BREAKING: Military coup in Turkey in progress! Tanks on the street, police disarmed.

[Acidbaron]

Europe has laws were certain officials can hold you responsible for insulting them, these laws are outdated and going away.

What you do see happen in Europe compared to the US, are Hate laws. Incite hatred towards a group of people that will cost you fines or temporary cost you your freedom. Hate crimes however are to incite violence and so it goes beyond just a few words or insults, it is to really rally people to inflict physical harm.

[Kuntantee]

these laws are outdated and going away.

Are they? For Germany, I think it was @Slant who said that the law that Erdogan used is going to be changed and not removed. They will keep insulting head of the state of Germany punishable, but others not.

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State of Emergency has just passed from the parliament. AKP and MHP voted yes, HDP and CHP voted no.

[Ebalina]

Every one who thinks that whats currently going on in Turkey is remotely normal needs their heads checked in.

A war is brewing so hard you have no idea....

[Deleted]

Every one who thinks that whats currently going on in Turkey is remotely normal needs their heads checked in.

A war is brewing so hard you have no idea....

Should probably have glassed Syria before the aggression could spill over the border.

[Kuntantee]

Every one who thinks that whats currently going on in Turkey is remotely normal needs their heads checked in.

A war is brewing so hard you have no idea....

This is my opinion as well. Turkey is heading to a civil war.

[Acidbaron]

Are they? For Germany, I think it was @Slant who said that the law that Erdogan used is going to be changed and not removed. They will keep insulting head of the state of Germany punishable, but others not.

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State of Emergency has just passed from the parliament. AKP and MHP voted yes, HDP and CHP voted no.

The difference is even if they remain, these laws will make it so you have to face a court. However to see a person ending up in jail for only that is not something you'll see happen fast.

To do that you need to make it almost near death threats, if you managed to reach that magnitude you can see a month of jail time as what happened in the netherlands this is nowhere near comparable to what is happening in Turkey regarding any criticism on erdogan meaning you end up facing prison.

Not surprised to see the HDP vote no. They are very much aware that the next witch hunt is going to be on them being a sizable opposition.

[Darksorrow]

I haven't read your law. Your anecdotal evidence is irrelevant. What I know for a fact is that the laws in Europe, in general, is much more restrictive compared to USA when it comes to freedom of speech. In the case of insults, it may not be invoked but laws are still there. If you are not lazy, go find the law you are talking about and enlighten me as well.

Your anecdotal facts against mines.

I was not talking about laws regarding freedom of speech in general, but saying bad things (but not lies) about a person.
That is allowed in most of Europe as far as I know.

I don't think freedom of speech should protect holocaust-deniers or make supporters of the ruling german party that caused WW2 immune when advocating their views.
I also think however - assuming we are talking about the Böhmermann affair - that the dude is not innocent and did more than what freedom of speech should be.
There's criticism, there's insults, and then there's outright calling a person a beaters little girls who watches CP and has sexual relationships with goats.
I think this level should never be covered by freedom of speech in any country, lining up multiple things that are illegal in my country, thus outright claiming that person to be a quite bad criminal, without any proof.
It was a joke?
He outright stated that he will do something NOT protected by freedom of speech (thus a crime). And then proceeded to do so anyway.
...In context, it made sense I suppose...


However, as far as I can tell, Erdogan goes beyond that with that almost 2k cases, and attacks even those who are "merely" critical of him in the media.

[coprax]

Are they? For Germany, I think it was @Slant who said that the law that Erdogan used is going to be changed and not removed. They will keep insulting head of the state of Germany punishable, but others not.

The law that specifically protects foreign officials/head of states is going away, but you can still be sued for insults in a civil court.
So yes, insults are punishable by law, but not just when targeted at politicians. Anybody can sue when insulted. You, me, everyone.

[Kuntantee]

Your anecdotal facts against mines.

Your anecdotal evidence against my factual Germany example. Please note that I am not stating how laws are practiced in Europe, but the difference on paper compared to USA.

[Darksorrow]

Your anecdotal evidence against my factual Germany example. Please note that I am not stating how laws are practiced in Europe, but the difference on paper compared to USA.

Please enlighten me then, what's the difference between the relevant laws on paper between the USA and the EU, ignoring how laws are practiced.

As far as I know, both parts of the world have laws against defamation that is not protected by freedom of speech.

Böhmermann himself outright stated that what he will say is not protected by german freedom of speech laws, nor would he have been cleanly protected by them in the US as far as my understanding of their laws go.
I'm assuming you can't go someone a molester and animal abuser even in the US, because that's defamation.

He could appeal in both regions based on how it was a satire and be more likely to get away with it in the US, but then we are in the "how laws are practiced" region, which you made me note extra we are not talking about currently.

[Kuntantee]

Please enlighten me then, what's the difference between the relevant laws on paper between the USA and the EU, ignoring how laws are practiced.

This has been addressed by Reeve and it pretty much confirmed what I knew. There might be different laws depending on the state, in most cases only libel and slender is punished. Where as in Europe, for example, insults may (if invoked) get you punished.

[Ulmita]

This is my opinion as well. Turkey is heading to a civil war.

Meh, you guys should take some chill pills have a few mass orgies and rethink life.
Civil was is the worst case scenario and if Erdogan is remotely correct (that there are countries behind coup) that's exactly what they want you to do.

[Slant]

Are they? For Germany, I think it was @Slant who said that the law that Erdogan used is going to be changed and not removed. They will keep insulting head of the state of Germany punishable, but others not.

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State of Emergency has just passed from the parliament. AKP and MHP voted yes, HDP and CHP voted no.

