Your reasons why you are going Retribution in legion.

[Konteil]

could you explain actually what you find to be "best iteration so far imho" ?

No.
That was the point of my comparison.
But yeah, I guess you are right, those would suit better

yes i can . there is very little downtime if you spec into it correctly. the damange is overall pretty solid. mobility is slowed down some but the fact that you can stomp the crap out of something when you get there makes up for it. rotation is nice and streamlined but can be made more complex based off of you r soec if you so desire. so to me that makes it very nice. there are talend choces that actually affect your playstyle again. i think its fun and having played ret for the last 11 years round about its nice that this is the first time in a long time that i could actually figure out how to play my ton pretty fast after an overhaul without lookingit up on websites forst. i like to play not spend all my time doing research into how to "getGOOD"

[Morally Grey Storm]

Equality looks like it accidentially slipped into the regular talent tree, rather than the pvp one.

it's not accidentally.
They are forcing this talent upon us, Dragonslaying or PvP tree - it is of no matter.
They even posted a few times about how we are going to like it .
And they keep on buffing it despite all the feedback.
Current Equalolity has no place in Ret abilities.

I think we both agree that it should be replaced/exchanged.

It should've not existed to begin with.

Balance and spec/talent diversity(interesting design for that matter) are contradicting each other.

Wrecktangle brought a wonderful example of when it's not true: Sera vs FV. (And I quite liked EMPS for solo PvP, as an offhand)
So was our WoD tier15 - you could choose whatever suited YOU, not what is dictated by encouner before you.
THAT should be the point of talents.

. All blizzard can do is providing a variation of playstyles and look and feels you choose from and try to tune them to reltaive balance.

did they deliver on this goal regarding Ret Dragonslaying talent tree?

Imbalance is just part of the reality you as a player have to deal with. Of course you can choose what ever class you want to play. Just as much as you can choose your talents. It all depends on where you personally draw the line.

so why would you bring up some made up lines about progressive raiding or "extreme minmaxing" ?

[Konteil]

and sorry i cant type well missing a few fingers and i just get frustrated and stop correcting errors after a while

[Morally Grey Storm]

yes i can . there is very little downtime if you spec into it correctly

Was there any downtime in WoD if you specced "correctly" ?

the damange is overall pretty solid

solid compared to..?

mobility is slowed down some but the fact that you can stomp the crap out of something when you get there makes up for it.

so it's fun for you to waddle here and there in hopes of finally catching up to something so you could probably do some damage?

rotation is nice and streamlined but can be made more complex based off of you r soec if you so desire.

seriously?
Rotation that is set in stone w/o anything to spice it up, is nice and streamlined?

. there are talend choces that actually affect your playstyle again.

such as..?
Don't say "Equality" please don't.

[Migrin]

Wrecktangle brought a wonderful example of whe nti's not true: Sera vs FV. (And I quite liked EMPS for solo PvP, as an offhand)
So was our WoD tier15 - you could choose whatever suited YOU, not what is dictated by encouner before you.
THAT should be the point of talents. Did they deliver on this goal regarding Ret Dragonslayi9ng talent tree?

Agreed, no they didn't.


so why would you bring up some made up lines about progressive raiding or "extreme minmaxing" ?

Your statement of "So you say we get to choose talents?" left a lot of room for interpretation. Thinking you'd get kicked for using a talent that provides marginally less dps, eventhough it is completely against your personal preference, implied to me that minmaxing was of concern to you. More so than preference in playstyle.

But what ever man. I think we're both not adding any value to this thread, which is about why we're planing to play the spec in legion and not whats wrong with it. Best of luck ;-)

[elvor0]

Because I've always been a Paladin and always been Ret at heart even since Vanilla. Even though I don't particularly like the new Ret, everything is on my Paladin, I've barely ever done anything with my alts, so my Paladin isn't just my main, it's a log of everything I've ever done in WoW. The idea of not playing him makes me genuinely sad, like I'm leaving him to die in a ditch.

