Sylvanas Windrunner, Queen of... Lordaeron?

[Mehrunes]

If he actually adopted him, I don't think he did.

Yeah, if anything Varian was a ward.

[Graden]

If he actually adopted him, I don't think he did.

Techinically he did but that doesn't mean anything, Terenas didn't name Varian successor. Varian was a King of his own and Terenas even treated him as such when they first met, despite Varian's young age. He just offered him his pledge to stand by him until his homeland was retaken.

[Garfurion]

Sylvanas was a subject in the Kingdom of Lordaeron that Arthas ruled. She led the civil war that overthrew him.

I'm not sure Arthas really officially ruled Lordaeron. Arthas himself says

"Ah, but you will now address me as king. This is, after all, my land. I was born to rule and I
shall. Once the—” -- Arthas, Rise of the Lich King, Chapter 21

It's unclear what else he wanted to say since at that moment he lost connection to the Lich King and shortly afterwards was forced to flee from the palace
and go to Icecrown.

Arthas also didn't see his undead minions as subjects but as tools.

"Of course—some of them were still under his command. Were still his subjects—
His tools. His weapons. Not his subjects."-- Arthas, Rise of the Lich King, Chapter 22

I'm pretty sure the right to rule Lordaeron, or what's left of it, won't be decided in court though.

Both Stormwind and Ironforge are examples of kingdoms where one ruling family replaced another with the original ruling family staying around. In the end blood-lines, rules or customs don't matter. It's what the people of a country accept or whoever is strong enough to enforce their rule.

[ryudaraku]

Both Stormwind and Ironforge are examples of kingdoms where one ruling family replaced another with the original ruling family staying around. In the end blood-lines, rules or customs don't matter. It's what the people of a country accept or whoever is strong enough to enforce their rule.

Well that is always the main thing.

[Selastan]

Calia's effective abdication doesn't settle some of this for ya'll? The validity of her claim is a moot, academic point, since she clearly means to waive it. Sylvanas is surely as much "Queen of Lordaeron" as, say, Robert Baratheon was King over the Seven Kingdoms, by right of conquest.

Personally, I would like to see Lor'themar acclaimed as King in Quel'thalas, no point to being a Regent Lord as proxy for noone and awaiting nobody, it isn't like LOTR.

The grey are comes from the fact that Sylvanas doesn't really claim to be queen of Lordaeron, and her people aren't unanimous on calling the kingdom Lordaeron either. Basically, the Forsaken (they really need a name for their domain) rule over the area Lordaeron, but some consider themselves part of the kingdom, some do not. Death isn't the most painful thing all Forsaken share, its the census...

[Deleted]

Can someone explain me why the Alliance should even consider a war against the forsaken to retake Lordaeron other then ‘there used to live humans’?

The war itself might cost a lot of lives if winnable at all since the forsaken are in a much better position with mass destruction weapons, something the Alliance lacks ever since and using fallen humans against humans.

The land is corrupted and plagued, it would take a lot of work to clean that up. It’s so far away that it isn’t sensible at all to use it for resources, especially if you could just utilize the lands of Stormwind kingdom. Considering that the humans of Stormwind didn’t manage to stabilize their own (farm) land (Westfall and Redridge primarily, Duskwood suffers hugely, too), what makes anyone believe they will succeed in Lordaeron? Why wouldn’t they expand into Stranglethorn, Burning Steppes or even Swamp of Sorrows since all of them provide probably a better earth for food than Lordaeron?

How many citizens of Lordaeron that live in exile are actually alive by now? The majority died in Theramore and there is no source stating that many of them reached Stormwind City. Some of them might even still or again live in Lordaeron under the AC protection.

[Aquamonkey]

I'm not sure Arthas really officially ruled Lordaeron. Arthas himself says

"Ah, but you will now address me as king. This is, after all, my land. I was born to rule and I shall. Once the—” -- Arthas, Rise of the Lich King, Chapter 21

It's unclear what else he wanted to say since at that moment he lost connection to the Lich King and shortly afterwards was forced to flee from the palace and go to Icecrown.

He makes them call him King Arthas. Also:

And Arthas, the newly crowned king of Lordaeron has driven the undead Scourge to eradicate the last vestiges of resistance ot his iron rule. His kingdom, the once-proud bastion of human might and nobility, has become a plagued realm of death and sorrow.
--WC3: TFT manual

Arthas also didn't see his undead minions as subjects but as tools.

"Of course—some of them were still under his command. Were still his subjects—
His tools. His weapons. Not his subjects."-- Arthas, Rise of the Lich King, Chapter 22

That was after half rebelled in the civil war. He looked upon them more favorably before that.

