Classic World of Warcraft Discussion [Megathread]

[Relapses]

A bad analogy since the competition didn't happen. Probably would have happened, could have happened, should have happened, but did not happen. Actually there was no evidence at the time that a different MMORPG would have implemented them. Bad research teams at Blizzard, if this is what you are asserting.

Do you honestly think that no other MMO developer would have thought about the really fucking obvious matchmaking solutions to finding groups the LFD provided? Do you actually believe that WoW would have continued to skyrocket in popularity simply because there wasn't a LFG?

"Gee Bob, I sure do love spending hours finding groups! There's absolutely nothing else in the world I'd rather do than sit in /2 and spam "LF1M tank Gun'drak" for an hour." -nobody, ever

The LFG provided a solution to an inconvenience experienced by many players. If WoW didn't introduce something like this, somebody else would have. And at the time these tools were introduced, WoW had more to lose by refusing to adapt than they did simply by being the trendsetters themselves. It doesn't matter if the hypothetical I made never occurred because you can't retroactively go back in time and invent a game environment where WoW continued to exist without QoL tools.

And once again, you simply cannot say the loss of subscribers was solely due to the QoL tools, nor can you say that the game was more popular because they weren't around. To do that, you'd need to poll literally every player who ever quit the game and every player who ever joined. But I strongly, strongly doubt an even remotely significant number of players either joined or quit due to these features.

[Vineri]

What you mean you wish this thread was a circle jerk of pro-Legacy people and that the thread would be half the size it is now? Yeah how dare people have opinions that you don't share! /gasp

Of course not. Regardless of how little you may value my opinions, I value yours and others. If we are different, it's only because we're working different sides of the same puzzle sometimes. Take it as you will.

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Do you honestly think that no other MMO developer would have thought about the really fucking obvious matchmaking solutions to finding groups the LFD provided? Do you actually believe that WoW would have continued to skyrocket in popularity simply because there wasn't a LFG?

"Gee Bob, I sure do love spending hours finding groups! There's absolutely nothing else in the world I'd rather do than sit in /2 and spam "LF1M tank Gun'drak" for an hour." -nobody, ever

The LFG provided a solution to an inconvenience experienced by many players. If WoW didn't introduce something like this, somebody else would have. And at the time these tools were introduced, WoW had more to lose by refusing to adapt than they did simply by being the trendsetters themselves. It doesn't matter if the hypothetical I made never occurred because you can't retroactively go back in time and invent a game environment where WoW continued to exist without QoL tools.

And once again, you simply cannot say the loss of subscribers was solely due to the QoL tools, nor can you say that the game was more popular because they weren't around. To do that, you'd need to poll literally every player who ever quit the game and every player who ever joined. But I strongly, strongly doubt an even remotely significant number of players either joined or quit due to these features.

The inconvenience you describe existed during rapid growth, I guess people liked it.

When the inconvenience was taken away, subs fell.

Perhaps the inconvenience you describe helped people feel social and relevant to their peers? It made the game feel RPG'ish? This extra step, defending your abilities and equipment to a group leader, instead of just silently getting into a group and silently leaving?

BTW, you still didn't identify a competitor, yet you state that another company "might" have beat WoW to this magical PVE group finder. What market research was behind this blunder? =P

[Sting]

The inconvenience you describe existed during rapid growth, I guess people liked it.

When the inconvenience was taken away, subs fell.

This is a shit argument. "A friend of mine played back then, I guess people liked him a lot, because when he left, boy did subs drop."

[Deleted]

Is empathy the new buzz word of the day? Do we all start yelling and clapping when you use it? You don't even know how to use it properly.

Empathy is the ability to sense or understand someone else's feelings as if they were one's own.

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3, 2,1, let's jam!

[Relapses]

Of course not. Regardless of how little you may value my opinions, I value yours and others. If we are different, it's only because we're working different sides of the same puzzle sometimes. Take it as you will.

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The inconvenience you describe existed during rapid growth, I guess people liked it.

When the inconvenience was taken away, subs fell.

Perhaps the inconvenience you describe helped people feel social and relevant to their peers? It made the game feel RPG'ish? This extra step, defending your abilities and equipment to a group leader, instead of just silently getting into a group and silently leaving?

BTW, you still didn't identify a competitor, yet you state that another company "might" have beat WoW to this magical PVE group finder. What market research was behind this blunder? =P

You're completely missing the point again.

There were more things that kept people coming to play WoW than the lack of the group finder while it was in periods of growth and there are far more reasons people quit playing WoW after the QoL tools were introduced. You cannot say the game was more popular because of the lack of QoL tools any more than you can say the game became less popular due to their introduction. To do so would require you to interview every player who joined or quit during the six years leading up to the introduction of QoL tools and the six years after they were introduced. Since none of us have access to this information, all you're doing is drawing conclusions where no conclusion is to be drawn. You're taking two individual factors and saying that they're related when the reality of the situation is infinitely more complex.

