BREAKING: Military coup in Turkey in progress! Tanks on the street, police disarmed.

[Skroe]

But what if I think global politics is actually a video game and I 360 no scope them and spawn camp them until they rage quit?

Have you seen the Russian threads? Ulmita is convinced that we live in a real life version of Missile Command. The guy pairs his morning fap with nuke talk.

[Slant]

I`m more concerned about the future.

If the latest news are correct, there were 6 coup F-16s and 4 KC-135s that supported them plus some helicopters. We still have no idea what happened to them.

Now imagine it`s 2020 - Turkey owns a handful (maybe two dozen) of F-35s. All with Block 4 software. Another coup happens and pilots are thinking of seeking asylum in Russia or Iran.

Or just smuggling parts of it for asylum. Or just outright be bought by Iranians, Russians or China which is desperate to get their hands on the F-35.

We know that at least one helicopter made it to Greece and requested political asylum. Russia is not the logical step to seek asylum in. It's politically just as unstable as Erdogan what with Putin being pathologically mental. If someone opposes Erdogan based on his power grab, you can assume he's not going to the next dictator to ask for help.

[Skroe]

I`m more concerned about the future.

If the latest news are correct, there were 6 coup F-16s and 4 KC-135s that supported them plus some helicopters. We still have no idea what happened to them.

Now imagine it`s 2020 - Turkey owns a handful (maybe two dozen) of F-35s. All with Block 4 software. Another coup happens and pilots are thinking of seeking asylum in Russia or Iran.

Or just smuggling parts of it for asylum. Or just outright be bought by Iranians, Russians or China which is desperate to get their hands on the F-35.

I wouldn't be. There is some stuff you're not considering.

Why didn't we export the F-22? We exported the F-15 to countries that could afford such a tremendously expensive (for the time) piece of military hardware to own (keep in mind, you pay for 2 engines + spares, per F-15, compared to 1 for F-16s, which is why the F-16 sold more). So why not it's follow up? Because the Ada based software that makes the F-22 what it is is a poorly documented, tremendously byzantine piece of garbage that 20 years later, is still having security holes plugged. Exporting it, aside from concerns (now passed) about exporting stealth technology, was largely based around exporting computer systems that would never be secure. In fact, if the F-22 is restarted, chances are an F-22C with F-35 computers inside is more likely than a restart of the F-22A from 2011, just because of the obsolence of it's computers.

The F-35 program is designed, from the ground up, to right this wrong, because export was made with it in mind from the get go. There are three tiers of F-35 partners. Of the three, only the US and UK have access to the F-35 source code. Every other country in the world, including Turkey, has access to the API they built around the F-35, but not the operating systems of it.

This reflects the whole approach of the F-35: everyone gets an advanced fighter/attack jet, and through the API they can make plug and play apps and modules (like say, support for a Turkish sensor system on a pylon, or support for a Japanese missile), but they can't modify the jet. Even from a hardware perspective, a huge amount of the F-35's technical difficulties have been around a centralized, global network that tracks F-35 fighter status, maintenance history, maintenance needs and manages parts logistics. Partners can access this and do routine repairs. But unlike the F-16, the big stuff can only be done in two paces, the Lockheed Plant in Fort Worth Texas, and at the F-35 plant in Italy. Turkey, like everybody else, will be able to do routine maintenance on the F-35, but the big overhauls, it will have to fly them to Italy. The countries buying can fly it, and to a point fix it. But they have zero clue as to how it works. Only the US and UK get that information. That facility in Italy building the F-35? Yeah. Mostly staffed by Americans and British, not Italians.

This controls knowledge of the inner workings of the F-35, and resolves the issues regarding why the F-22 wasn't exported.


Furthermore F-35 tech is at the level that the country feels it can produce it in large numbers, with losses. Russia and China have been getting samples of destroyed US hardware in Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan and Libya for years. In Pakistan they took samples of the stealth helicopter. In iran the RQ-170 Sentinel drone. Elsewhere it's been Reaper drones, tanks, armored vehicles, networking equipment. It's all out there

We shouldn't be too concerned about that. Those aren't the crown jewels. Consider this, China, for example, has been a voracious consumer of Western technology and demands that any western country seeking to do business there engage in technology transfers. This has not helped China. They have tried, and failed to produce a domestic rival to western CPU and computer technology. More importantly, engine tech. GE gives them a how to manual how to build the CFM56 used on the 737, A320, A340 and the basis of many, many other engines (it's the most numerous engine in the world). They can't build their own. They've tried, for decades. They just can't do it. China's 737 rival,the COMAC C919 (cute China, real cute... do you guys have one original thought in your heads?) will be using the CFM56 successor, the CFM Leap, produced by GE in the US.

Having samples of tech doesn't give, without huge capital investment, the ability for a country to clone it. It's too sophisticated now. This goes the other way. COnsider for example, the RD-180 engines used on the US Atlas V. The RD-180 was created by a join US-Russian team in the early 1990s as a modification of the Soviet engines used on Energia. The US needed a new engine for Atlas V, but also didn't want Russian rocket scientists, now looking for work, to find themselves poached by Iran, Iraq, North Korea, China, Libya, Syria or Cuba. So it came up with a way to keep them employed - the US would give money and give a team, and they'd keep the Russian rocket engine factory going, event though the rest of the country was on a breadline. Well the US has the schematics to build the RD-180. Has for years. And it was supposed to start domestic production of it in the early and mid 2000s, but held off. Fact is, to produce a 25 year old engine that we know EXACTLY how it works, would require about 5 years and a $1 billion investment, at least, on the part of the manufacturer (probably Aerojet or Orbital ATK) to research the design, especially the metalurgy, and build the factory, then build prototypes and test them. And that's a foreign engine that has flown 100 times for the US on a US rocket out of Cape Canaveral and elsewhere, and we know very, very well.

