[BETA] Destruction Warlock Discussion

[Baconeggcheese]

Lord of Flames is easily triple damage of Doomguard single target

Mine was only what 2.7x on that pull, and infernal had lust. Still significantly stronger for the gcd, and competes with the other traits for ST while just completely dominating multi-target. Granted his concern seemed to be more about how that damage is being done, but the other two are insignificant in moment to moment gameplay and completely rng so I'm kind of curious what his reasoning is there.

Besides the way to Lord of Flames is filled by fantastic traits, well except for Eternal Struggle which is shit.

It was pretty damned good until that announcement QQ

Honestly it'll still be *something* any time we don't have reverse entropy as it'll happen naturally and if anything just happens to line up its getting a bit of mitigation.

[Deleted]

degn89...could see how you got the first conflag + 234 sp. the second and third I have no idea I understand there is less time of the immolate left..but those numbers seems a bit off for me. If you care to explain id be grateful

It stacks with itself, so you can multiply the bonus by 1.6 each time. So 160% of base, then 160% of 160%, and so on.

[JV Chequer]

Since Mythic Raiding opening will be around after 1 month or so since Release day I'm pretty sure get into 23 traits it's OK-ish without a inhuman-nerdy effort.

So I'm looking forward something like that: http://legion.wowhead.com/artifact-c...TLwEzABMyAVSwE

I Think Dimensional Ripper tree it's just too good to be left behind mainly 'cause helps we out on burning things with CB and Lord of Flames just sounds yummy to burst aoe situations like we have on Mythic and Mythic+. Pass CoC for a week or two until mid-progression on mythic (on my case at least) it's just ok to me.

[FurtyIRL]

I'm curious what makes you say that, CoC itself is arguably one of the weaker traits in the entire tree. The 18% immolate dmg is solid, but you have to straight up waste 3 levels to get to it (though the eternal struggle just saw a fairly hefty nerf)

Ultimately I don't see going Lord of Flames first, per my original post, as the best option. Definitely the biggest reason to go down that tree early is Impish Incineration as it is probably one of the highest efficiency points on the tree early. In my head I see Residual Flames + CoC as being a lot more fingertip damage for bursting down important stuff, which is largely the strength of Destruction even still. I wouldn't be surprised if heading to the LoF path second was an optimal choice, however.

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Actually I would even consider leaving CoC and LoF and trying to get Residual + Burning ASAP, considering the relative strength of Immolate right now. It's really unfortunate they are both barred behind garbage tier 3 pointers.

[Duckz0rs]

Actually I would even consider leaving CoC and LoF and trying to get Residual + Burning ASAP, considering the relative strength of Immolate right now. It's really unfortunate they are both barred behind garbage tier 3 pointers.

Is that with or without Roaring Blaze, or is Roaring Blaze so strong it's a default choice (doesn't seem far-fetched)?

[hiramloram]

I'm honestly really worried about locks.

Am I being paranoid?

You are not being paranoid. You have reviewed the current class and its abilities and pointed out areas of concern. You have utilized your ability to observe past and present warlock-ruining blizz mistakes. You have formulated and expressed reservations regarding blizz's current and future judgment, and their ability to "fix" a class that wasn't broken until the last time blizz "fixed" it.

This is not paranoia. These are beneficial abilities which you should utilize to their fullest potential. You're certainly well ahead of the 2-3 self-anointed "experts" on these boards who don't share the mental acuity that you possess.

[Baconeggcheese]

Ultimately I don't see going Lord of Flames first, per my original post, as the best option. Definitely the biggest reason to go down that tree early is Impish Incineration as it is probably one of the highest efficiency points on the tree early. In my head I see Residual Flames + CoC as being a lot more fingertip damage for bursting down important stuff, which is largely the strength of Destruction even still. I wouldn't be surprised if heading to the LoF path second was an optimal choice, however.

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Actually I would even consider leaving CoC and LoF and trying to get Residual + Burning ASAP, considering the relative strength of Immolate right now. It's really unfortunate they are both barred behind garbage tier 3 pointers.

