[SURVIVAL]Legion Alpha Discussion

[Eapoe]

Both Freezing (Steel) and Tar Trap (Caltrops) are being thrown (40yds range) in Legion, only Explosive trap is placed automatically in melee. There are also several other abilities which have 40yds range as Survival, making them somewhat effective when needing to kill adds from far away. Abilities like: Spitting Cobra, Dragonsfire Grenade, Throwing Axes, A Murder of Crows and maybe some more if I missed any.



This is true and a very valid post of why the competition in melee is very high in Legion. I just don't think it will be as high as people says-

Yeah, didn't see the "throw" part, but I still have some issues with them. Do you actually target the caltrops or do they just go out randomly and you have to hope people move the adds over them? The spitting cobra thing says attack your target, but I would assume this is technically the last thing damaged and doesn't switch when you actually target anything. The throwing axes are kinda cool, but I think it's an overall loss on your single target. Also, isn't MoC's focus still too big to just toss it around for add killing without sacrificing a lot of your damage on a primary target?
Also, saw a post a while ago, but are most of the traps on the same CD? I'd assumed they made ET on its own CD, but are the slow ones all still on the same?

[Huggykaze]

Yeah, didn't see the "throw" part, but I still have some issues with them. Do you actually target the caltrops or do they just go out randomly and you have to hope people move the adds over them? The spitting cobra thing says attack your target, but I would assume this is technically the last thing damaged and doesn't switch when you actually target anything. The throwing axes are kinda cool, but I think it's an overall loss on your single target. Also, isn't MoC's focus still too big to just toss it around for add killing without sacrificing a lot of your damage on a primary target?
Also, saw a post a while ago, but are most of the traps on the same CD? I'd assumed they made ET on its own CD, but are the slow ones all still on the same?

Well, losing ST damage to have better target swapping ability, when the boss calls for it, is a gain for the raid, so nobody will cry for, quite low (1%?) dps loss :P Maybe in heroic pugs ^^

[Eapoe]

Well, losing ST damage to have better target swapping ability, when the boss calls for it, is a gain for the raid, so nobody will cry for, quite low (1%?) dps loss :P Maybe in heroic pugs ^^

Only on fights where necessary, sure. How many fights recently have you switching to a ranged target now? Can't really think of any except M Arch where you would HAVE to go off boss to kill a ranged infernal, or if your ranged dps are having issues with skeletons on Gorefiend. Either way, a guild roster is more likely to just have a ranged dps for these situations and sit a melee. Which brings us back to the point of, unless hunters bring something to the table (talent to negate a mechanic/extremely high dps), it will be hard to find a raid spot for one. If you take all those abilities that were brought up that is more than a 1% loss on boss, as well as the fact that if MoC's has that high focus cost you are losing a lot of ability usage. Just things to consider, it's easy to say 1 thing while it plays completely differently in practice.
I hope it's not the case, I raid in a mythic guild and want to play a SV Hunter, but as it stands now, there are no spots, so I have to hope there's something the spec brings over the others.

[Typhod]

Yeah, didn't see the "throw" part, but I still have some issues with them. Do you actually target the caltrops or do they just go out randomly and you have to hope people move the adds over them? The spitting cobra thing says attack your target, but I would assume this is technically the last thing damaged and doesn't switch when you actually target anything. The throwing axes are kinda cool, but I think it's an overall loss on your single target. Also, isn't MoC's focus still too big to just toss it around for add killing without sacrificing a lot of your damage on a primary target?
Also, saw a post a while ago, but are most of the traps on the same CD? I'd assumed they made ET on its own CD, but are the slow ones all still on the same?

For when a Way of the Mok'NAthal playstyle (weaving in Raptor Strikes to keep an AP buff) isnt suitable, then throwing axes is the best dps gain in singletarget according to simulations. Caltrops is targeted just like Tar Trap; a circle area that lets you choose where to place them (like Rain of Fire), that way you'll see exactly the area that Caltrops/Tar trap will affect. I haven't tested the other abilities, I just mentioned them.

Freezing (Steel if talented), Tar (Caltrops if talented) and Explsive trap all have individual CDs.

[EAVBERBWF]

wew, based on some sim'ing, sv is actually way better than the other two specs, which makes me feel better about playing it

[Keltas]

wew, based on some sim'ing, sv is actually way better than the other two specs, which makes me feel better about playing it

I'm getting higher SV sims than pretty much every other spec in the game.