Arthas turned them loose then—his new, unquestioning, obedient subjects.
[...]
Arthas did not care what their eventual fate was—carrion for the crows, or new subjects to follow his rule.
--RotLK, Chapter 16

He had ridden the length and breadth of his land, bringing his new subjects to town after town and unleashing them upon the populace.
[...]
He was the Lich King’s favored, and the Scourge was his to command, and in a strange, twisted way, he found that he cared for them.
--RotLK, Chapter 17

Both Stormwind and Ironforge are examples of kingdoms where one ruling family replaced another with the original ruling family staying around. In the end blood-lines, rules or customs don't matter. It's what the people of a country accept or whoever is strong enough to enforce their rule.

Also didn't stop the Alliance from telling the Perenolde line to fuck off while they picked some random dude from the middle of nowhere.

[Highwhale]

Y'know, technically speaking, Teranas sort of adopted Varian for 10 years or so from right after the First War to shortly before the Third War, so law-wise, Anduin as his heir would now be the rightful king of Lordaeron if it were still the kingdom of Lordaeron, since Calia's a girl and apparently couldn't be queen.

Nope. Varian just was for him like son.

PS It would be cool if Arthas had bastard son...

[steelballfc]

Nope. Varian just was for him like son.

PS It would be cool if Arthas had bastard son...

from whom exactly ?!
Jaina !

[Garfurion]

He makes them call him King Arthas. Also:

And Arthas, the newly crowned king of Lordaeron has driven the undead Scourge to eradicate the last vestiges of resistance ot his iron rule. His kingdom, the once-proud bastion of human might and nobility, has become a plagued realm of death and sorrow.
--WC3: TFT manual

Since Arthas, Rise of Lich King was written later then the TFT manual and there is no mention of Arthas being crowned in that book which is all about Arthas I'm assuming the coronation was retconned. I don't think it matters for the right of succession though now that Arthas is dead.

That was after half rebelled in the civil war. He looked upon them more favorably before that.

Arthas turned them loose then—his new, unquestioning, obedient subjects.
[...]
Arthas did not care what their eventual fate was—carrion for the crows, or new subjects to follow his rule.
--RotLK, Chapter 16

He had ridden the length and breadth of his land, bringing his new subjects to town after town and unleashing them upon the populace.
[...]
He was the Lich King’s favored, and the Scourge was his to command, and in a strange, twisted way, he found that he cared for them.
--RotLK, Chapter 17

It doesn't really matter since you do not have to be a subject of a country to become it's monarch but I chose Arthas later view of his minions.

Interestingly enough Sylvanas changed her viewpoint in the opposite direction. She used to consider the Forsaken just tools to be used
but after her suicide attempt in Icecrown and come-back she changed her mind about the Forsaken.

Also didn't stop the Alliance from telling the Perenolde line to fuck off while they picked some random dude from the middle of nowhere.

Clearly, neighboring countries, especially if they are more powerful have to accept a ruler as well or they will try to impose their will. I just wanted to point out that regardless of rules of succession others have to accept a persons authority or a person has to be able to enforce it.

For example, if Arthas was to come back from the dead I doubt any Forsaken or leader of any other nation of Azeroth would accept him as King of Lordaeron even though he would have a "legal" claim to the title.

In the case of Sylvanas, both the Forsaken as a people and the other Horde nations accept her leadership and even the alliance acknowledges her as the ruler of Undercity, even if they would prefer to see it otherwise. I think Varian in the past spoke about containing Sylvanas which means he had no intention of changing the status quo. Forcing the Forsaken out of Lordaeron is something which seems to interest the players more than the NPCs

I think it would be more interesting to speculate what would happen if Terenas came back as a Forsaken since I think he was generally well respected by the people of Lordaeron. Would it result in a Forsaken civil war, and how would the Alliance react ?

[Zulkhan]

The real queen of the former kingdom of Lordaeron is actually Calia Menethil, but from what can be gathered so far, her character has no aspiration in seeing her homeland reclaimed. She insists on only being called Calia in order to put her royal past behind.

Probably because there's nothing to reclaim to begin with.

The situation in Lordaeron is sort of tricky. The rightful heir of Lordaeron, the one prepared for the task, was Arthas. Now there's only Calia, which apart her royal lineage seems to have nothing to offer and wouldn't probably be anything valuable for leadership purposes. Besides that, a kingdom is nothing without its people and the vast majority of those people are now dead or undead. The few survivors either began a new life somewhere else or returned to Lordaeron under the protection of the Argent Crusade. In other words, they don't need a kingdom for protection.