The law regarding heads of states is going to get removed as the law that applies to everyone else basically says the same. It's a redundant law and it doesn't make sense to have an extra law just for heads of states if the consequences are going to be the same.

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I haven't read your law. Your anecdotal evidence is irrelevant. What I know for a fact is that the laws in Europe, in general, is much more restrictive compared to USA when it comes to freedom of speech. In the case of insults, it may not be invoked but laws are still there. If you are not lazy, go find the law you are talking about and enlighten me as well.

Is it restrictive, though? The law about insults is just radiating from our civil right that basically can be translated as "you can do whatever you want unless you infringe of the rights of others". And since human dignity is one of those rights, an insult would be "infringing on the rights of others".

I'm not too sure about the US legislation about this, but this isn't restrictive as much as it's levelling the playing field. Freedom of speech doesn't actually mean you can go and do whatever you want. This is not anarchy. You still have to adhere to rules all the time. Freedom of speech also doesn't protect citizens vs. citizens, which by the way completely destroys your argument. Freedom of speech has the sole purpose to protect you against persecution by the state.

See, what Erdogan is doing... arresting the opposition and mass firing of whole sectors? That's an ACTUAL case where freedom of speech is suspended. If you cannot speak out against Erdogan, there is no freedom of speech. This doesn't mean that you should be allowed to insult Erdogan, however.

[Darksorrow]

This has been addressed by Reeve and it pretty much confirmed what I knew. There might be different laws depending on the state, in most cases only libel and slender is punished. Where as in Europe, for example, insults may (if invoked) get you punished.

Examples please of your facts, because you keep using the word "Europe" and I still don't know what laws/insults you are referring to, that make someone being punishable for insults that are not defamation.

Examples of things that get you in trouble in "Europe" that don't get you in any trouble at all in the US because of freedom of speech.

[Slant]

This has been addressed by Reeve and it pretty much confirmed what I knew. There might be different laws depending on the state, in most cases only libel and slender is punished. Where as in Europe, for example, insults may (if invoked) get you punished.

This is partly true. But in this particular case, if the courts deem his skit about Erdogan as his artistic expression and part of his profession, he may very well be protected by both his professional and artistic civil rights. And yes, we do protect both to an extent.

In the end it'll be a tossup between Erdogan's right to have his human dignity unharmed vs. the right of an artist to critique Erdogan personally and in a manner that is the most effective to drive home the point of the critique. A judge will ultimately have to decide what he considers more valuable and how severe he considers the insult.

Someone could make the case that a head of state, a controversial one, may have to live with a certain amount of insults from the opposition. Our very own politicians have to live with that kind of insult every day. Heck, Merkel was caricatured as Hitler in Greece thousands of times...

If I was the judge, I'd tell Erdogan to put on his big boy pants and fix his country instead of crying about someone calling him names...

[Kuntantee]

Examples please of your facts, because you keep using the word "Europe" and I still don't know what laws/insults you are referring to, that make someone being punishable for insults that are not defamation.

I won't bother finding the laws. You can check yourself, USA's and European's take on insult are different, at least on paper. Two Germans just stated insult is punishable. For USA, First amendment is quite protective of freedom of speech. If you are so eager to find out, go find the laws. I hardly ever bother providing sources in this forum.

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Is it restrictive, though?

In art, I prefer USA's kind. In daily life, I prefer European style. If someone is constantly calling me a cunt, I should keep the right to sue the fucker. The lines in this issue a bit hard to draw tho.

[Slant]

In art, I prefer USA's kind. In daily life, I prefer European style. If someone is constantly calling me a cunt, I should keep the right to sue the fucker. The lines in this issue a bit hard to draw tho.

Did you miss the part where European civil rights protect artistic expression? Why do you think courts have to deal with the satirists skit? Remember, just because a court is looking into it doesn't mean that someone's guilty. So no, if someone's constantly calling you a cunt, you can sue him. And when he sings "You're a cunt" you can still sue him. Even if he's a 5 times Grammy winner. That's because it's a) not art, and b) his artistic expression may be limited by other rights. :P

If I'm a fatality artist and part of my artistic expression includes driving a stake through your body, that doesn't mean I'll get away with staking you. It means I'll go to jail and afterwards I'll have a long time in a psychiatric ward.

[Kuntantee]

@Slant
Yeah, then EU model seems better. I personally wouldn't want to deal with people insulting all day long, without having rights to sue them.

[PACOX]

#MakeIronyGreatAgain

Ted Cruz illustrated how the "uncuckables" are the biggest "cucks" out of anyone last night when he called out those who betrayed their principles and sold their souls to Trump.

Hats off to Cruz, Kasich, and Bush for at least not selling out to Trump...Rubio, Christie, Carson, and the numerous speakers not privileged enough for me to even remember their names.

I just don't understand it.

[Darksorrow]

I won't bother finding the laws. You can check yourself, USA's and European's take on insult are different, at least on paper. Two Germans just stated insult is punishable. For USA, First amendment is quite protective of freedom of speech. If you are so eager to find out, go find the laws. I hardly ever bother providing sources in this forum.

You dismissed my "anecdotal evidence" for "facts" you know, but facts you cannot supports are merely anecdotal evidence on your own.

Smearing your good name and causing you harm that way is punishable in both EU and US.
I could insult a man and his political views in a way that would not get me in trouble neither in the EU or the US, as long as I thread a fine enough line of making it a personal but not outright harmful opinion.

What I was trying to reply to was, that Erdogan is above that in his home country, silencing journalists who are critical of his views based on the law that protects him as head of state.
Laws like that we don't really have in the EU, do we?