Lets fix Survival for PvP

[Deleted]

The only major problem with the spec atm is it doesn't live up to its name ironically. You have almost zero survivability vs other melee. Don't get me wrong survi has plenty of slows and roots, two freedoms if specced and quite a few ranged attacks. The problem arises when you want to dump your damage into a melee opponent. You need to get bleed rolling, dragonsfire trap, drop a explosive trap which deals a fuckton of damage and put crows cawing. After that you "need" to start pumping mongoose strikes into the opponent until 6 stacks to use your artifact to its full power. Setup alone was 4 globals and actual bursting takes 7.

That is a very long time spent getting hit in the face yourself when your only defensive ( if you want to do damage ) is roar of sacrifice and 1.5sec feign death damage reduction. Having to aspect of the turtle mid bursting is god-awful cause mongoose stacks will fall and you lose all your damage plus your turtleform doesn't even heal you like Bm's or Mm's. Exhil heal is laughable 30% on a 2 min cd, rogues have a similar heal with 30sec cd with same amount restored over 6 seconds i believe. Most ( if not all ) other melee have either flatout xx % damage reduction shield wall or parry/evasion cooldown to let them go apeshit during their burst.

So how to address this. Imo aspect of the turtle "full immunity" ( if you got dotted by a rogue or feral you are done anyways ) & cant attack makes very little sense for a melee spec. It should be changed to flat our parry or evasion from frontal attacks or flat out shield wall. Other thing that came to mind was baking in some sort of damage reduction into your mongoose stacks. "enemy hit by your mongoose bite deals xx% less damage stacks x times."

They could also totaly fix survival tactics which makes your feign death clear magical effects and reduces damage taken by 99% for 1.5 seconds. For your average baddie it pretty much takes 1.5 seconds to re-target you so the reduction seems rather meh for anything but dodging massive damage spikes. I would prefer it to be 30-50% if it lasted 3-5 seconds. Also its about time they remove the stupid "have to be standing still" for feign death to even go off.

Reworking roar of sacrifice could work also. Rather than making you crit immune you would be immune to taking more than 100k damage on a single hit for the duration.

tl;dr: Survival cant survive, feelsblizzardman.

[natpick]

totally agree dude but mm dont feel any better imo,im leaving hunters this time and leveling something,anything else.btw 50 views and no repllies just sums hunters up,well written post anyway dude.

[Soisoisoi]

That is a very long time spent getting hit in the face yourself when your only defensive ( if you want to do damage ) is roar of sacrifice

Only defensive? Are you joking? o.O Since we are obviously talking about Duels here (you'd have a healer, otherwise)...

• You have Aspect of the Turtle (AKA Deterrence; deflect everything + 30% DR during) on 2.4m CD. Can still cancel early to keep your DPS going.
• You have a 30% heal on a 2min CD
• You have RoSac that makes you crit immune for 12seconds on a 1min CD.

Note: Everything above is what you have on live; below is what you're gaining in addition for Legion.

• You either have a 30 sec CD that removes all magic DoTs and gives you a 99% DR for 1.5s, 30% passive dodge, or 20% DR to magic DoTs.
• You have a sting that can stop a cast/silence them for 4sec, or reduce their crit by 50% for 6 seconds... permanently.
• You have a 36% HP bandage every 25 seconds that also removes poisons/diseases.
• Your Sticky trap reduces their attack speed by 50%, or your Tracker's net reduces their chance to hit by 80% for their durations

This is not including the roots/freedoms etc. that Hunters have to get away from other melee. I wouldn't exactly call that lacking Survival.

tl;dr: I'm not using half my abilities, feelsblizzardman.

Fixed, I guess.

I mean, if you really think you have it bad... compare it to other melee, say, an Arms Warrior:

• Commanding Shout: +15% Max HP for 10 seconds, 3min CD.
• Die by the Sword: 100% Parry, 30% DR, 8 seconds, 3min CD. Like Deterrence except you can attack, and it's only parry from the front not 360*.
• Spell Reflect, 1 spell, 3 sec duration, 25sec CD.
• Second Wind, 7% hp/sec IF you haven't taken damage in 5 sec. AKA never, OR Defensive Stance. 20% DR, -10% damage done.
• Victory Rush: +30% heal if you kill someone

Or... An Assassination Rogue:

• Feint, spammable 30% DR, lasts 5 sec, 20 energy easily counterable - 10% Leech if you want to give up a poison - or Cheat Death.
• Cloak of Shadows, removes magic spells/DoTs and makes you resist for 5 seconds, 1.5m CD
• Crimson Vial, 30% HP over 6 sec, 30 energy, 30sec CD
• Evasion, 100% Dodge for 10 sec, 2min CD.
• Vanish, not really defensive in the literal sense but you can avoid people assuming you have no DoTs/AoE near you.