A few F-35s flying to Russia one day or the inevitability one one crashing and Russia getting a sample (like the F-117 in Serbia) won't change anything at all. Because the best stuff, the game changing stuff, like what will be in the B-21 or next generation spy satellite network or something of that nature, won't be in foreign hands.

[Synadrasa]

Yeah Hand over Cleric or we will take your Nukes at Incirlik Air Base.

"Checkmate"

"demands" LMFAO

Turkey is an absolute fucking mess right now and they need to get their shit together. As a Nato member they're making the rest of us look bad. They don't even have control of their own military. They have politicians jumping on desks and punching each other in the face in parliament. They're ISIS sympathisers. They complain that they're not in the EU and they're shooting down Russian jets. The dumbfucktards never learn.

[Pengekaer]

Erdogan wants Gulen.

I say we put him in a potato sack and hand him the hell over. Nothing to gain by harboring him anymore.

Fortunately, I think the US ministries have more of a spine than that. No need to act like a complete dhimmie (IMO). ;-)

OT: Something is seriously wrong with this coup. Firing 3000 judges the very next day, this must have been planned well in advance.
Let Turkey get its theocracy then. Let the world see what the sunni-muslims are really made of. I, for one, can't wait.
Btw; sorry about the seculars that are caught in Turkey (I know and acknowledge that you exist ^^). This however, has been a long time coming and was probably unavoidable anyways. To those that do not want to live in the slaughterhouse that will be future Turkey, I hope you make it out (I am genuine).
Europe needs to fortify its borders now, we cannot make any deals with this thug. 10 years ago would have been ideal, but now its fortress-time IMO.

[Theodarzna]

But what if I think global politics is actually a video game and I 360 no scope them and spawn camp them until they rage quit?

Pffftttt I am just building my vault for when the bombs fall and me and my pip-boy can found the New California Republic. S'gunna be good.

[Kreeshak]

I've missed a few pages. What is the general consensus? Should Greece grand asylum to those 8 coup soldiers with the helicopter or should they hand them over to Erdogan? Do soldiers have the "right" to ask political asylum, when they are traitors?

[zorkuus]

I've missed a few pages. What is the general consensus? Should Greece grand asylum to those 8 coup soldiers with the helicopter or should they hand them over to Erdogan? Do soldiers have the "right" to ask political asylum, when they are traitors?

They're only soldiers, so likely just following orders from the higher ups who abandoned them. If they're not some crazy islamists then yes they should be granted asylum.

[Slant]

I've missed a few pages. What is the general consensus? Should Greece grand asylum to those 8 coup soldiers with the helicopter or should they hand them over to Erdogan? Do soldiers have the "right" to ask political asylum, when they are traitors?

Greece and Turkey are in NATO. They both fight over Cyprus. And I'm fairly certain Turkey isn't okay with military personnel being held prisoner in Greece, especially if they're considered traitors. The helicopter was sent back as soon as they could spool up those rotors again after refueling, the prisoners will be a political issue.

[Kreeshak]

Greece and Turkey are in NATO. They both fight over Cyprus. And I'm fairly certain Turkey isn't okay with military personnel being held prisoner in Greece, especially if they're considered traitors. The helicopter was sent back as soon as they could spool up those rotors again after refueling, the prisoners will be a political issue.

Of course it is a political issue. The question remains though: Do soldiers have the "right" to ask political asylum, when they are traitors?

[zorkuus]

Of course it is a political issue. The question remains though: Do soldiers have the "right" to ask political asylum, when they are traitors?

Everyone has a right to ASK. The question is what the answer will be.

[Renyo]

I've missed a few pages. What is the general consensus? Should Greece grand asylum to those 8 coup soldiers with the helicopter or should they hand them over to Erdogan? Do soldiers have the "right" to ask political asylum, when they are traitors?

Generally everyone has the right to ask for asylum. I guess if Turkey does not reintroduce the death sentence and there is no indication that they will be bodily harmed then they will probably be given back to them.

[Slant]

Of course it is a political issue. The question remains though: Do soldiers have the "right" to ask political asylum, when they are traitors?

Some say that's one of the few time you can ask for political asylum. The boundaries are rather limited on that particular type of asylum.

[Deleted]

Of course it is a political issue. The question remains though: Do soldiers have the "right" to ask political asylum, when they are traitors?

Everyone has the right to ask for anything.

It's up to Greece to decide if 8 people are worth the potential frictions between them and Turkey.

I'd hand them over.

[Shadowferal]

Greece will give them up. I'm pretty sure that the soldiers wanted to make a statement and they did when they went to the "enemy."

[Deleted]

It's up to Greece to decide if 8 people are worth the potential frictions between them and Turkey.

I'd hand them over.

Its not like Turkey is mutch loved by EU anyways these days.
Nobody cares if frictions are there between Turkey, Greece is part of the EU if they say they stay then Turkey can F. themselfs.

[Tennis]

This is one of the greatest victories for democracy any of us has ever witnessed. It really was amazing to see the people stand up for their leader.

[Ulmita]

I've missed a few pages. What is the general consensus? Should Greece grand asylum to those 8 coup soldiers with the helicopter or should they hand them over to Erdogan? Do soldiers have the "right" to ask political asylum, when they are traitors?

There is international law for that.

[zorkuus]

This is one of the greatest victories for democracy any of us has ever witnessed. It really was amazing to see the people stand up for their leader.

You are 100% troll.

Infract me.

Infracted - Don't post just to call another poster a troll

[Tennis]

You are 100% troll.

Infract me.

Military coup that overthrows a democratically elected government is a dark day for democracy. I'm glad that this didn't happen to Turkey and even worse, cause a possible civil war.