I'm afraid the 4PC is carrying it though. 30% uptime on a 50% damage boost, pretty much always on all our hardest hits too. Without it we'll be significantly lower.

Most fights are cleave or AoE fights now too, which we do pretty decent on, but a couple other melee have better (mostly WW monk with their insane cleave).

[Nakauri]

wew, based on some sim'ing, sv is actually way better than the other two specs, which makes me feel better about playing it

I'm getting higher SV sims than pretty much every other spec in the game.

I'm afraid the 4PC is carrying it though. 30% uptime on a 50% damage boost, pretty much always on all our hardest hits too. Without it we'll be significantly lower.

Most fights are cleave or AoE fights now too, which we do pretty decent on, but a couple other melee have better (mostly WW monk with their insane cleave).

Are you working on SV sims for pre-patch 100 or legion launch 110?
We've been discussing the Survival APL between both the SimC and AMR simulators on the TSL forums for the past week. It would be nice to have more external hunter eyes weighing in on both developments, if you have anything additional to add: https://trueshotlodge.ca/forums/inde....msg266#msg266

[Keltas]

Are you working on SV sims for pre-patch 100 or legion launch 110?
We've been discussing the Survival APL between both the SimC and AMR simulators on the TSL forums for the past week. It would be nice to have more external hunter eyes weighing in on both developments, if you have anything additional to add: https://trueshotlodge.ca/forums/inde....msg266#msg266

I've been doing 110 sims with full artifacts mostly, all on AMR. I can weigh in on what I see but I honestly haven't really messed around with it too much, other than plugging in gear and talents.

Spell priority is pretty good though, it follows almost everything I'd do in a fight.
I think I'd lacerate before AOTE (harpoon in and open with lacerate) if I either had the talent, or if trinkets didn't proc off harpoon. Lacerate is worth a bit more DPET than an average mongoose bite, and the single gcd delay shouldn't hurt the opener.
Maybe steel trap in the opener before mongoose bite spam, but that might not actually be worth it. Depends on if it snapshots the 30% damage boost or not. EDIT: It does NOT snapshot. Rip.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Only on fights where necessary, sure. How many fights recently have you switching to a ranged target now? Can't really think of any except M Arch where you would HAVE to go off boss to kill a ranged infernal, or if your ranged dps are having issues with skeletons on Gorefiend. Either way, a guild roster is more likely to just have a ranged dps for these situations and sit a melee. Which brings us back to the point of, unless hunters bring something to the table (talent to negate a mechanic/extremely high dps), it will be hard to find a raid spot for one. If you take all those abilities that were brought up that is more than a 1% loss on boss, as well as the fact that if MoC's has that high focus cost you are losing a lot of ability usage. Just things to consider, it's easy to say 1 thing while it plays completely differently in practice.
I hope it's not the case, I raid in a mythic guild and want to play a SV Hunter, but as it stands now, there are no spots, so I have to hope there's something the spec brings over the others.

I plan to play a SV hunter, but am open to the idea that I'll be mostly ranged for raiding. SV can be my dungeon spec and questing spec that I occasionally get to use during a raid. Right now I'm planning mostly BM & SV, although we all get to play all three starting this week!

- - - Updated - - -

Both Freezing (Steel) and Tar Trap (Caltrops) are being thrown (40yds range) in Legion, only Explosive trap is placed automatically in melee. There are also several other abilities which have 40yds range as Survival, making them somewhat effective when needing to kill adds from far away. Abilities like: Spitting Cobra, Dragonsfire Grenade, Throwing Axes, A Murder of Crows and maybe some more if I missed any.



This is true and a very valid post of why the competition in melee is very high in Legion. I just don't think it will be as high as people says-

lol ~ I got humbled on my hunter tonight. Just had a derp night; probably needed to be sleeping for a change instead of trying to squeeze in one more raid. Anyways, if I'm going to derp it up as ranged, maybe SV won't be any worse. :P

[EAVBERBWF]

vers #1 stat leaves a bad taste in my mouth

Are you working on SV sims for pre-patch 100 or legion launch 110?
We've been discussing the Survival APL between both the SimC and AMR simulators on the TSL forums for the past week. It would be nice to have more external hunter eyes weighing in on both developments, if you have anything additional to add:

I've just been using the sims in that thread l0l, but I could help out and make some of my own.