Or... a Ret Pally:

• Divine Shield, 8 sec immunity, can be dispelled, 5min CD.
• BoP, 10sec physical attacks only immunity, dispellable, 3.5min CD
• Flash of Light, ~12% hp, can be cast about 4-5 times until OOM.
• Shield of Vengeance, 15 sec, 1.5min CD, ~30% hp absorb, dispellable.
• Eye for an Eye, 35% Physical DR for 10sec, 1min CD. Or WoG, 3HP, 1min CD, about 12% hp.

I don't think I really need to say much more. SV looks quite alright in terms of defensives from what I can see. Could it be improved? Sure, most classes could. That doesn't mean you can't survive with what you have right now though.

[Deleted]

You have Aspect of the Turtle (AKA Deterrence; deflect everything + 30% DR during) on 2.4m CD. Can still cancel early to keep your DPS going.

Mongoose bite buff doesn't refresh if you cancel it and try to keep going, thus most likely going to drop the buff before you get your artifact burst off. Also it used to have 2 charges which is yet another slap to hunters face.

You have a 30% heal on a 2min CD

2 minute cooldown to heal 30% is a massive joke.

You have RoSac that makes you crit immune for 12seconds on a 1min CD.

Our only "real" defensive which still lets us take fuckton of uncritted damage.

You either have a 30 sec CD that removes all magic DoTs and gives you a 99% DR for 1.5s, 30% passive dodge, or 20% DR to magic DoTs.

Survival tactics main use is to clear magical debuffs and maybe get lucky and soak a massive burst. 20% reduction to dots is yet another lazy design that doesn't help us vs melee at all. 30% dodge is far from reliable defensive.

You have a sting that can stop a cast/silence them for 4sec, or reduce their crit by 50% for 6 seconds... permanently.

As if 100% from roar of sac wasn't enough lets reduce it further by 50%. If crits are still only 1.5 times damage on beta taking away someones 15% chance to deal 1.5times damage is rather meh. Why would you take this if you want the enemy to crit you to give you the massive 30% dodge chance.

You have a 36% HP bandage every 25 seconds that also removes poisons/diseases.

canceled on any damage taken

Your Sticky trap reduces their attack speed by 50%, or your Tracker's net reduces their chance to hit by 80% for their duration.

Too bad this isn't a moba where autoattacks actually do respective amount of damage, lowering somebodys attack speed in wow is less than a 5% reduction in damage. Also it takes them 3 seconds to stand in the tar for this to even work. Net breaks on any damage taken thus instantly breaking if you try to use it on somebody you attacked in the last 12 seconds due to lacerate bleed.


Also all the classes you listed above have far better tools to deal with prolonged melee. But if you think survival is in a sweet spot, go try it out on beta.

[Soisoisoi]

Mongoose bite buff doesn't refresh if you cancel it and try to keep going, thus most likely going to drop the buff before you get your artifact burst off. Also it used to have 2 charges which is yet another slap to hunters face.

That's why you only use AotT briefly to stop burst and not just leaving it up for the whole duration, alternatively, don't waste Mongoose Bite/FotE when you will need to use defensives. Is some Warrior smashing you in the face with Recklessness up? Tracker's net, Freezing Trap, Tar Trap - if you somehow aren't still away, then you can Sac yourself. If they have Avatar, then you can AotT after as well. After that they have nothing, you can nuke them. Well played you used utility to counter someone. He wins? Oh well, suck it up - it's a duel, get a healer and do some Arenas or something instead of complaining about lack of perfect balance.

2 minute cooldown to heal 30% is a massive joke.
Our only "real" defensive which still lets us take fuckton of uncritted damage.

You shouldn't be wanting to tank everything, why are you even thinking like you should be able to survive someone nuking you without using defensives or utility to get away? You think any other class can do that? No of course they can't, why would a SV Hunter be any different.

Survival tactics main use is to clear magical debuffs and maybe get lucky and soak a massive burst. 20% reduction to dots is yet another lazy design that doesn't help us vs melee at all. 30% dodge is far from reliable defensive.