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Empathy is the ability to sense or understand someone else's feelings as if they were one's own.

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3, 2,1, let's jam!

I don't see how me mentioning that this thread's 1.5 million views were indicative of something other than what you implied is evidence of a lack of empathy on my part, but whatever floats your boat.

[Darktbs]

You say basicly that is because of LFG addition that the subs starting to drop.But that is vague,i mean.One can say it was because Blizz added Death Knights,or because Arthas became a Boss,or because they added Worgens and goblins,because they introduced Three final patch dungeons,because they try to balance all classes and so on.

Your Coincidence is vague since there are multiple things that happen along side LFG that could be the cause.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

WoW will most likely keep pushing crap content and blame the fact that the game is old when sub numbers go down and down.

Just know it isn't true. They just made the game too crappy.

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I wonder. Does any Legacy player really think that the game is at all salvageable at this point? I personally cannot see it anymore. So sad.

Because they play the game. Hate to break it to you but blizzard doesn't make excuses like that. They don't believe anything they do is crap. It's the playerbase (out of touch casuals like yourself) who feel too entitled to accept their additions. Obviously WoD was shit but mop was the biggest expansion yet and legion is looking to be just as big unless they are lying about the patches. Have fun in your own little world though!

[Vineri]

You're completely missing the point again.

There were more things that kept people coming to play WoW than the lack of the group finder while it was in periods of growth and there are far more reasons people quit playing WoW after the QoL tools were introduced. You cannot say the game was more popular because of the lack of QoL tools any more than you can say the game became less popular due to their introduction. To do so would require you to interview every player who joined or quit during the six years leading up to the introduction of QoL tools and the six years after they were introduced. Since none of us have access to this information, all you're doing is drawing conclusions where no conclusion is to be drawn. You're taking two individual factors and saying that they're related when the reality of the situation is infinitely more complex.

It's still objective fact that subs fell after auto-LFG, plateauing sharply during late WotLK when implemented, an expansion that should have excelled. Then falling thereafter

[Kyanion]

You say basicly that is because of LFG addition that the subs starting to drop.But that is vague,i mean.One can say it was because Blizz added Death Knights,or because Arthas became a Boss,or because they added Worgens and goblins,because they introduced Three final patch dungeons,because they try to balance all classes and so on.

Your Coincidence is vague since there are multiple things that happen along side LFG that could be the cause.

Oh come on, like he'll see the light of day no matter how many times we show him. He just wants to assume that because LFD came into existance it doomed the game.

[Deleted]

I don't see how me mentioning that this thread's 1.5 million views were indicative of something other than what you implied is evidence of a lack of empathy on my part, but whatever floats your boat.

Blah blah blah.

The topic's popularity speaks for itself. It has died down in recent times for obvious reasons (normal people burn out).

Keep posting so you can further reveal your lack of empathy. It's incredibly amusing.

Idle hands are the Devil's playground.

[Kyanion]

It's still objective fact that subs fell after auto-LFG, plateauing sharply during late WotLK when implemented, an expansion that should have excelled. Then falling thereafter

Yet that does not mean LFD was the cause for the sub loss...You say subs plateaued when LFD hit, maybe it was because the end of the expansion was coming out or they gained all of the subs they were likely going to get and that was the high point of growth for the game never to reach it again. There are a number of factors that caused subs to cap out where they did and to fall down afterwards. You can NOT pin it on a single thing and expect people to take you seriously in this thread.

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Blah blah blah.

The topic's popularity speaks for itself. It has died down in recent times for obvious reasons (normal people burn out).

Keep posting so you can further reveal your lack of empathy. It's incredibly amusing.

Idle hands are the Devil's playground.

It died down because people didn't get the circle-jerk they wanted no matter how hard they tried. Go back over the 4 months of this thread and then all the threads created about this topic and the polls and look how negative the community is here to Nost and Legacy in general. Once the youtube 'celebs' and twitch 'personalities' did their little spiel about it and moved on shit died down even further. The real telling blow was that nothing major came out of those Kern and Nost meetings. I think most of your pro-Legacy people realized that was that for now and moved on.

[Relapses]

It's still objective fact that subs fell after auto-LFG, plateauing sharply during late WotLK when implemented, an expansion that should have excelled. Then falling thereafter

The graph doesn't prove anything, I really wish you'd stop posting it as if it means anything at this point. You're simply not grasping the concept that what you're saying and what actually happened are independent of one another. Who's to say Cata wouldn't have crashed and burned even worse than it did if the features you dislike weren't in the game? Further, you cannot say "the expansion should have excelled," because there's even less proof that the game's subsequent losses weren't from a general shift away from MMO popularity as a whole.