[Zoopercat]

I second the motion for more hunters playing with sims to get the best APLs. I have some videos for those playing with the AMR simulator that might help:

--Sim intro (9 min video giving a crash course of everything)
--Editing rotations (it's actually quite easy!)
--For the hardcore: transferring SimC APLs into AMR
--For the hardcore: Analyzing 2 different rotations to make a super rotation

And of course, join a bunch of people in our discord if you have questions.

(lastly, the simulator is for Legion with legion gear. T18 WoD set bonuses and trinkets are not implemented, so tests for pre-patch won't be super helpful, sorry!)

[Keltas]

I second the motion for more hunters playing with sims to get the best APLs. I have some videos for those playing with the AMR simulator that might help:

--Sim intro (9 min video giving a crash course of everything)
--Editing rotations (it's actually quite easy!)
--For the hardcore: transferring SimC APLs into AMR
--For the hardcore: Analyzing 2 different rotations to make a super rotation

And of course, join a bunch of people in our discord if you have questions.

(lastly, the simulator is for Legion with legion gear. T18 WoD set bonuses and trinkets are not implemented, so tests for pre-patch won't be super helpful, sorry!)

Just a quick question, not super hunter related but still applies.

Are the t19 trinkets working correctly in the sims? They are pretty terrible (the ones that damage at least) so I usually avoid trying them in testing.

[Zoopercat]

@Keltas I have to triple check with Swol to see if ALL of the trinkets are in. I know over the weekend we were around 90% implemented. All set bonuses and legendaries are implemented though.

That being said, even if they are implemented, some of them have unknowns. Like if a trinket summons a pet, often times the pet damage is unknown until extensive testing has been done. And since there isn't a vendor on the beta that sells the trinkets for easy testing, those have been hard to track down. So special proc-trinkets definitely need caution (in all simulators) until those things are known. In the meantime, everyone takes a best guess, and SimC and AMR are sharing data back and forth as things get tested.

[Anterra]

Looks like they really need to change mastery for SV...

Phps, just idea - make mastery not to proc an additional Charge with some %, but to Increase the Duration of mongoose fury?
Something like - different attacks has a % chance (depend on mastery) to increase the duration of MF for additional 2-3 seconds? So we can make our burst-phase longer, wich greatly correspond to our 4-piece bonus from set (stay longer with 50% damage buff).

[Keltas]

Looks like they really need to change mastery for SV...

Phps, just idea - make mastery not to proc an additional Charge with some %, but to Increase the Duration of mongoose fury?
Something like - different attacks has a % chance (depend on mastery) to increase the duration of MF for additional 2-3 seconds? So we can make our burst-phase longer, wich greatly correspond to our 4-piece bonus from set (stay longer with 50% damage buff).

Just tacking on a "MB damage increased by X%" would be more than enough to make it worthwhile.
Especially if they just used that random number it seems to have on it. Like still, why does it list 40%, but is actually 4%.


Just thought of something else as well. Remember our dev blog? They said they wanted us to be around "20%" chance to proc charges in the first tier. We can't get there even with high mastery on every single piece. What happened to that? I know there have been changes since then, but it's vastly weaker than they originally said it would be.

[zyx]

Before the patch I used the 715 epic 6/6 crafted gun.
After the patch, I received a 655 rare polearm.

Guess it's just fuck my luck that I lose 60 ilvls on go 1 step down the rarity ladder?
I heard other people got higher ilvl polearms as well.

My horde hunter used to have a 645 bow, but also got a 655 polearm.

[oqtopus]

Before the patch I used the 715 epic 6/6 crafted gun.
After the patch, I received a 655 rare polearm.

Guess it's just fuck my luck that I lose 60 ilvls on go 1 step down the rarity ladder?
I heard other people got higher ilvl polearms as well.

think it gives you a polearm based on the raw 0/4 ilvl not 4/4

not 100% sure on this tho

[Nythiz]

Polearm rarity depends on your progress in HFC as far as I know.

Should be fairly easy to join a heroic HFC group and kill Kormrok who drops a spear.

[zyx]

Polearm rarity depends on your progress in HFC as far as I know.

If that is true, it is absolute horse shit.

[Miggy]

If that is true, it is absolute horse shit.

I suspect he is right, i received the 655 polearm myself (only done a couple HFC bosses in LFR) but a guildie who has cleared it on heroic got a 705 version.

I think it's pretty tight considering you can get a 695 weapon from the baleful tokens without setting foot in a raid (can confirm they give polearms now, as I bought one myself today and upgraded it)