Lazy design doesn't mean it isn't in the game and you shouldn't be using it. It's still there, so you can use it. It is also pretty damn good vs a DK, reducing a large part of their overall damage by 20%, what's not to like? It's a situational talent choice. Pick what works for what you are doing.

As if 100% from roar of sac wasn't enough lets reduce it further by 50%. If crits are still only 1.5 times damage on beta taking away someones 15% chance to deal 1.5times damage is rather meh. Why would you take this if you want the enemy to crit you to give you the massive 30% dodge chance.

Fun fact, different classes have different crit chances, even SV Hunter has more than 20% crit. If someone is bursting you with CDs up, especially some form of Crit cooldown - say, Recklessness - that's a lot of damage reduction.

canceled on any damage taken

So use it after Feign Death or when they can't hit you, such as during a trap or root. Even a couple of ticks is a lot to say it has such a short cooldown.

Too bad this isn't a moba where autoattacks actually do respective amount of damage, lowering somebodys attack speed in wow is less than a 5% reduction in damage. Also it takes them 3 seconds to stand in the tar for this to even work. Net breaks on any damage taken thus instantly breaking if you try to use it on somebody you attacked in the last 12 seconds due to lacerate bleed.

So, like I said above, it's a choice - don't go for the attack speed one, go for the hit chance. If they can't hit you with 80% of their attacks then they aren't doing much damage.

Also all the classes you listed above have far better tools to deal with prolonged melee. But if you think survival is in a sweet spot, go try it out on beta.

Honestly, to me, it looks like it's you who hasn't tried it out on Beta. Either that, or you just don't want to use your utility as you should be doing. You can't just expect to be able to tank someone bursting you. Feel free to point out how any of those classes have far better tools to deal with prolonged melee though, considering SV has the most escape tools and defensives out of all of them.

[Deleted]

Most of your points seem to be about kiting and whatnot. Eventually you need to get up close and personal for a very long time to do any significant damage. Setup is 4 globals and bursting is 7. All other melee in this game have a stun and a cooldown that allows them to take near zero damage from a melee opponent whilts returning fire. Aspect of the turtle just needs to be a straight up copy of DbTS. Sv has plenty of mobility and a good damage but WW monk does almost everything better than we do.

Sustain:
- WW monk heal is 15%hp 2charges and i think 30sec cd? It also auto activates if they fall below certain % hp. Their karma also heals them if someone is stupid enough to hit into it. They have castable heal and can talent into few more heals.
- SV heal is 30%hp 2 min cd.
Cc:
- WW monk has few snares and a root.
- Sv has a few snares and thousand roots.

- WW monk has 2 stuns and a incapacitate.
- Sv has 0 stuns and a incapacitate. Ranged silence.
Damage:
- WW monks burst window is ~6 seconds long whilst the target is perma stunned.
- Sv burst window is about 15 seconds long.
Defensives:
- WW monks have karma to stop all damage ( up to 50% of monks hp ) which allows them to still do full damage. They also have a fortifying elixir for 20% extra hp and 20% damage reduction.
- Sv has AotT to stop all damage cant do damage. Roar of sacrifice to give crit immunity. Surival tactics to drop magic effects and 1.5sec 99% damage reduction. Also enemies have 50% reduced crit chance. Not gonna mention the trackers net cause you cant use it on your prio target due to it insta breaking from your bleed.
Mobility:
- WW monks have 2 snare removals, 1 snare&root removal, 2 gap closers flying serpent kicks, passive increased movement speed. Sprint with a 30sec cooldown.
- Sv has 2 snare&root removals one of them being their gap closer. Sprint with a year cooldown.

tl;dr: Sv is a poor mans monk with a pet and poor talents ( all of them artifact,pvp and basic ) with a 1 year ramp up time. Few things Sv has going for it we get to use cool 2handed transmogs and we reck frost mages.

Sv is just a hastily made mess with too many snares and roots. It was so hastily made that even the pvp talents at row 2 for sv are still the ranged options with haste, increased damage if you havent takent damage and higher crit chance on targets above certain hp unlike EVERY other melee in the game.

[c000]

they should bring back some kind of variant of counterattack. One of the keystones from survival's vanilla tree back in the day
I miss deterrence+counterattack

[Soisoisoi]

Most of your points seem to be about kiting and whatnot. Eventually you need to get up close and personal for a very long time to do any significant damage. Setup is 4 globals and bursting is 7. All other melee in this game have a stun and a cooldown that allows them to take near zero damage from a melee opponent whilts returning fire. Aspect of the turtle just needs to be a straight up copy of DbTS. Sv has plenty of mobility and a good damage but WW monk does almost everything better than we do.

