I don't think it can be said anymore clearly. Believe what you want. It actually doesn't make any difference. Nomenclature is what it is. I shouldn't need to qualify the night elfness of the nightborne it shouldn't need to be said because it's quite evident in everything about the nightborne. It should be clear that they are NOT night elves (faction race) and quite clear they are night elves (race), Better yet, ask yourself, what makes them not night elf?

How gracious of you to allow people to believe the actual lore /s And what makes them not Night Elves? The part where they transformed because of the Nightwell.

Blizzard as told you quite plainly they've given a new elven group. Did they need to say it was a night elven group when they'd just described the night elf city they lived in, the night elf customs and way of life they follow, and shown you their very night elven dark skinned elven bodies, or was the night in the nightborne not enough?

Was the "new race" in Chronicles not new and race-y enough for you? There's also Orc in Orcas, that doesn't make Orcas a type race of Orcs.

Remember the developers did not have to do it this way at all, they could have done something entirely different. Clearly they wanted something night elven, but distinct from the current well known night elves, so they chose the pre-sundering versions, gave them a new model and told the story of their lives up to current. And one thing is clear, though they have evolved, they haven't stopped being night elves. Just not those night elves.

You still offer absolutely no proof of that other than baseless claim of "faction, not the race" and expecting us you believe you because reasons. And funnily enough, Blizzard telling their story included them becoming a new race.

by that logic they are no longer elves either.

Did Blood Elves stop being Elves when they were transformed from Night Elves? Nope. So by that logic everything is fine. They stop being Elves only by your sorry excuse of logic conjured up only to deflect the Word of God because you have nothing else to stand on.

You don't have to state that they are a new race of elves or a new race of night elves when you make it quite abundantly clear. As I've pointed out before you can say they are a new race, a new race of elves a new race of night elves, each is true. You don't have to be super specific everytime when you quite strongly show what you mean. So what kind of new race are the nightborne? They are a new race of elves? What kind of elf? Well, a new race of night elf. So we now have 2 types of night elves? Yes.

How does two races of Night Elves even make sense? Elves are a category of races. Night Elves are not. Night Elves are an example of a race. There can't be two races of Night Elves just like there can't be two races of Pale Orcs.

Why that should surprise you seeing we have multiple versions of every race. Blood elves, undead elves. Humans, Human Worgen, Undead Humans. Dark Iron dwarves, wildhammer dwarves, frost dwarves. Gnomes, Leper gnomes, mecha gnomes - each of these groups are altered from each other but they are still part of their group.

So now you're mixing not just nations with races, but also afflictions, undeath and in some cases ignoring the fact that some of these races are indeed different.

Night elves (Hyjal ones), Nightborne, Highborne, Blood elves, High Elves, Darkfallen, Wretched - are all types of Elves, but only Night elves, Nightborne and Highborne are night elves.

And even more conflating.

so why does gul'dan have nerzuls staff?

He had no active subscription between the movie's release and Legion's release and couldn't get that mog?

[ravenmoon]

But that isn't the original night elven culture though, which is described in chronicle as well, the current night elves are the closest to their original culture, simple down to earth lifestyle and close to nature. A portion of their society was not satisfied with that lifestyle and changed everything and the night elf empire was the result, but the majority of the population never changed that outlook.

It was night elves that went arcane, not a different race or species. it doesn't matter whether the culture was arcane orientated from the start, or grew that way, it was night elves not a different species that mastered the arcane, this was night elven culture - it always has been. You can't say the nightborne aren't night elves because the night elves that excelled at the arcane were not night elves. And it's not true either, they all delved into the arcane, some to greater degree than others, and at the end the palace highborne totally over did, taking reckless risks.

it's like trying to say the night elven culture was not arcane, it was. Mace is right, arcane culture in balance, then arcane culture out of balance towards the end.

