[WINDWALKER] 7.X Discussion thread

[cRawmode]

Tried a few BGs on windwalker and it feels almost unplayable without the FoF stun and only 5 yd range, I can't hit anythig after the first tick of damage. The pvp talent with extra range and the stun feels 100% mandatory

As pointed out above this is exactly why we do have the PVP talents in the first place. I did play a lot of BGs the last two days and I feel like WW does a lot of pressure already. A lot of "in your face" uptime and when you connect FoF and WDP it is a lot of damage. Feelsgoodman.

[Lucrece]

As pointed out above this is exactly why we do have the PVP talents in the first place. I did play a lot of BGs the last two days and I feel like WW does a lot of pressure already. A lot of "in your face" uptime and when you connect FoF and WDP it is a lot of damage. Feelsgoodman.

Don't PvP talents take grinding for? It'll probably be days/weeks before you get the stun.

[cRawmode]

Don't PvP talents take grinding for? It'll probably be days/weeks before you get the stun.

That is correct it will take some time. It's not that you won't ever have the stun. Will it be annoying in the beginning without it? Yes of course. Does it feel good to work up to that goal and finally reach it? I guess so. I take the "grind for skills and talents" above the "grind for pvp gear" any time. In the end we will be balanced around having all those talents. The time in between might feel a bit odd I completely agree.

[Raakel]

I thought I was going Lock or Enhance for Legion but now that I've tested WW with the changes I quite like it. It feels very solid in comparison and not as fragile as my Shaman (although wearing mail???). It's so hard to guess on which horse I should put my money as I'm a bit worried that WW no performes decent and will fall behind later in the xp. Can any of the 110 WW share their thoughts on this? I thought I'll go Warlock but my performance in dungeons sucks with it. WW I can manage....

[Tibbets]

So maybe I'm confused on hit combo but why would you first, ever have full chi unless you were looking to pool and second use CJL to dump? I found myself Tuesday swapping between TP and BOK to dump
While waiting on FoF and RSK, WDP to get off CD. Occasionally on M arch and Manno SCK with an sef or close imp adds and ofc chi wave.

Am I missing out on something by not using CJL?

[Smog]

Can you guys confirm something for me? I've just been idly playing most of the specs in the game up to 104 or so, toying with their artifacts, exploring the new kits, etc. Do you guys have the hardest hitting single ability in the game with Strike of the Windlord?

It looks like it hits for 4500% AP baseline plus potential crits? I'm not sure I've found anything else that even comes close to this. DH artifact ability hits for ~3130% AP after the boosted Golden Dragon. An outlaw rogue's 6pt fully boosted x4 crit Between the Eyes hits for ~2400% AP. Even Fury's Artifact boosted Execute, which takes a long, long time to build up, only hits for about 4500% AP.

I'm not at all saying this is imbalanced. I'm sure you guys are balanced around this. I'm honestly just curious if ww monks now hold the title for hardest hitting single ability / hardest hitting burst ability, and if not, which class and ability have I forgotten?

[Deleted]

So maybe I'm confused on hit combo but why would you first, ever have full chi unless you were looking to pool and second use CJL to dump? I found myself Tuesday swapping between TP and BOK to dump
While waiting on FoF and RSK, WDP to get off CD. Occasionally on M arch and Manno SCK with an sef or close imp adds and ofc chi wave.

Am I missing out on something by not using CJL?

As far as I know, the intent of using CJL is if you are at 4 chi and just used a BOK. Instead of "wasting" 50 energy and 1 chi (cause you'll overcap) on TP, you would hit CJL and instantly interrupt it. The cast will count towards mastery and Hit Combo, not the dmg itself. Then you can cast another BoK -> TP, and hopefully have something else come off CD with Chi capped and Energy not capped.

This is probably more commonly used with Serenity atm btw, and we are mostly going to use Serenity due to SEF bug with mastery.

Edit: You can also doubletap Flying Serpent Kick instead of CJL for a stack/refresh on Hit Combo, which has been used by a few in their openers.

[Methosmv]

Your old weapon should be in your bags.

My mythic staff also disappeared, is not in my bag etc.. Not worried about it as I'll get a better one before I'd be able to tank.

[Pipboi]

Fine but you can make the same conclusion about any optimal rotation in the game. That's like saying you hate having to keep Immolate up in Destruction Warlock because you feel penalized when it falls off.

That's not at all the same, not even kind of close. Immolate is an active ability that does damage and has other applications.

The mastery is a newly added passive that says doesn't add anything to the rotation aside from forcing us to play a certain way.

I loved using Rising Sun Kick, pooling my chi with double Jabs then dropping 2 blackout kicks for heavy burst damage. The new mastery takes most of the 'choice' out of my rotation.

[Juliansfist]

I agree the new mastery imposes a play style/rotational requirement which antagonises player control and choice (you could say it impedes player mastery).

Could WW be facing yet another mastery? I hope so. The monk class really shows how little forethought, planning and testing uses sometimes.