If you want DbtS that's fine, you can enjoy me simply Shadowstep Kidney Shotting you and completely nullifying your defensive. They each have pros and cons. You sure you want that one? You're likely having to waste your trinket at this point as well with DbtS. Lets go over this all again though because you like to cherry-pick your points...

Note: Just added my replies in italics & bold. Much easier than quoting and taking up a page of space.

Sustain:
- WW monk heal Assuming you talent into it and not the amazing anti-caster talent* is 15%hp 2charges and i think 30sec cd? It also auto activates if they fall below certain % hp. Their karma also heals them if someone is stupid enough to hit into it. They have castable heal and can talent into few more heals.

- SV heal is 30%hp 2 min cd.
and a 36% heal over 6 seconds with talent. Freeze[talented]>Bandage.
Cc:
- WW monk has few snares and a root.
- Sv has a few snares and thousand roots.
- WW monk has 2 stuns and a incapacitate.
- Sv has 0 stuns and a incapacitate. Ranged silence.
- FiMage has DB and Polymorph
- Warrior has Stormbolt and Fear
- Different classes different CCs; makes PvP with other people better.
Damage:
- WW monks burst window is ~6 seconds long whilst the target is perma stunned.
More like 12-14 GCDs including setup if you actually want to burst properly
- Sv burst window is about 15 seconds long.
or.. 3 seconds long "burst window" for SV using your cherry-picked logic..
Defensives:
- WW monks have karma to stop all damage ( up to 50% of monks hp ) which allows them to still do full damage. They also have a fortifying elixir for 20% extra hp and 20% damage reduction.
- Sv has AotT to stop all damage cant do damage. Roar of sacrifice to give crit immunity. Surival tactics to drop magic effects and 1.5sec 99% damage reduction. Also enemies have 50% reduced crit chance. Not gonna mention the trackers net cause you cant use it on your prio target due to it insta breaking from your bleed.
So you have two completely different types of defensive CDs, one [hint: Karma] can be DPSd through and ignored with a dispel from say, a talented Feign Death, the other can't.
Mobility:
- WW monks have 2 snare removals, 1 snare&root removal, 2 gap closers flying serpent kicks, passive increased movement speed. Sprint with a 30sec cooldown.
- Sv has 2 snare&root removals one of them being their gap closer. Sprint with a year cooldown.


tl;dr: Sv is a poor mans monk with a pet and poor talents ( all of them artifact,pvp and basic ) with a 1 year ramp up time. Few things Sv has going for it we get to use cool 2handed transmogs and we reck frost mages. Monks are the intended high mobility class, SV are a trap/bleed/root spec; you're basically opposites.

Sv is just a hastily made mess with too many snares and roots. It was so hastily made that even the pvp talents at row 2 for sv are still the ranged options with haste, increased damage if you havent takent damage and higher crit chance on targets above certain hp unlike EVERY other melee in the game.

Listen, I am happy to discuss what could be improved but when you make your replies so, again, cherry-picked - especially when you're looking at duels as your balance perspective... This just isn't going to work. I mean come on, WW has 6 second burst window, what you think Leg Sweep and FoF is all there is to it? Well guess what, if you're using that logic - all you do is cast Fury of the Eagle, that's 3 seconds. We can all play at that game. If you want to do it properly, it's a different story.

[Better]

SV has the most escape tools and defensives out of all of them.

You say that like having 500 different slows is somehow better than having 1 slow that's auto applied somehow. It doesn't matter how many slows we have, they don't stack, and if we take Master's call to actually break ourselves out of the slow everybody has on you anyway we can't have the healing bandage to do anything when we're out of range anyway. Our sprint is laughably terrible, so that only really leaves a super gimmicky escape that doesn't work through bleeds by taking survival tactics, and camo, and praying they don't AoE, and the game registers you as out of combat fast enough to actually pull it off.

[Pandragon]

It's not just survival. Hunter in general is crap. Your damage is horrible, and you die if anyone even notices you are there. It's going to be a long and painful grind getting the Vindictive set for my hunter for transmog.

[Deleted]

Feel free to point out how any of those classes have far better tools

Monk beats sv in everything put the sheer amount of traps & snares which the lazy devs were just throwing out like candy.