Are you not glad to see arcane night elves and a proper arcane night elf culture? I am, and I'm loving that they have a different model. Hopefully they will become playable, I don't particularly care whether it is as a sub-race of night elves or full separate night elven race. Like humans and gilneans are, I've always loved that fantasy about them, and when they introduced them with that backstory, I always thought that they would fix them and help them recover from that back to the great society they once were.

I don't think they'd ever make them dominate the world like before, not with humans and orcs, but I think they'd at least restore their excellence in the arcane and they'd be able to start working towards that. I see the nightborne as an essential ingredient to that. Whether as a full playable race in their own rights or as a sub-race - as long as normal night elves and nightborne get together, I think this is the start of the great night elf recovery we've been waiting for.

- - - Updated - - -

You're conflating culture with race. snip

I'm not at all, I'm in fact highlighting it.

and when you say race - do you know the term is sometimes used in reference to a political alignment, sometimes cultural sometimes genetical - I took lengths to explain the context in which it was being used.

What is night elf? night elf is a nocturnal elf, an elf of the night. Child of the Stars.

This also gains a cultural and political meaning, which is still the same group genetically, as they have a cultures, customs, etc, but they are all the same genetically. Unlike trolls who deviate between jungle trolls, ice trolls, sand trolls etc.

The night elves have now deviated, the influencing factor of change were the energies of the nightwell. They didn't change them from being night elves (culturally) they changed them from how they were before - changed them away from that kind of night elf to this kind of night elf.

It's still night elf culturally. It's like jungle trolls, ice trolls, zandalari - they all have genetic variations but all are trolls. Now nightborne and night elf do vary genetically but they are still night elves culturally and they ares still elves of the night.

It's a new group. But a new group of night elf.

[Mehrunes]

I'm not at all, I'm in fact highlighting it.

You made the argument that Nightborne have to be Night Elves because they exist in a Night Elven city, are still "nocturnal" and share aspects of Night Elven (Highborne variety at least) at least three times. How the hell is that not conflating race with culture?

[ravenmoon]

You're conflating culture with race.

you can clearly see that's not what I'm doing, I'm hilighting the difference by clearly explaining in which context i use the term night elf. JUst when I say race i don't mean genetically the same race, i mean race as in the group of elves that are of the night. nocturnal elves. Genetically they are a new race changed from what they were, but not changed away from nocturnal elf (night elf) umbrella like the blood elves were. You know you can be genetically diverse and still be night elf (culturally).

Except you denied them being a new race of Elves and called them merely a prominent group.

I did both, to emphasize in what sense I was talking as. Y ou can tell when i mean genetical, when I mean culturally, when i mean nomenclature and when I mean political faction. I provide the context I don't have to always specify. It's like i can refer to a night elf as an elf, I don't always have to say night elf., though i can do.

And one of them was transformed by the Nightwell.

That's what we are saying. transformed from being night elf like they use to be, a new race but still a night elven race. Still a nocturnal race of elves (which is what night elf is) and still culturally night elf.

Your scenario lacks a font of magical energy that transformed the bodies of the New York population so your analogy is off.

I'm giving an example in order to illustrate what I'm referring to. I'm not denying a change has occurred. A deviation from the normal night elf has occurred, it's not as severe as teh high elf one, but it is a deviation, I'm fully acknowledging that they are a new race, but a new race of elf, and clearly a new race of night elf. They haven't stopped being night elves, they've just stopped being those kinda of night elves (points at Tyrande and Darnassus night elves.

Except for the cases when Blizzard outright says they no longer are. Did they say Highborne of Eldre'Thalas are a new race? Nope. Did they say that Nightborne are? They sure did.

Chronicles say the nightborne are a new race.. does that mean they are not a new race of elves? does that mean they are not a new race of night elves? ofc not. Context. Blizzard often right the night elves distrust the highborne - does that mean the highborne aren't night elves? no it doesn't. From the context you can see that the nightborne a new race, but a new race of night elf.

It's not hard elves have multiple deviations, now you have one more, but one that is within the night elf bracket. They are still night elf culturally, they are still elven and nocturnal, they haven't stopped being night elves, they've just stopped being the old kind of night elf. It's not hard.