[Deleted]

It died down because people didn't get the circle-jerk they wanted no matter how hard they tried. Go back over the 4 months of this thread and then all the threads created about this topic and the polls and look how negative the community is here to Nost and Legacy in general. Once the youtube 'celebs' and twitch 'personalities' did their little spiel about it and moved on shit died down even further. The real telling blow was that nothing major came out of those Kern and Nost meetings. I think most of your pro-Legacy people realized that was that for now and moved on.

The Witcher 3
Bloodborne


Learn to be reasonable. We can always leave.

[Kyanion]

The graph doesn't prove anything, I really wish you'd stop posting it as if it means anything at this point. You're simply not grasping the concept that what you're saying and what actually happened are independent of one another. Who's to say Cata wouldn't have crashed and burned even worse than it did if the features you dislike weren't in the game? Further, you cannot say "the expansion should have excelled," because there's even less proof that the game's subsequent losses weren't from a general shift away from MMO popularity as a whole.

Come on now, we know the only thing he wants to hear is: "You are right, they should bring back Legacy or change the current came to be like it."

[Vineri]

Yet that does not mean LFD was the cause for the sub loss...You say subs plateaued when LFD hit, maybe it was because the end of the expansion was coming out or they gained all of the subs they were likely going to get and that was the high point of growth for the game never to reach it again. There are a number of factors that caused subs to cap out where they did and to fall down afterwards. You can NOT pin it on a single thing and expect people to take you seriously in this thread.

The end of the expansion was Arthus. That's not something to miss - I suspect heavy churn during that time - people leaving at the rate people joining. As opposed to other expansions with more people joining than leaving. Churn.

A number of other factors ... care to explain?

[Kyanion]

The end of the expansion was Arthus. That's not something to miss - I suspect heavy churn during that time - people leaving at the rate people joining. As opposed to other expansions with more people joining than leaving. Churn.

A number of other factors ... care to explain?

You mean that ICC raid that was out for 12 months or so by the time Cata released? Lich King was available in Feb, Cata was in Dec of that year. Of course some funny stats do peek out at me from this site

LFD was put out Dec 8th 2009 same date ICC opened. So if LFD was the cause of WoW being ruined, wouldn't subs have dropped substantially by this point? Hell subs didn't even move for an entire YEAR after LFD being implimented. Instead something else happened, subs went up a bit to the highest point they ever hit. So ICC and LFD come out at the same time. A year later subs were at their highest point and a new expansion was coming out. Soooooo....LFD killed the game? Woops. Guess not.

[Vineri]

You mean that ICC raid that was out for 12 months or so by the time Cata released? Lich King was available in Feb, Cata was in Dec of that year. Of course some funny stats do peek out at me from this site

LFD was put out Dec 8th 2009 same date ICC opened. So if LFD was the cause of WoW being ruined, wouldn't subs have dropped substantially by this point? Hell subs didn't even move for an entire YEAR after LFD being implimented. Instead something else happened, subs went up a bit to the highest point they ever hit. So ICC and LFD come out at the same time. A year later subs were at their highest point and a new expansion was coming out. Soooooo....LFD killed the game? Woops. Guess not.

Sure, people did LFD auto groups for a year and got sick of it, or bored to tears. Subscriptions are not simply ended at will, depending on the pre-paid cycle, they could take months to end. But at some point PRIOR to subs falling, players hit Unsubscribe. Added with churn, my theory is not unplausible.

There was a plateau during the best time in Warcraft's storyline.

[Kyanion]

Sure, people did LFD auto groups for a year and got sick of it, or bored to tears. Subscriptions are not simply ended at will, depending on the pre-paid cycle, they could take months to end. But at some point PRIOR to subs falling, players hit Unsubscribe. Added with churn, my theory is not unplausible.

LOL man you just keep on going don't you. I provide proof to you that LFD did not do what you claimed and now you move the goalposts and are like "Oh yeah they got sick of it a YEAR after it came out." Or is it so many millions of people all being paid up for many months at a time? What is it next? Good fucking lord man. You can't admit you are wrong can you?

[Vineri]

LOL man you just keep on going don't you. I provide proof to you that LFD did not do what you claimed and now you move the goalposts and are like "Oh yeah they got sick of it a YEAR after it came out." Or is it so many millions of people all being paid up for many months at a time? What is it next? Good fucking lord man. You can't admit you are wrong can you?

What was your proof? That subs would have dropped immediately because you say so? Hardly proof. And I countered it. Subs would not have dropped immediately. It takes time for a player to get fed up, then more time to wait for a subscription cycle to expire. Only then is it a sub loss.

[Kyanion]

What was your proof? That subs would have dropped immediately because you say so? Hardly proof. And I countered it. Subs would not have dropped immediately. It takes time for a player to get fed up, then more time to wait for a subscription cycle to expire. Only then is it a sub loss.

Holy shit, I am saying that subs did not drop a YEAR after LFD came out. Period. There is no counter. Subs did not drop. Period. A new fucking expansion came out a YEAR after LFD did. You just move the goalposts because your argument got shot to shit in a matter of minutes.