If you want DbtS that's fine, you can enjoy me simply Shadowstep Kidney Shotting you and completely nullifying your defensive. They each have pros and cons. You sure you want that one? You're likely having to waste your trinket at this point as well with DbtS.

Orc doesn't care about your 45% reduced stun durations.

and a 36% heal over 6 seconds with talent. Freeze[talented]>Bandage.

You give up your freedom for a heal that will never work in a arena enviroment.

Different classes different CCs; makes PvP with other people better.

Every other melee has a stun or a talent for it.

Also reading rest of your points im pretty sure you are just trolling at this point.

[Soisoisoi]

You say that like having 500 different slows is somehow better than having 1 slow that's auto applied somehow. It doesn't matter how many slows we have, they don't stack, and if we take Master's call to actually break ourselves out of the slow everybody has on you anyway we can't have the healing bandage to do anything when we're out of range anyway. Our sprint is laughably terrible, so that only really leaves a super gimmicky escape that doesn't work through bleeds by taking survival tactics, and camo, and praying they don't AoE, and the game registers you as out of combat fast enough to actually pull it off.

I never said anything to do with 500 slows, nor that they are better. If you notice, I actually ignored the slows entirely other than saying different classes have different CC. With that said, Monk slows come from their Disable ability which is an ability that has to be manually used [not auto applied], unlike some other classes (e.g. Crippling Poison, Rake), which on their second use Roots the target. They also have a slow from landing on the target with Flying Serpent Kick and hitting them with their Artifact Ability - a mobility cooldown and 45 second CD damage ability.

If you are playing vs a Melee you won't really need Master's Call unless they are going to be kiting you (so: Ret, WW, Assassination?). Spec depending on what you are fighting, just like every other class has to. You think that Monk is going to be taking a 15% heal instead of a 60% magic damage reduction and self dispel if he's fighting vs a Caster?

Monk beats sv in everything put the sheer amount of traps & snares which the lazy devs were just throwing out like candy.
Like I said, different classes have different abilities. Do you seriously just want stuns? You'll never be doing an arena with a Monk if you do.

Orc doesn't care about your 45% reduced stun durations.
Not everyone plays Orc, not exactly a valid point in a discussion about a spec.

You give up your freedom for a heal that will never work in a arena enviroment.
Sure, but then you actually have a healer. Pick and choose, are you talking about duels or arena here? Like I said above, if you have the same CC as your team mates you'll just be overlapping with DR and it won't work well. If you can freeze after their stun - with a "cyclone" style ability no less to stop the healing after burst, that's a lot better and opens up more comps for you. I'd love my Blind to stop all healing on a target after burst.

Every other melee has a stun or a talent for it.
Enhancement Shamans don't, unless you actually count the Totem you can run out of or kill? I'll give you that though, it would be okay to have the option for it, probably swap out Sticky Tar [PvP talent].

Also reading rest of your points im pretty sure you are just trolling at this point.
Not trolling at all, I'm being serious. If you can't see that different classes are [gasp] different, and that you DO in fact have tools to use but refuse to use them, that's your own problem. Report me to a moderator if you think I am trolling and let them decide.

[Better]

I never said anything to do with 500 slows, nor that they are better. If you notice, I actually ignored the slows entirely other than saying different classes have different CC. With that said, Monk slows come from their Disable ability which is an ability that has to be manually used [not auto applied], unlike some other classes (e.g. Crippling Poison, Rake), which on their second use Roots the target. They also have a slow from landing on the target with Flying Serpent Kick and hitting them with their Artifact Ability - a mobility cooldown and 45 second CD damage ability.

If you are playing vs a Melee you won't really need Master's Call unless they are going to be kiting you (so: Ret, WW, Assassination?). Spec depending on what you are fighting, just like every other class has to. You think that Monk is going to be taking a 15% heal instead of a 60% magic damage reduction and self dispel if he's fighting vs a Caster?

except what I quoted was you saying SV hunters somehow had great escapes. Which is just flat out not true, they have next to no escapes when compared to every other melee spec in the entire game

[Bepples]

They could start by making it ranged again.

[BannedForViews]

I'll be honest. I hate hunters. Always have, probably always will. They are uninterruptable casters. Their pet has always been stronger, and the class mind numbingly easy to play, so i dont feel bad for hunters. I am sorry though thst people who enjoy the class for whatever reason may have to pick something different to be successful. I xan see it now though. Hunters will get a buff that once again makes the skill cap for success extremely low ajd perpetuates my hate for them. Gl to you all.