Just because Highborne of Eldre'Thalas are still Kal'dorei doesn't mean Nighborne are. You offered absolutely no substantiation to that claim other than "there's factions and then there's races".

What makes you think that the nightborne are no longer children of the stars? They seem more moon/star focused than the Kalimdor group if you're on the beta. You really get to see why the night elves called themselves Children of the Stars - very much tied to their arcane practices - which the Vigil group gave up, but the neither of the highborne or nightborne groups did. And in the nightborne you see the full extent of it.

Blizzard are making the pre-sundering night elf group a different race - it's not to say they aren't night elven culturally or they aren't night elven - nocturnal elves (nomenclature) they are, just now that group has two variations,, not just one. Both are night elven culturally and definition wise. The genetic racial definition of night elf does not have to stay exclusive to the ones we've already met, it can also extend to this

Blood Elves didn't become a new race because they changed their belief system, they became a new race because they physically changed. That's what race in WoW refers to.

Blood elves became a new race because of all those factors, the genetic change is also small, they didn't change from being Elves - night part is what changed - and that's a nomenclature thing - they changed both culturally and habitually - they were no longer nocturnal elves, I am not saying they didn't alter genetically also, but for all we know the genetic difference between night elves and high elves could be no different from black humans and white humans or far east asian humans. We know the contributing factor are the Well, but they are all of the same substance, whether it's the Well of Eternity, the Sunwell or the Night Well - it's all from the same source, it's just that the sunwell is slightly altered, and the nightwell has become so. The distinction is a lot more than genetics to be playable. compare normal humans and undead humans both are playable as separate races, they didn't have to be. Would you put the forsaken elves or darkfallen as a separate race? You could doif you wanted, wouldn't stop them from still being of the high elven shoot.

The one in terms of race is wrong, you're arguing against Word of God and the only place that would be taken with any seriousness would be fanfiction.net.

Can you not see what I'm doing here, I'm highlighting that the term night elf can be used to mean genetically - like the groups we've met up till Legion were all in which case the nightborne are not the same as those (they are not night elves, meaning they are not those night elves any longer) and in the other sense, night elf is also used to mean culturall night elf and habitually by nomenclature i.e. nocturnal elf or elf of the night - that is also night elf - now there is a difference - the nightborne are still night elves by definition and culturally but not exactly night elves genetically like they use to be.

If you evolved a little, in your same old culture, lets just say your ears had a slight tilt change, your skin colour don't a different hue of white (or black), you had genetically changed a little - would you still consider yourself human, american (or whatever country you're from)? you've been living like that all this time, you would still consider yourself yourself even though you've changed. You're a new person, but you're still human, and you're still white (or black) just a different kind now.

Except that's literally what the Chronicles said. It said that they became a new race.

Chronicles did not say they became a new race of elves does that therefore mean they are no longer elves? ofc not, it didn't say they became a new race of night elves, does that mean they are no longer night elves? ofc not - look

Again, culture =/= race.

exactly what i'm saying. Being night elf culturally and habitually is just as valid for being referred to as night elf as being genetically was. In other words, because they are no longer genetically identical to what is commonly known as night elf doesn't make them not night elf. You could say they're not night elf genetically anymore, but they are night elf by nomenclature and culture.

So when I say the nightborne are night elves i am meaning culturally and habitually, not genetically. I'm also trying to say that the definition is no longer exclusively tied to the genetic identity of the older version. Because in the nightborne for the first time you have a different genetic elf that is still culturally night elf and still habitually night elf - you didn't have that with the high elves.

I explain it in very simple terms, they are night elves as in race (by which i mean habitually/culturally) but not the night elves as in faction (as in genetically that type, who also politically aligned with the alliance - referring to that race of night elve)

Wow always has races with genetical variations too. We often call them sub-races - sure some of them are distinct enough to be their own race. Note that every sub-race can be made a full race. You just have to give them unique enough identity. The way blizzard does this is a host of things, different silhouette, architecture, culture, customs etc - the nightborne can qualify as a full race on their own, but they would be a different race of night elf

Indeed it shouldn't. Because Chronicles made it abundantly clear they are a new race.

and everything you are shown about them shows you they are elven, and they are night elven - so you conclude they are a new race of night elven. A different race of night elves.