[FayrenPickpocket]

I agree the new mastery imposes a play style/rotational requirement which antagonises player control and choice (you could say it impedes player mastery).

Could WW be facing yet another mastery? I hope so. The monk class really shows how little forethought, planning and testing uses sometimes.

Likewise, you could say that with your talent choices, player mastery can strongly increase.

You can also say that most mysteries are just flat damage increases, and most rotations antagonize player control and choice as well.

[Staggered]

So with the shift to Serenity for the time being, does this change haste to be more valuable due to the serenity window? I'm trying to mess around with stat balancing but without a working SimC its hard to gauge. If you have the stat budget (I'm 743-745 range ilvl) would it be more dps to try and fit 2 FoF in the serenity window by focusing on haste to achieve that?

[Lucrece]

Likewise, you could say that with your talent choices, player mastery can strongly increase.

You can also say that most mysteries are just flat damage increases, and most rotations antagonize player control and choice as well.

For PvP, it does matter. It staggers your burst capacity to take advantage of your mastery, as you'll have to weave in a Tiger Palm for every BoK.

SEF is terrible in PvP, the clones just get frost nova'd/feared with no way to break them out of CC unlike the WW who can trinket or previously nimble brew before they took that away.

You could TEB and dump a bunch of BoK's with serenity and do significant burst. That's all gone now in PvP and your only burst lies in using FoF coupled with a stun, which is a channeled skill and thus interruptible.

[Babylonius]

I thought I was going Lock or Enhance for Legion but now that I've tested WW with the changes I quite like it. It feels very solid in comparison and not as fragile as my Shaman (although wearing mail???). It's so hard to guess on which horse I should put my money as I'm a bit worried that WW no performes decent and will fall behind later in the xp. Can any of the 110 WW share their thoughts on this? I thought I'll go Warlock but my performance in dungeons sucks with it. WW I can manage....

It's difficult to give any forecast on how classses will stack up at 110, but WW has the tools to be incredibly strong. If you're concerned about dungeons, WW will be kings of that.

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So maybe I'm confused on hit combo but why would you first, ever have full chi unless you were looking to pool and second use CJL to dump? I found myself Tuesday swapping between TP and BOK to dump
While waiting on FoF and RSK, WDP to get off CD. Occasionally on M arch and Manno SCK with an sef or close imp adds and ofc chi wave.

Am I missing out on something by not using CJL?

I'm not sure if you mean SCK, since CJL doesn't dump anything but your dps. It can be used at a very advanced level but only a dozen or so WW in the world will be able to do so.

If you mean SCK then it's good to dump with it if you just used BoK, likely because of combo breaker. CJL is not a "dump" spell.

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That's not at all the same, not even kind of close. Immolate is an active ability that does damage and has other applications.

The mastery is a newly added passive that says doesn't add anything to the rotation aside from forcing us to play a certain way.

I loved using Rising Sun Kick, pooling my chi with double Jabs then dropping 2 blackout kicks for heavy burst damage. The new mastery takes most of the 'choice' out of my rotation.

You can still pool chi, you just have to plan it out farther ahead. Pooling Chi isn't a "choice" if you want to do max damage, it's what you need to do. There aren't many actual choices when it comes to getting the most out of a class or spec.

To say that mastery forces us to play a certain way, but an ability like Immolate doesn't is crazy. You have to use immolate a certain way to get the most out of it, so it dictates part of your rotation. All classes and specs have a rotation that they're "forced" to do in order to do the most damage. The only "choice" is whether or not you're willing to do what you need to.

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So with the shift to Serenity for the time being, does this change haste to be more valuable due to the serenity window? I'm trying to mess around with stat balancing but without a working SimC its hard to gauge. If you have the stat budget (I'm 743-745 range ilvl) would it be more dps to try and fit 2 FoF in the serenity window by focusing on haste to achieve that?

Short answer, no, just balance your stats. Longer answer is that it's easy to get the haste needed to get the CD benefit of double FoF but very difficult to get the haste to fit two full FoF outside of procs and bloodlust.

[Pipboi]

To say that mastery forces us to play a certain way, but an ability like Immolate doesn't is crazy. You have to use immolate a certain way to get the most out of it, so it dictates part of your rotation. All classes and specs have a rotation that they're "forced" to do in order to do the most damage. The only "choice" is whether or not you're willing to do what you need to.

I heavily disagree. Immolate is an active ability on your action bar that has a timer, does damage over time, and has other applications. You throw it on the target and the only time you have to worry about it again is when the timer runs out.

Monk mastery passively dictates a mandatory rotation and must be monitored with every button you press. That being said, you can have your opinion, and I can wholeheartedly disagree with it.

[PinDrop]

I heavily disagree. Immolate is an active ability on your action bar that has a timer, does damage over time, and has other applications. You throw it on the target and the only time you have to worry about it again is when the timer runs out.

Monk mastery passively dictates a mandatory rotation and must be monitored with every button you press. That being said, you can have your opinion, and I can wholeheartedly disagree with it.