Frankly as bad as it might feel now, it doesn't phase me that much because nothing will ever be as bad as Judgement and Seal of Command.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Agreed, no they didn't.

It should push for certain conclusions.

Your statement of "So you say we get to choose talents?" left a lot of room for interpretation. Thinking you'd get kicked for using a talent that provides marginally less dps, eventhough it is completely against your personal preference, implied to me that minmaxing was of concern to you. More so than preference in playstyle.

you wouldn't kick Ret who tries to use Uqalolity in raid?
I know I would.
With an ironwrought slipper.

I think we're both not adding any value to this thread, which is about why we're planing to play the spec in legion and not whats wrong with it. Best of luck ;-)

and I think thread shouldn't be confined to one single theme.
People state their reasons they are going to play - why not discuss or question their reasons?

[offwhite]

I've played every class and spec here and there over the years and I like to play everything so it really just comes to this

[Avengelyne KT]

Played it since Vanilla, will keep playing it until the game dies

[elvor0]

Bullshit.
I should play whatever spec I wish.
Isn't it the whole point of "balance" ?

Well yeah, that is the whole point of balance, but things aren't balanced. He was talking about min maxing, which is mutually exclusive from playing whatever you wish.
"I will play whatever spec I wish but I will kick anyone who uses Equality" Does that not strike you as slightly hypocritical? Not that I disagree with the notion that Equality is terrible, but you can't entrench yourself about you playing whatever you wish and then chastise other people for playing whatever they wish.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Well yeah, that is the whole point of balance, but things aren't balanced. He was talking about min maxing, which is mutually exclusive from playing whatever you wish.

And I was not talking about minmaxing.
He brough taht out of the blue .

"I will play whatever spec I wish but I will kick anyone who uses Equality" Does that not strike you as slightly hypocritical?

No.

you can't entrench yourself about you playing whatever you wish and then chastise other people for playing whatever they wish.

I couldn't care less what spec other person plays.
But Equalolity is a surefire sign said person won't do good to raid, won't dps on required level, will stress healers, will put himself deliberately in danger, potentially disrupting a kill-attempt.
So yes I can and will.

After all, I'm told we have "great" choices in talents, we can "choose" what to pick, right?
Choose Equality, be a bad boy.
Please do.

[Wrecktangle]

Unless you are a progress raider, you really shouldn't force that shit on you mate. And if you are, you are going to play what ever spec sports the highest numbers anyway. We can argue that the talents available are not interesting enough or can too easily be identified as the right choice for a certain need(AE vs single for example), rather then offering a variation in playstyle. But if you min max to the extreme, there can never be a choice.

See that blah blah if you min-max there's no choice attitude is so unhealthy for the game. It's also so grossly inaccurate it's ridiculous. There have been numerous examples of excellent talent tree setups that fit the design paradigm that Storm and I are discussing.

WOD Tier 15 - Pursuit of Justice, Speed of Light, and Long Arm of the Law. Go ahead and min-max those for me. Each one is useful, some impact, and changes the way your character moves around. Talents need to go back to being like this. They should not be do AOE or do more ST damage. That's not a fucking talent choice.

Even WOD 100 Tier - Seraphim vs. FV (ES was not a good talent). The point here is that Seraphim out-DPS's FV marginally if played extremely well. This type of talent is ok; because you should have the option to do a little more DPS if you can manage it at a super high level, but managing an easier talent at a super high level should reward COMPETITIVE DPS even if it's a small % lower. That is ok. Let's not forget that both of these talents also represented pretty dramatic playstyle changes which is welcomed.

How about the defensive WOD Tier (I can't remember the level, too lazy to look) - You have the talent Selfless Healer to have big D heals on teammates (or insta-heals on self) reduced cooldowns on defensives, or the option to have charges on utility. That's an exceedingly well designed tier that lends itself to playstyle changes.