This is the conclusion.

Since when is there some required degree of differences required to count races different from one another?

And now you're conflating races with nations.

Just highlighting once again that night elf term is also used in political faction (i.e. nation sense) as well as it is used in cultural sense , as well in a habitual/definition sense as well as a genetic sense, these aren't all the same anymore. This is what is being shown.

How gracious of you to allow people to believe the actual lore /s And what makes them not Night Elves? The part where they transformed because of the Nightwell.

makes them not night elves in the terms of genetics, i.e. not exactly the same as current main group genetically, but still night elven culturally, habitually, thematically etc.

Was the "new race" in Chronicles not new and race-y enough for you? There's also Orc in Orcas, that doesn't make Orcas a type race of Orcs.

I think you should ask yourself that question. Did Chronicles need to spell it out to you that they were elves and that they were night elven. It is quite clear that those night elves have genetically changed to something new. But as you can see what they have bvcome is not a new race like nagaa or satyr, they still remain elven and they still remain night elven - so it's logical that you conclude they have become a new race of night elves.

You expand your definition.. night elves don't only come in one genetically version, they now come in two.

You still offer absolutely no proof of that other than baseless claim of "faction, not the race" and expecting us you believe you because reasons. And funnily enough, Blizzard telling their story included them becoming a new race.

pick up Legion and play i, read night elf lore, warcraft narrative, wotA, your proof is right in front of you.

This is not new magical kingdom that suddnely existed, this si a night elven kindgom, night elven city with night elven nightborne.

Did Blood Elves stop being Elves when they were transformed from Night Elves? Nope. So by that logic everything is fine. They stop being Elves only by your sorry excuse of logic conjured up only to deflect the Word of God because you have nothing else to stand on.

I think by this point my point should be very clear.

How does two races of Night Elves even make sense? Elves are a category of races. Night Elves are not. Night Elves are an example of a race. There can't be two races of Night Elves just like there can't be two races of Pale Orcs.

In a similar way americans view black humans, caucasian humans mongoloid humans as different races of humans.

In the same way in woww, you have different types of trolls, or gnomes or dwarves or Tauren - differnet genetically but you still call them tauren or dwarves. Now night elves have that variation. What makes you think that it's okay to do this for other races, but all of sudden you can't expand night elves?

[Zulkhan]

They consider themselves Nightborne, setting themselves apart further from the original. So even culturally they changed over 10.000 years. If the high elves survive they too might become another different elven race in a few thousand years.

And then, they'll finally be playable! *faked nerdgasm*

No, the current night elves are not closest to their original culture, druidism only took off seriously with Malfurion, a student talent enough for Cenarius to really teach. Having given up their arcane lifestyle they were all ears and devoted their intelligence to nature and developed. It is the nightborne that closest to their original culture.

No? You're quite ignoring what "original" means. ORIGINALLY the Night Elves were more or less what they are now, just less developed in the druidic arts and as a people/nation overall.

The rise of the Highborne was a deviation from the original Night Elf culture.

This also gains a cultural and political meaning.

It does not. "Night Elves" are a race, not a political affiliation. The Highborne are Night Elves. The Blood Elves aren't. The Nightborne aren't.

[Mace]

It's not hard elves have multiple deviations, now you have one more, but one that is within the night elf bracket. They are still night elf culturally, they are still elven and nocturnal, they haven't stopped being night elves, they've just stopped being the old kind of night elf. It's not hard.

I don't see what's so hard about it either, they seem very night elfy to me, okay not your usual kind, but a new kind. So what if it's a new kind of night elf? big deal - blizzard can do what they want, they are their own people and have become different from the main body of night elves. The main body of night elves changed culturally, while these ones changed physically. Both seem very elven and very night elven to me. But you can call them what you want. The walls of text are just confusing people.