I could see that for dimensional ripper and CoC as they're both RNG things that I don't see as what I'm imagining you mean by "fingertip damage", but lord of flames on the other hand is guaranteed heavy on demand aoe burst. Having a tool like that for progression is incredibly strong, even if it were once a fight (and obviously this could potentially be cheesed by combat rez). I find it really odd that you'd be so quick to dismiss it for something like randomly having conflag doing a bit more dmg or randomly getting a few portal charges over the course of a fight. Neither of those things are on demand, you'd have to RNG into them and over the course of the fight they average out to equal-ish to less value than lord of flames on patchwerk, and are completely dwarfed by it any time it can cleave / aoe.

I'm also trying to understand immolate being your go to for on demand burst as well when what carries our on demand burst is CB, SB, and portals. I don't see our dot as the thing I'm worried about for on demand bursting priority adds. Chaotic instability is the only thing that's really buffing the dmg that carries our on demand burst and we'll have that regardless before mythics.

Really its a question of what's more valuable, 18% immolate dmg + random CoC procs, or the on heavy on demand aoe burst of lord of flames + 24% immolate crit (and the shards that are generated by that, which makes soul snatcher more valuable) + impish incineration. I think the latter is very clearly stronger as CoC is weak and not consistent and while 18% immolate dmg is strong I don't think it makes up the difference nor would it be all that potent for on demand burst.

I'd be very interested if there's been theorycrafting going on that says otherwise though.

[Deleted]

I could see that for dimensional ripper and CoC as they're both RNG things that I don't see as what I'm imagining you mean by "fingertip damage", but lord of flames on the other hand is guaranteed heavy on demand aoe burst. Having a tool like that for progression is incredibly strong, even if it were once a fight (and obviously this could potentially be cheesed by combat rez). I find it really odd that you'd be so quick to dismiss it for something like randomly having conflag doing a bit more dmg or randomly getting a few portal charges over the course of a fight. Neither of those things are on demand, you'd have to RNG into them and over the course of the fight they average out to equal-ish to less value than lord of flames on patchwerk, and are completely dwarfed by it any time it can cleave / aoe.

I'm also trying to understand immolate being your go to for on demand burst as well when what carries our on demand burst is CB, SB, and portals. I don't see our dot as the thing I'm worried about for on demand bursting priority adds. Chaotic instability is the only thing that's really buffing the dmg that carries our on demand burst and we'll have that regardless before mythics.

Really its a question of what's more valuable, 18% immolate dmg + random CoC procs, or the on heavy on demand aoe burst of lord of flames + 24% immolate crit (and the shards that are generated by that, which makes soul snatcher more valuable) + impish incineration. I think the latter is very clearly stronger as CoC is weak and not consistent and while 18% immolate dmg is strong I don't think it makes up the difference nor would it be all that potent for on demand burst.

I'd be very interested if there's been theorycrafting going on that says otherwise though.

I agree, 24% crit > 18% damage, and more shard regen. I don't know the chance for it to get a mini chaos bolt, but I heard 50%, which is nice but expensive behind the 3 point dead weight. Atleast LoF gets the 1/1 Imp damage talent almost for free.

[Turturin the Warlock]

I agree, 24% crit > 18% damage, and more shard regen. I don't know the chance for it to get a mini chaos bolt, but I heard 50%, which is nice but expensive behind the 3 point dead weight. Atleast LoF gets the 1/1 Imp damage talent almost for free.

I'd actually like to see us figure out what is actually best (Lord of Flames vs CoC) on a single target encounter of less than 10 minutes. To do that, you'd need to know the proc chance of CoC. Has anyone tested this or have logs where we could reasonably estimate (i.e. you casted conflag a bunch of times and we also know your crit chance when you logged it)?

How many minutes does the fight have to be for CoC to be better? My own logs from testing at 825-850 ilvl (scaled) suggest a similar 1-1.2MM damage gain for lord of flames on a single target over not having the trait and using DG instead.

[Baconeggcheese]

Looks like around a 33~ish% proc rate looking at my logs.

All 3 gold traits look like they're close on patchwerk from what little I've skimmed my logs. The major difference is how that dmg is done, with lord of flames being aoe and controlled as opposed to the other two being rng and not things you can sit on forever.

[Gaidax]

Well yes, the trick with Lord of Flame is that you can dump it on AoE and it will end up being silly. not Affliction Skorpyron silly, but still silly.