In Legion? Yeah you can pick from either an AOE move or a single target move. You can pick between a buff that MARGINALLY changes your only offensive CD or you can have some RNG in your life, or you can be instantly declined while apping to even normal raiding guilds.

The question here is will DP have COMPETITIVE DPS to Crusade? Or will there be ultimately no choice here?

personally i lovewhat they have doe with ret. ive played it with ashbringer on beta and i l0ve it. best iteration so far imho

Storm basically already covered what I was going to say, albeit probably less eloquently than I would have, but where in NJ do you live so I can slap some sense into you (I'm just kidding, fellow NJ fam).

[Redblade]

that held true while we were playing in WoD.
Now it's not, anymore.

Not to mention that in most real situations the difference was minor unless you, as the ret, controlled the ring. A couple of fights was the exception though like Fel lord.

[Chickat]

I realize some dont like the new ret, but I still find it fun and interesting. Its still better than Cata ret at any rate. I could take or leave the Judgement buff, but its not bad per-say.

[Fatali]

Because I have played it since TBC.

What he said.

I'm too young to quit and too old to change.

[Migrin]

See that blah blah if you min-max there's no choice attitude is so unhealthy for the game. It's also so grossly inaccurate it's ridiculous. There have been numerous examples of excellent talent tree setups that fit the design paradigm that Storm and I are discussing.

WOD Tier 15 - Pursuit of Justice, Speed of Light, and Long Arm of the Law. Go ahead and min-max those for me. Each one is useful, some impact, and changes the way your character moves around. Talents need to go back to being like this. They should not be do AOE or do more ST damage. That's not a fucking talent choice.

Even WOD 100 Tier - Seraphim vs. FV (ES was not a good talent). The point here is that Seraphim out-DPS's FV marginally if played extremely well. This type of talent is ok; because you should have the option to do a little more DPS if you can manage it at a super high level, but managing an easier talent at a super high level should reward COMPETITIVE DPS even if it's a small % lower. That is ok. Let's not forget that both of these talents also represented pretty dramatic playstyle changes which is welcomed.

How about the defensive WOD Tier (I can't remember the level, too lazy to look) - You have the talent Selfless Healer to have big D heals on teammates (or insta-heals on self) reduced cooldowns on defensives, or the option to have charges on utility. That's an exceedingly well designed tier that lends itself to playstyle changes.

In Legion? Yeah you can pick from either an AOE move or a single target move. You can pick between a buff that MARGINALLY changes your only offensive CD or you can have some RNG in your life, or you can be instantly declined while apping to even normal raiding guilds.

The question here is will DP have COMPETITIVE DPS to Crusade? Or will there be ultimately no choice here?



Storm basically already covered what I was going to say, albeit probably less eloquently than I would have, but where in NJ do you live so I can slap some sense into you (I'm just kidding, fellow NJ fam).

Dude we are basically arguing over nothing. What I tried to say in my first post was basically just that off all the talent builds available, there's one that I consider exciting enough to deal with the current situation. I am by no means excited with the spec nor the talent tree. I play ret despite everything they shove down our throat. Not because of it.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Dude we are basically arguing over nothing. What I tried to say in my first post was basically just that off all the talent builds available, there's one that I consider exciting enough to deal with the current situation. I am by no means excited with the spec nor the talent tree. I play ret despite everything they shove down our throat. Not because of it.

So basically you are fighting your own class and spec, not Scripted dragons.
But why?

[Lorelya]

I've been playing my pally since BC. I've put in a lot of time. I am really attached to her and just don't wanna give her up so easily. I don't really have a desire to go back to holy, so at this point its stay ret and hope for the best or throw in the towel and switch to my holy priest.

[Deleted]

I've decided to stick to it. Not cause i really like it, but cause i couldn't find anything else that pleased me. Might aswell stick to what i'm better informed on.

[curupuru]

Because my guild needed a mdps and one from the Conqueror tier. Also DH do not rly interest me.

Been playing all palaspecs from early cata to this day so I have a little idea how to do it and I'm ok with the playstyle.