At the end of the day their culture is night elven, their habits are night elven if for you that qualifies enough for you to view them as night elves sure, they are physically different, not much, but they are, for you if that makes them not night elves to you then view them that way. Both are correct, it's just some people are treating a completely made up universe like it's some exact science. Aren't all the elves the same thing just packaged differently? Are you fighting over packaging?

The topic is completely de-railed for over page now, can't you private message each other?

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No? You're quite ignoring what "original" means. ORIGINALLY the Night Elves were more or less what they are now, just less developed in the druidic arts and as a people/nation overall.

The rise of the Highborne was a deviation from the original Night Elf culture.

now who is making up lore now. Highborne were never a different race nor a different culture, they were a social caste magic prowress rather than swordsmanship nobility being the distinguishing factor.

It does not. "Night Elves" are a race, not a political affiliation. The Highborne are Night Elves. The Blood Elves aren't. The Nightborne aren't.

night elf can refer to race, political affliation or culture - it can simply mean a nocturnal elf. Depends on the context you are using it. The highborne and the nightborne are both night elven cultures but the blood elves are not.

Anyway, the more we respond to this thee more we derail.

[ravenmoon]

I don't see what's so hard about it either, they seem very night elfy to me, okay not your usual kind, but a new kind. So what if it's a new kind of night elf? big deal - blizzard can do what they want, they are their own people and have become different from the main body of night elves. The main body of night elves changed culturally, while these ones changed physically. Both seem very elven and very night elven to me. But you can call them what you want. The walls of text are just confusing people.

At the end of the day their culture is night elven, their habits are night elven if for you that qualifies enough for you to view them as night elves sure, they are physically different, not much, but they are, for you if that makes them not night elves to you then view them that way. Both are correct, it's just some people are treating a completely made up universe like it's some exact science. Aren't all the elves the same thing just packaged differently? Are you fighting over packaging?

which is why going by what I am shown about them, I'm shown night elven culture, night elven city, night elven customs and habits, not quite night elven appearance but close.
We really don't know the extent of genetic changes induced by the differences in the well. All we know is that it's different. But how much we actually don't know. When they say new or different it could mean to a number of varying degrees.. we can tell to an extent on appearance though.

naga are very different from night elves, as night elves are very different from trolls, so to satyr are from night elves. Yet blood elves are not that radically different - slightly shorter, very different skin etc, the more profound changes are habitually and culturally. The nightborne the differences with night elves are even smaller - they look very similar, tiny ear difference, same height, same manner to them, skin tone is only slightly varied.

So a genetical difference is not the all consuming factor here when cultural, habitual and the rest still continue to very much be night elven. I can't help but conclude that this is still a night elven culture, but the race has now diversified. the new group is nightborne the other group still just plainly night elves. Nightborne have not stopped be. When you visit Suramar and the nightborne, they feel very night elven, just a cooler night elf group.

[Rhlor]

shaldori not have the same culture as the kaldorei

[ravenmoon]

Part of me wonders if they make the nightborne playable, would they become crap like what they did with the night elves? or will the nightborne be the factor that makes the night elves badass again.

[Mace]

Part of me wonders if they make the nightborne playable, would they become crap like what they did with the night elves? or will the nightborne be the factor that makes the night elves badass again.

just be grateful they actually did the nightborne, they've done very little regarding night elves for nearly 14 years, and tbh, I'm surprised they came back to them. And I'm actually glad they gave new models for them too instead of using your regular night elf... they basically made highborne a race in the nightborne. For me that's lovely, especially when it comes to sub-races now I use to wonder what they'd do for night elves because they had none, - they could give high elves, but it never really fit, felt more a human thing even though they are night elf sub-race - whole theme thing. The highborne used identical models - which i thought was a bit of a wasted opportunity, they couldn't give the Cenarians beacause of the 4-legged thing ofc and besides they could be a full race too. So, I was glad about the nightborne, and tbh, a new race in wow is often quite robust, they give them teeth, they don't make them rubbish.