[Fallensaint]

Going by the datamining, CoC has a 50% proc chance.

http://beta.wowdb.com/spells/219195-...artifactRank=1

[Turturin the Warlock]

Going by the datamining, CoC has a 50% proc chance.

http://beta.wowdb.com/spells/219195-...artifactRank=1

Ok, let’s look at it using the 50% proc chance, 100% mastery and 10% crit rate, and 28K spellpower (we’ll assume 0 haste) and also at the low and high end of the ranges for damage. I think these are reasonably conservative estimates for starter raid gear assuming a mastery/crit focus.

For CoC to win out over Lord of Flames doing 1MM – 1.3MM more damage than a doomguard on ST, you’d need
1 conflag not procced = 1.04 for artifact trait *(.9*204% of spellpower + .1*2*204% )= 1.04*(1.1*204%)= 233.4% spellpower
1 conflag procced = 1.04*1.10 (crit rate dmg increase)*408% of spellpower = 466.8%

So every 2 conflags I can expect to deal ~700% spellpower with the trait, a difference of 233.4% over not having it. With the average mastery effect of 50%, this comes out to be 350% spellpower for every 2 conflags, or 175% per conflag.

Effectively, each conflag provides an additional 175% spellpower with the trait. If my Spellpower is 28K, then it’s 49000 per cast, and I’d need between 21 and 27 casts to make it worth it. (1 – 1.3MM damage range). At 2 charges + 12 sec recharge, you’d need 19*12 +1.5 seconds = 231 seconds at the low end, and 302 secs at the high end.

So for CoC to “pay off” under these gear assumptions (pretty conservative), you’d need a fight between 3:51 and 5:02.

Did this all without my Beta Character in front of me, so if someone wants to plug in their real character data and real Infernal log numbers, we might get something more precise. The problem with logs is that your gear was scaled though, take that into consideration.

I think it's somewhat clear that for single target, CoC will usually win (remember I've used 0 haste and low estimates for SP and Crit). But there's other considerations (cleave, AoE) and artifact traits (the path) to consider. So the debate will go on.

[FurtyIRL]

I just personally don't see the value in Lord of Flames as a tool for "AoE burst". It's kind of the opposite of burst, really. If the impact dealt the majority of the damage, similar to Cataclysm, it would be an entirely different animal. Based off of everything I have seen in Emerald Nightmare, and contrasting that with most of our rough blueprints, I don't really see a situation where LoF is dealing valuable damage, with the exception perhaps of Il'gynoth (which is the second boss). As I mentioned previously though, it definitely looks good on the DPS meter in a lot of situations. In any case I didn't mean to inflame speculation, as I personally believe that it's a huge waste of time to be too overly concerned this far in advance, especially while tuning is still regularly taking place. I just wanted to assert that immediately rushing Lord of Flames is probably not the greatest pathing, regardless of whether you choose to go there second or not.

Also Turturin why would be focusing Mastery? Currently I would project our stat values as Haste > Crit > Versatility > Mastery, with Critical Strike starting to catch up and possibly overtake Haste at around 42-45% Haste.

[Turturin the Warlock]

Also Turturin why would be focusing Mastery? Currently I would project our stat values as Haste > Crit > Versatility > Mastery, with Critical Strike starting to catch up and possibly overtake Haste at around 42-45% Haste.

It's what I had a reasonable basis for allocation based on my beta character. I.e. it's what I've been personally testing on my main beta to one.

I agree with you haste most likely better, at least in most situations. Just didn't have numbers in front of me for a reasonable estimate. Happy to do the calls over if you post or message me your own beta stats

[bio347]

I'd be interested to see the mathematical bits and bobs to the stat weights, since there seem to be a couple schools of thought out there. Icy-Veins saying that they were determined from "common sense, in-game testing, and simulations using Simulation Craft" doesn't particularly inspire confidence, especially when (AFAIK) simcraft hasn't been optimized for 7.0 yet.

[FurtyIRL]

I'd be interested to see the mathematical bits and bobs to the stat weights, since there seem to be a couple schools of thought out there. Icy-Veins saying that they were determined from "common sense, in-game testing, and simulations using Simulation Craft" doesn't particularly inspire confidence, especially when (AFAIK) simcraft hasn't been optimized for 7.0 yet.

