BREAKING: Military coup in Turkey in progress! Tanks on the street, police disarmed.

[ControlWarrior]

Just seems like coup was very... um, I guess dumb would be the best terms to put it as.

They greatly overestimated the support of the people. The people just weren't having it.

[Tempguy]

Democratic elections in no way shape or form give any government or elected official unlimited legitimacy.

In the US, the Military is loyal to the constitution. Not the people. Not the state. Not Congress. The President is in the chain of command (at the top), but their allegiance is to the most fundamental law of the country, and their oath is against all enemies, foreign AND domestic.

Turkey's historically is similar.

Can confirm. It is tough to do, but every soldier is told they are legally required to disobey an unlawful order.

It's hard cause you are stuck. It would be dangerous for you to be the only one going against the grain. Especially in a situation where the chain of command is in control of your life. Meaning... "Oh, you don't want to kill those kids? Well I'm gonna post you on guard out in the boonies by yourself" good luck.

Hopefully you'll have support though. It's a strange system, and in great need of an outside force to report to. If your captain is evil, good luck reaching your battalion commander. And if he is evil too, you'll probably see your brigade command once in a year if your are lucky. And good luck getting close enough to have them hear you out.

[Nachturnal]

They greatly overestimated the support of the people. The people just weren't having it.

That and their tactics.

[Deleted]

'Always better'? I don't think it's that black and white. When Egypt had the elected government close to the Muslim Brotherhood, christians were killed without prejudice, women raped, journalists threatened and killed, terrorists supported in neighboring countries.

In Egypt the military were always in control. They stoked tensions and cut off supplies of cash/water/petrol etc. Essentially life is a nightmare without them tactic. The big problem with the arab spring was that there were no political parties or real infrastructure in place to run the country in a proper manner. It didnt help that the muslim brotherhood were clueless and power hungry. Nasty stuff...

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That and their tactics.

It's so strange seeing what has happened.

[volkanik]

Glad to see democracy prevailed.

[Khadgar]

Has any footage of the rogue F-16's being shot out of the sky come out yet?

[ControlWarrior]

Has any footage of the rogue F-16's being shot out of the sky come out yet?

Holy crap, I knew I missed some excitement.

[Skroe]

I am not sure why certain people (mainly outside Turkey )supported the coup? Its always better supporting democracies than another dictator. Turkey in the long run should be better. All the parties including the Opposition, Kurdish etc. did not support a coup. The pendulum will swing away from Erdogan at some point. As is natural in politics.

We've been waiting for that pendulum to swing since 2002. It's 2016.

The rules have changed. Dictators and would be illberal authoritarian figures have gotten smart. They've combined Western Capitalism with Western Style Media, perpetual campaigning and data operations, along with the "Hugo Chavez" model of rewriting the constitution, to perpetuate themselves in power on the back of a disorganized opposition, a ruling clique of wealthy figures controlling state industries and a populace fed up with the status quo, whatever that is. We're even seeing the seeds of it in America with Donald Trump in a sense. Illiberal Democracy is on the march, and liberal democracy has yet to achieve a victory or mount a coherent defense against it.

Erdogan, like Putin, will be in power until he dies because the opposition lacks the organization or resources to depose him.

The US stood to gain little and lose little no matter who won. Turkey has been marginally helpful in Syria. And they will continue to be marginally helpful. If the coup succeeded, the military would have had to spend most of it's resources consolidating power, not fighting ISIS. Since the coup has evidently failed, Erdogan will now purge the military, again, weaking its ability to fight ISIS (not that they were doing much of that to begin with).

It comes down to the fact that Erdogan, personally, is an irritant to the Western Order of things. He's an illiberal, islamist authoritarian figure who just happens to be at the head of a vital NATO ally found in a strategically important location. It would have been better for everyone, somewhat, to see him gone. Him sticking around changes little, but it is another defeat for liberal democracy by illiberalism as he will now emerge from this strengthened, and will use it to further undermine Turkish democracy.

[Theodarzna]

Has secularism failed to conquer Turkey?

That's upsetting.

The cycle of coups it appears is at its end.

[Skroe]

The cycle of coups it appears is at its end.

Previous Turkish coups were launched by the entirety of the military.

This looks like it was launched by maybe about 1000 people led by one Colonel. In other words epically premature.

[Deleted]

We've been waiting for that pendulum to swing since 2002. It's 2016.

The rules have changed. Dictators and would be illberal authoritarian figures have gotten smart. They've combined Western Capitalism with Western Style Media, perpetual campaigning and data operations, along with the "Hugo Chavez" model of rewriting the constitution, to perpetuate themselves in power on the back of a disorganized opposition and a populace fed up with the status quo, whatever that is. We're even seeing it in America with Donald Trump in a sense.

Erdogan, like Putin, will be in power until he dies because the opposition lacks the organization or resources to depose him.

The US stood to gain little and lose little no matter who won. Turkey has been marginally helpful in Syria. And they will continue to be marginally helpful. If the coup succeeded, the military would have had to spend most of it's resources consolidating power, not fighting ISIS. Since the coup has evidently failed, Erdogan will now purge the military, again, weaking its ability to fight ISIS (not that they were doing much of that to begin with).