If they come as a sub-race, I'm not sure how they'll play it though- as for me, I can indulge my drow fantasy through the nightborne, which might be why I also badly wanted the return of the arcane night elf from the get go.

IF the nightborne join the horde, I'm pretty sure they'd be written pretty awesome, although you might not like that, and though the night elves would really need their long lost kin, it may not work out all rose and peaches either - although tbh, it would be nice if it did for a change, i'm tired of night elven tragedy - let their next t=10 years just be filled with amazing success and victories.

[steelballfc]

Night Elves treat even non-Highborne that became Mages like shit, not to mention the Highborne themselves. Why would Nightborne pick them over Blood Elves if they had to pick anything, when Blood Elves are a nation of magic just like they are? And whose Sunwell could potentially offer sustenance to them due to being partially Arcane (if Legion goes back on their promise as the tide turns against them and use everything the Nightwell offers they'd be in a dire need of replacement)? Especially since link with the Sunwell has much wider radius while link to Nightwell is cut off much more easily. The Holy part of Sunwell could maybe help them heal their dependency in the long term too.




You're conflating culture with race.




Except you denied them being a new race of Elves and called them merely a prominent group.




And one of them was transformed by the Nightwell.




Your scenario lacks a font of magical energy that transformed the bodies of the New York population so your analogy is off.




Except for the cases when Blizzard outright says they no longer are. Did they say Highborne of Eldre'Thalas are a new race? Nope. Did they say that Nightborne are? They sure did.




Just because Highborne of Eldre'Thalas are still Kal'dorei doesn't mean Nighborne are. You offered absolutely no substantiation to that claim other than "there's factions and then there's races".




Blood Elves didn't become a new race because they changed their belief system, they became a new race because they physically changed. That's what race in WoW refers to.




The one in terms of race is wrong, you're arguing against Word of God and the only place that would be taken with any seriousness would be fanfiction.net.




Except that's literally what the Chronicles said. It said that they became a new race. For them to still be Night Elves ("race, not faction, lel") that would mean they were not Night Elves prior to the transformation and transformed into Night Elves. We know that to be false. The only alternative is that they transformed out of Night Elves, into a new race of Nightborne.




Again, culture =/= race.




Indeed it shouldn't. Because Chronicles made it abundantly clear they are a new race.




Since when is there some required degree of differences required to count races different from one another?




And now you're conflating races with nations.




How gracious of you to allow people to believe the actual lore /s And what makes them not Night Elves? The part where they transformed because of the Nightwell.




Was the "new race" in Chronicles not new and race-y enough for you? There's also Orc in Orcas, that doesn't make Orcas a type race of Orcs.




You still offer absolutely no proof of that other than baseless claim of "faction, not the race" and expecting us you believe you because reasons. And funnily enough, Blizzard telling their story included them becoming a new race.




Did Blood Elves stop being Elves when they were transformed from Night Elves? Nope. So by that logic everything is fine. They stop being Elves only by your sorry excuse of logic conjured up only to deflect the Word of God because you have nothing else to stand on.




How does two races of Night Elves even make sense? Elves are a category of races. Night Elves are not. Night Elves are an example of a race. There can't be two races of Night Elves just like there can't be two races of Pale Orcs.




So now you're mixing not just nations with races, but also afflictions, undeath and in some cases ignoring the fact that some of these races are indeed different.




And even more conflating.




He had no active subscription between the movie's release and Legion's release and couldn't get that mog?

I must appreciate you effort, I enjoyed reading your replies.
*removing his hat out of respect*

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can't you private message each other?

oh no we can not do that.
you are trying to remove my popcorn time !

[Beloren]

So if they are night elven culturally, night elven habitually, night elven thematically but not quite night elven physically (very close tho) - does that not make the nightborne a night elven race?