Yeah I think that's just a default include message that goes at the top of all the guides. Don't think it really matters though since the SimC data is wrong more often than it's right

[dholland662]

the one thing I think people should prepare for is a nerf to Wreak Havoc. They nerfed glyphed soul swap in cata so it is entirely possible.

[Turturin the Warlock]

the one thing I think people should prepare for is a nerf to Wreak Havoc. They nerfed glyphed soul swap in cata so it is entirely possible.

I think people should be prepared for a buff to incinerate so that all we do is spam it and do 20% more damage than any other class. They buffed shadow bolt like this in burning crusade so it's entirely possible.

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I'd be interested to see the mathematical bits and bobs to the stat weights, since there seem to be a couple schools of thought out there. Icy-Veins saying that they were determined from "common sense, in-game testing, and simulations using Simulation Craft" doesn't particularly inspire confidence, especially when (AFAIK) simcraft hasn't been optimized for 7.0 yet.

I don't read icy veins, but the common sense bit would suggest haste then crit because those are your only stats that affect all your damage and increase shard generation, with haste increasing generation more than crit.

I was testing mastery extensively because it is on a point for point basis, easy to get a high percentage, and also wanted so see about the shard income to spend feel. Ultimately the synergy you lose on roaring blaze and eradication uptime doesn't seem worth it.

As to weights...I'll wait for better sims to try to get a ballpark as to the magnitude of the difference. I think haste emerge as clear winner, but I'm not sure there will be a big disparity between mastery and crit

[Baconeggcheese]

I just personally don't see the value in Lord of Flames as a tool for "AoE burst". It's kind of the opposite of burst, really.

One cast of it did 1.9m on a ST boss over 25s, it's 76k dps for each of those seconds times number of targets that's happening simultaneously with your casting. If that isn't burst I dunno what is, especially after you referenced immolate as burst.

What's probably the most redeeming thing about LoF is that it isn't simply aoe padding, as it competes and often beats out the other 2 talents on long encounters yet alone short ones. And that's before aoe or cheesing it with an intentional death.

I don't really see a situation where LoF is dealing valuable damage

Again LoF isn't the only thing on the tree leading to LoF. Impish incineration may as well be a 4th gold trait, as well as the benefits of 24% crit to immolate which is significantly more valuable earlier on at lower gear levels.

On the same token I don't see what valuable dmg is to be gained from CoC or dimensional ripper. Both are inconsistent at best, DR is a few extra portals a fight which can do dmg in any of 3 ways and aren't reliable and you generally want to sit on 1 charge (and god forbid you get the shard on fire dmg legendary at which point it may as well not exist) and CoC is again a proc that isn't reliable on a spell that needs to be used in a specific way with 2 of our talents and can't be sat on for very long. Of the 3 I don't really see how LoF isn't clearly the most valuable kind of dmg. Especially if you end up getting the %dmg after dg / infernal cast legendberry.

In any case I didn't mean to inflame speculation, as I personally believe that it's a huge waste of time to be too overly concerned this far in advance

That's what we're all here for though, and there's nothing better to talk about :P

Dissenting opinions like this are always the most fun to converse about as there's more room for growth and learning than the conversations that have been going on. I find it interesting that you value what you value above other things, and I keep prodding because I want you to go into more detail as you defend your position as I stand to gain insight from that.

Also Turturin why would be focusing Mastery? Currently I would project our stat values as Haste > Crit > Versatility > Mastery, with Critical Strike starting to catch up and possibly overtake Haste at around 42-45% Haste.

A lot of the guys around here are on a mastery kick for some reason, I'm not entirely sure why though. I guess if nothing it looks more tangible seeing how the numer scales a lot faster even though its mechanics don't take full advantage of that larger number. I find it odd that you'd value versatility over it though, iirc 350 points is 3% mastery and .7% vers.

What makes you value that haste number specifically? I was speculating up to the point where it allows you to fit up to 3 conflags into a single normal immolate for roaring blaze cheese but that's only 33% iirc (once we're at suramar, I'm not really concerned with emerald nightmare).