It comes down to the fact that Erdogan, personally, is an irritant to the Western Order of things. He's an illiberal, islamist authoritarian figure who just happens to be at the head of a vital NATO ally found in a strategically important location. It would have been better for everyone, somewhat, to see him gone. Him sticking around changes little, but it is another defeat for liberal democracy by illiberalism as he will now emerge from this strengthened, and will use it to further undermine Turkish democracy.

I think long run its best less mess is created. The current crop of middle eastern dictators have made an indescribable amount of mess. Its worse when people of a country detest their leader that religious groups spring up as political discourse is blocked.

Turkey actually seems alright in its future. Democracy is the way to go. Take it from some one in the UK post Brexit. There is a right wing swing worldwide so no surprise Erdogan exists. It doesnt sound like the coup plotters are any better though : http://uk.businessinsider.com/turkey...bridges-2016-7

[Theodarzna]

Previous Turkish coups were launched by the entirety of the military.

This looks like it was launched by maybe about 1000 people led by one Colonel. In other words epically premature.

Won't Edrogan use this as a convenient time to purge the Turkish army, making it rather shitty but theoretically loyal?

[Crispin]

What a shame, politicians truly are the scum of the earth ><

[Khadgar]

This looks like it was launched by maybe about 1000 people led by one Colonel. In other words epically premature.

This must be the look on the Colonel's face rn

[Teaon]

the people took down the coup, that is a good feat for the turkish people, they defended what is theirs, the democracy.

[Deleted]

True. So true. Lots of clown politicians nowadays.

[Sunseeker]

I am not sure why certain people (mainly outside Turkey )supported the coup? Its always better supporting democracies than another dictator. Turkey in the long run should be better. All the parties including the Opposition, Kurdish etc. did not support a coup. The pendulum will swing away from Erdogan at some point. As is natural in politics.

If Erdogan's vision for Turkey even remotely resembled a tolerant, free society with a healthy democracy, I would agree with you. Since it doesn't, I don't.

Besides that, it's factually not always better to support a democratically elected leader, particularly when the military has historically done a pretty good job of running Turkey. Almost all of their progress towards an open, free, democratic society was made under military rule.

But, as Skroe fairly points out, the world and the related powers-that-be would stand to gain little and also stand to lose little from a successful coup.

The only thing this is really going to accomplish is delaying Turkey's entry into the EU even further, though a lot of that will depend on Erdogan's immediate response to the situation. If as he likely will, Erdogan purges the military, locks down on social freedoms and generally makes his country less free and less democratic, we'll see more EU blackmail and Turkey becoming nigh unlikely to ever enter the EU. I'm not really sure what alternatives Erdogan will take aside from that, since the military purge is a given, but a lot of unemployed, potentially imprisoned people with guns and the knowhow to use them is never good for a nation.

As with most dictators, the more they attempt to hold on to power, the more they lose it. Though I honestly think his fanatics scare me more than anything Erdogan himself could do, I'm concerned that with a substantially weakened military and a rise in Erdogran-loving fanatacism we'll see nothing more than an increase in violence across the country, which of course isn't going to be of any benefit to Erdogan (or the West) attempting to hold on to power, since eventually fanatics figure out that everyone short of God is killable and they should be in charge instead of whoever is currently leading them. Especially once the economy takes a shit since noone likes to visit or invest in unstable countries.

[Mavett]

Suppressed for the most part in Istanbul, but still ongoing in other places (Ankara, Besiktas, Kadikoy)

[Deleted]

As with most dictators, the more they attempt to hold on to power, the more they lose it. Though I honestly think his fanatics scare me more than anything Erdogan himself could do, I'm concerned that with a substantially weakened military and a rise in Erdogran-loving fanatacism we'll see nothing more than an increase in violence across the country, which of course isn't going to be of any benefit to Erdogan (or the West) attempting to hold on to power, since eventually fanatics figure out that everyone short of God is killable and they should be in charge instead of whoever is currently leading them. Especially once the economy takes a shit since noone likes to visit or invest in unstable countries.

Exactly. Despite the monster Erdogan is becoming, the risk is not him at all. It is the huge number of fanatics, almost always religiously inspired, who back him.

It is these very same people who show how Turkey will never ever join the EU or the West. What a hopeless situation the Middle East is... :/

[Deleted]

If Erdogan's vision for Turkey even remotely resembled a tolerant, free society with a healthy democracy, I would agree with you. Since it doesn't, I don't.

Besides that, it's factually not always better to support a democratically elected leader, particularly when the military has historically done a pretty good job of running Turkey. Almost all of their progress towards an open, free, democratic society was made under military rule.

None of that sounds grounded in reality. It's a democracy like it or not. You know what is worse than Erdogan? Military rule. A poorer, less tolerant, angry, less functional society is somehow better? No country wants to be like the middle east.

http://www.economist.com/http%3A/%25...rs-turkey-have

That is where these military coup bunch went wrong. People went out in the streets despite the danger.