[ravenmoon]

So if they are night elven culturally, night elven habitually, night elven thematically but not quite night elven physically (very close tho) - does that not make the nightborne a night elven race?

exactly. It makes them a new night elven race It's just a nomenclature confusion. When I say they are a night elven race, I don't mean they are the same as Tyrande and that group - they've obviously changed, by the nightwell, but they are still night elven in the broader sense because of it's THE night elven culture of the past.

Blizzard were very clear in their interviews when they said we wanted to show what night elven civilization would look like if they didn't stop using arcane magic (vigil night elves) or fall to ruin (highborne), so for this they have done nightborne - a different form of night elven.

With the nightborne people should be able to see a night elven arcane side - the good and not so good. That was the idea anyway.

[Mace]

So if they are night elven culturally, night elven habitually, night elven thematically but not quite night elven physically (very close tho) - does that not make the nightborne a night elven race?

yes, and no. Yes It's night elven but pre-sundering, but not current night elven (so no in that sense) - because current night elven we think of us Darnassus lot labelled the night elf race
So, what blizzard has done now, by creating nightborne, they've honed in on pre-sundering night elven and it's now called nightborne post sundering. But it is night elven in origin. If you are referring to that (pre-sundering arcane night elven civilization after the sundering, then it has a new name, nightborne all that was night elven is now nightborne - new package.
So the argument is silly, it seems to have gone on because the people arguing always want to be right.
You call it something else to avoid confusion, so when we say night elven you should continue to think of night elves that look like the Darnassus bunch, when you say nightborne you know you're referring to the advanced ancient night elven arcane culture that continued on.

But if some of you keep insisting on the term can be a bit confusing. remember peeps, you don't always have to be right, sometimes by trying to insist everyone sees it that way you end up confusing and alienating others. You don't have to do that even if others are.

Everyone knows how night elven the nightborne are, it's right there infront of them, and if they play legion and pay attention to what's been said, it will be abundantly clear, however you don't call them night elves but nightborne to avoid confusion. You don't need people to agree with you that they are nightborne night elves, nightborne elves or just nightborne. Even when all three are true, remember most people are not fans of the night elves, they don't view the pre-sundering arcane culture of the night elves as night elven they haven't read the books and couldn't care less- night elven to them looks like the tree nature people to them - that's how blizzard has made them now. So now blizzard has brought to light the arcane night elven culture a new name, nightborne is given this group, modified bodies etc...make them a little different so there is a clear difference despite the also quite clear similarities - no longer exactly the same. Everyone will see them and go night elf -like, but not night elf, would read up on them, realize oh this is the night elven bunch that stuck to the arcane they look this way and the ones that went to nature they look that way.

Blizzard may be wanting to package it that way, it doesn't take away their ancient night elvenness, it doesn't mean that they won't be partnering or even uniting with the night elves. This way they have a unique night elven identity that's nightborne, and you know it's different from the night elves.

As for me I shall enjoy them, the world doesn't have to think of them as night elves, it's clear that they are, let them think of them in their own unique identity as nightborne - it has it's own look etc, you can't mistake a nightborne for a night elf any more than you can mistake a Drakkari troll for an amani troll or zandalari

[Rhlor]

So if they are night elven culturally, night elven habitually, night elven thematically but not quite night elven physically (very close tho) - does that not make the nightborne a night elven race?

the night elves rejected the magic and living in big cities, are a civilization of the forest. the nightborne are a sophisticated urban culture where magic is crucial

[Zenny]

Other then the whole "night" theme, Nightborne have more in common with Blood Elves then the do Night Elves.

[ravenmoon]

yes, and no. Yes It's night elven but pre-sundering, but not current night elven (so no in that sense) - because current night elven we think of us Darnassus lot labelled the night elf race
So, what blizzard has done now, by creating nightborne, they've honed in on pre-sundering night elven and it's now called nightborne post sundering. But it is night elven in origin. If you are referring to that (pre-sundering arcane night elven civilization after the sundering, then it has a new name, nightborne all that was night elven is now nightborne - new package.
So the argument is silly, it seems to have gone on because the people arguing always want to be right.
You call it something else to avoid confusion, so when we say night elven you should continue to think of night elves that look like the Darnassus bunch, when you say nightborne you know you're referring to the advanced ancient night elven arcane culture that continued on.