The mastery is not the only thing limiting your rotation. The energy cost of Tiger Palm, the chi cost of other abilities, as well as their cooldowns already dictate your rotation pretty heavily. If the mastery didn't exist you would still use FoF, WDP, and RSK on cooldown, meaning the only choice you would have takes place between their use, and there isn't much choice there regardless of mastery. Instead of TP>BOK>TP>BOK you could TP>TP>BOK>BOK, I suppose. If you find that degree of choice preferable, then you are entitled to your opinion, but I think it makes little difference the way the spec has been mechanically designed for Legion, regardless of the mastery.

[Shoeboots]

That's not at all the same, not even kind of close. Immolate is an active ability that does damage and has other applications.

The mastery is a newly added passive that says doesn't add anything to the rotation aside from forcing us to play a certain way.

I loved using Rising Sun Kick, pooling my chi with double Jabs then dropping 2 blackout kicks for heavy burst damage. The new mastery takes most of the 'choice' out of my rotation.

I'm sorry you're not digging the new windwalker, but your reply is irrational. You said the mastery is a passive that doesn't do anything and then in then same sentence you expressed disdain for what it does. Chi Orbit is a passive that does nothing for Gameplay. WW mastery is clearly not that. It objectively affects what buttons you push. So I get that you don't like what it does, which is too bad and I feel for y'all. But it clearly affects gameplay. In fact, it's the effect that you don't seem to like.

At the end of the day, Legion WW is not the spec I would have preferred to see either. I really liked the old SEF and also liked banking chi. But the new WW is also really great and imo it's one of the more compelling melee specs across the entire game. I angrily played it in beta till about lvl 103 when I realized it's a really great spec. I hope you give it a shot and find the same thing.

[Pipboi]

I'm sorry you're not digging the new windwalker, but your reply is irrational. You said the mastery is a passive that doesn't do anything and then in then same sentence you expressed disdain for what it does. Chi Orbit is a passive that does nothing for Gameplay. WW mastery is clearly not that. It objectively affects what buttons you push. So I get that you don't like what it does, which is too bad and I feel for y'all. But it clearly affects gameplay. In fact, it's the effect that you don't seem to like.

At the end of the day, Legion WW is not the spec I would have preferred to see either. I really liked the old SEF and also liked banking chi. But the new WW is also really great and imo it's one of the more compelling melee specs across the entire game. I angrily played it in beta till about lvl 103 when I realized it's a really great spec. I hope you give it a shot and find the same thing.

It's unfortunate that you were unable to comprehend my post. I didn't say the Mastery doesn't do anything. I said it doesn't add anything to the rotation. That's quite a bit different from "it doesn't do anything". Which is my opinion of course.

[FayrenPickpocket]

For PvP, it does matter. It staggers your burst capacity to take advantage of your mastery, as you'll have to weave in a Tiger Palm for every BoK.

SEF is terrible in PvP, the clones just get frost nova'd/feared with no way to break them out of CC unlike the WW who can trinket or previously nimble brew before they took that away.

You could TEB and dump a bunch of BoK's with serenity and do significant burst. That's all gone now in PvP and your only burst lies in using FoF coupled with a stun, which is a channeled skill and thus interruptible.

FoF cannot be interrupted with an interrupt, it has to be a hard CC. You can still see a tremendous amount of burst by choosing RJW to alternate with BoK instead of a TP, energizing brew, and the new serenity yet. It still very much exists. If you pick serenity, you don't have to worry about SEF.

You could pick up CJL cancelling too to take advantage of the mastery too.

[Shoeboots]

Monk mastery passively dictates a mandatory rotation and must be monitored with every button you press. That being said, you can have your opinion, and I can wholeheartedly disagree with it.

Again, I think this is irrational. If the mastery doesn't exist you have a much more inflexible priority rotation to follow. If anything, this mastery makes you add a bit of variety for the sake of avoiding a double BoK. I mean, just look at this thread. People are discussing different ideas on what to push because of the mastery. So again, I'm sorry you're not into it. But it's not forcing a mandatory rotation. It's the only thing keeping us from a mandatory rotation. Without it we're basically ret pallies: exact same rotation no matter what in all scenarios. I levelled Ret and WW side by side on beta and found WW to be so much more interesting and exciting, even if pallies are my hands down favourite thematically. WW just feels unpredictable, even if it really isn't. It's this extra layer of "ok so I know what button I should push next but I can't because of mastery so what else should I push?" And sure. It ultimately boils down to a priority list. But it's a list that is slightly more complex and at least for me that makes it more fun.

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It's unfortunate that you were unable to comprehend my post. I didn't say the Mastery doesn't do anything. I said it doesn't add anything to the rotation. That's quite a bit different from "it doesn't do anything". Which is my opinion of course.

Ok but this seems like semantics to me. I could edit my previous post to say 'add' instead of 'do' and the point would stand.

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I think you're just not into windwalker and that's fine. I'm just suggesting that it's not a bad spec simply because it's not for you.