Calia just said what was logical to say, both for the general situation and her character, I think she's likely aware to not be Queen material, Queen of a dead kingdom moreover. Because that's kinda the point, Lordaeron is simply gone. Her royalty and lineage mean nothing. Heck, even if the Alliance would outright conquer Lordaeron and purge the Forsaken out of it, they would likely prefer to control those lands themselves by right of conquest rather than giving them up to a meaningless royal figure holding no power, no land, no subjects, not even respect or acknowledgement among other Alliance leaders, let alone spent no effort in the claiming (not because she would refuse to do so, she simply and clearly lacks the means to spend any effort to begin with).

Law wise Sylvanas is self proclaimed ruler. She was High Elf and had no rights for human kingdom.

The human kingdom is no more, ergo its laws are meaningless.

Techinically he did but that doesn't mean anything, Terenas didn't name Varian successor. Varian was a King of his own and Terenas even treated him as such when they first met, despite Varian's young age. He just offered him his pledge to stand by him until his homeland was retaken.

Terenas had no reason to name Varian successor of anything after all, he already had his legitimate son Arthas to logically cover such role.

[Dreknar20]

Can someone explain me why the Alliance should even consider a war against the forsaken to retake Lordaeron other then ‘there used to live humans’?

casue gaining power is good
gaining power at expense of other = even better
Plus the whole historical nostalogia

[Highwhale]

I think its not about power - more about land. Lordaeron good strategic point - if Alliance manage to conquest whole EK could be under their control. Except elfish land in North.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I think its not about power - more about land. Lordaeron good strategic point - if Alliance manage to conquest whole EK could be under their control. Except elfish land in North.

The fact that it is strategic land is probably why Varian shifted his stance to contain the forsaken. Any effort to get rid of them would cause so many casualties that the rest of the horde could crush them

[Deleted]

casue gaining power is good
gaining power at expense of other = even better
Plus the whole historical nostalogia

Fighting senseless wars when doomsday happens at a rate of 2 years is stupid.
Fighting these wars with massive issues in their own backyard even more.

I think its not about power - more about land. Lordaeron good strategic point - if Alliance manage to conquest whole EK could be under their control. Except elfish land in North.

So the Alliance can be at each other’s throats again? Also what about the dozens of other threats and issues that weren’t dealt with?
Humans are starving, their farmland is wasteland, Defias are still a thing, and apparently no one is mentally capable of becoming an architect or another stone mason. Oh and did I mention the huge orc presence at the backdoor of Khaz’Modan and Stormwind? And MANY others.

Lordaeron is not that strategic. It can be pretty sealed off the rest with a fortified thandol span.

[Mehrunes]

I think its not about power - more about land. Lordaeron good strategic point - if Alliance manage to conquest whole EK could be under their control. Except elfish land in North.

What strategic value is there? They make their border with the Horde larger by coming closer to Quel'thalas. The Forsaken's land can't be farmed. There is no human population left so there is no one to man it. Which means that not only are they elongating their border for nothing, making them more susceptible to naval invasions, they are also spreading their forces thinner (which compounds the border issue). Then they need to spread their engineers and the like to actually fortify these new position since the Forsaken defenses are going to be largely destroyed during the war. Which brings us back to the land being useless - if Forsaken start feeling like they are losing, they will shift to scorched land warfare, but with Blight. Like the strain used in Southshore. They will render the land not just useless, but deadly to live in even for the undead. For centuries.

Lordaeron is not that strategic. It can be pretty sealed off the rest with a fortified thandol span.

Better yet, a destroyed Thandol Span. Which would be the best Alliance-Horde border in the entire Azeroth.

[Highwhale]

Better yet, a destroyed Thandol Span. Which would be the best Alliance-Horde border in the entire Azeroth.

Dont make rushed judgements about Arathi and Hinterlands. Plus i'm doubt AC wanted to be sealed from rest of EK with dead dudes.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Dont make rushed judgements about Arathi and Hinterlands. Plus i'm doubt AC wanted to be sealed from rest of EK with dead dudes.

Atleast the forsaken respect their Alliances with the AC. We see how little loyalty matters to the ebon blade.

[Garfurion]

Better yet, a destroyed Thandol Span. Which would be the best Alliance-Horde border in the entire Azeroth.

I'm not sure the wildhammer dwarves would agree with that

[Friendlyimmolation]

I'm not sure the wildhammer dwarves would agree with that

They have gryphons