But if some of you keep insisting on the term can be a bit confusing. remember peeps, you don't always have to be right, sometimes by trying to insist everyone sees it that way you end up confusing and alienating others. You don't have to do that even if others are.

Everyone knows how night elven the nightborne are, it's right there infront of them, and if they play legion and pay attention to what's been said, it will be abundantly clear, however you don't call them night elves but nightborne to avoid confusion. You don't need people to agree with you that they are nightborne night elves, nightborne elves or just nightborne. Even when all three are true, remember most people are not fans of the night elves, they don't view the pre-sundering arcane culture of the night elves as night elven they haven't read the books and couldn't care less- night elven to them looks like the tree nature people to them - that's how blizzard has made them now. So now blizzard has brought to light the arcane night elven culture a new name, nightborne is given this group, modified bodies etc...make them a little different so there is a clear difference despite the also quite clear similarities - no longer exactly the same. Everyone will see them and go night elf -like, but not night elf, would read up on them, realize oh this is the night elven bunch that stuck to the arcane they look this way and the ones that went to nature they look that way.

Blizzard may be wanting to package it that way, it doesn't take away their ancient night elvenness, it doesn't mean that they won't be partnering or even uniting with the night elves. This way they have a unique night elven identity that's nightborne, and you know it's different from the night elves.

As for me I shall enjoy them, the world doesn't have to think of them as night elves, it's clear that they are, let them think of them in their own unique identity as nightborne - it has it's own look etc, you can't mistake a nightborne for a night elf any more than you can mistake a Drakkari troll for an amani troll or zandalari

but it's not wrong that they are night elven race, just not the same as kind as the current night elves. Night elf use to only mean the daranssus group when they were no other types around. Then we met the highborne, and night elf were not just nature hippies any longer, and now we have met the nightborne and found out that they also don't come in that form. So yes they're not Kalimdor type night elves, but instead a new kind of night elf called nightborne.

I think Rhlor thinks they are some new elven race that's got nothing to do with night elves like the blood elves - and this is clearly not the case. Yes they are new, yes they are very different to current night elves culturally, a little different physically, but they are very much an arcane night elf civilization - they are not something brand new, new civilization like the high elves became... this is what started this back and forth, because he has mentioned this before and I think he thinks that nightborne aren't night elf which astounds me when they are pre-sundering night elves in their arcane culture, in their very night elven city, with their new night elven bodies. It's a night elf, just not the playable night elves. It's like if blizzard got down and gave the high elves a new model and had them altered physically by the period they were without the sunwell, and say it changed them further, they'd still be Thalassian elves even though they'd be a new elf group.

the night elves rejected the magic and living in big cities, are a civilization of the forest. the nightborne are a sophisticated urban culture where magic is crucial

yes, nightborne and kalimdor night elven culture are very different, they are both night elven cultures. We just call pre-sundering night elven culture nightborne. It hasn't stopped being night elven. It is no less night elven just because those night elves are now nightborne. It is what it is, they now call it nightborne. You know a racial group can have more than one culture right.. Look at the dwarves with 5, the humans with quite a few too, same with the trolls. The highborne and the nightborne are of the ancient arcane culture - the highborne call theirs highborne culture, the nightborne call theirs nightborne - they are variations of the pre-sundering night elven culture but keep the same root. Meanwhile the post-vigil night elves have their own post-vigil culture. A new culture will emerge in time from the interaction of all these groups. if they mix, but night elves don't generally mix... but then it's a new day, the day sof isolation are over and hopefully sulking too.

[Zulkhan]

the nightborne are a sophisticated urban culture where magic is crucial

Which reminds....oh, wait:

Other then the whole "night" theme, Nightborne have more in common with Blood Elves then the do Night Elves.

That.