As We've Been Saying, California's Minimum Wage Rises Increase Unemployment

[Vanyali]

It's a tough one. Everyone needs a reasonable chance to earn a living wage, but it places a burden on small businesses.

The answer probably lies higher up in the food chain.

Most of the problem for small businesses lie with large chain stores that out-bulk purchase them, meaning they have lower overheads. Wage actually factors very little into it.

Those caring about small businesses would be better served to avoid large chains and put heavy restrictions on them than to fight the minimum wage, as large chain stores can absorb the minimum wage, but chose instead to be taxpayer subsidized in large amounts.

[kail]

So I'll play the devil's advocate: minimum wage increased directly bumped up unemployment (by 0.2%). Sure that makes sense, retail stores, fast food restaurants, factories, etc. will cut back a bit as their expense rises. But if that means that the lowest paid workers (which outnumber the higher paid workers) can live "comfortably" without having to struggle for rent, I'd say that's an amazing trade!

This is also foregoing the higher potential consumption and circulation of money because the lower bracket workers have more money to spend. Have stores experienced higher foot traffic? Was there a need to increase their product's prices? Too many question in that article that is left unanswered.

Again, I agree with the logic that higher wage = less positions. But please see the benefit surplus as well.

[spinner981]

Typical right wing nonsense, you point out that it increased the same 0.2% nationwide as well, well how come since it didnt get increased everywhere so that right there proves how totally full of shit the right wing claims are, as always i might add.

Just spew out some nonsense that have no connection to reality. same level of connection as the sun was behind a cloud at 3pm in the afternoon so it will not snow on xmas this year. really thats the level of debate and arguments the far right brings out. no connection what so ever yet they keep thinking if we repeat the nonsense it will some who become truth

Let's take an extreme example. Say that suddenly the minimum wage was 100 dollars an hour. Would you expect anything to change? What would it be? Would you expect prices to go up? Employment levels to go down? Hours to get cut? Where are you getting the extra 90 some dollars an hour to pay your minimum wage workers? Because it has to come from somewhere. They can't just magic it out of thin air. Something has to get cut back to compensate. Thinking otherwise is simply naive.

So I'll play the devil's advocate: minimum wage increased directly bumped up unemployment (by 0.2%). Sure that makes sense, retail stores, fast food restaurants, factories, etc. will cut back a bit as their expense rises. But if that means that the lowest paid workers (which outnumber the higher paid workers) can live "comfortably" without having to struggle for rent, I'd say that's an amazing trade!

This is also foregoing the higher potential consumption and circulation of money because the lower bracket workers have more money to spend. Have stores experienced higher foot traffic? Was there a need to increase their product's prices? Too many question in that article that is left unanswered.

Again, I agree with the logic that higher wage = less positions. But please see the benefit surplus as well.

Unless the employers are simply cutting hours and laying people off. You might make double what you did, or you might make the same just in less hours, or you might make none at all.

[Theinquisition]

And if you posit a theory (in the academic sense) then you also damn well back it up otherwise you get laughed out of town. What you are actually doing is propagandizing.

No, I was posting common sense that shouldn't need page upon page of horseshit.

I mean, do we need sources to prove supply and demand theory? or that the sky is blue?

It's common sense, 15$ an hour really isn't much in the scheme of things. I contest that just because say...small business workers are making more that they will spend at small business, there isn't any proof that will happen.

Small business has a rough go in the U.S. because prices are generally higher at mom and pop shops than it is in places such as wal-mart, due primarily to economies of scale. If Wal-mart buys 1 million widgets, they will get a larger bulk discount than a small shop would get if they buy 2000.

So...small business workers make more money prices will go up even more, they will shop where items are cheaper, places like Wal-mart. Large business can absorb change much better than small business.

So in short, I say that the premise that small business will stay relatively the same is faulty logic.

Now this is my theroy, its not a unheard of theroy, if you have a compelling argument against it, I'd like to hear it.

[kail]

It's a tough one. Everyone needs a reasonable chance to earn a living wage, but it places a burden on small businesses.

The answer probably lies higher up in the food chain.

True and I would feel for small businesses. I believe even New York planned to have variable minimum wages depending on the amount of staff the business employs (i.e. McDonalds would abide by higher minimum wage but Mom & Pop shops would be exempt).

IMO though, if their profit margin is so low that an increase of their handful of employees' wages would net a loss...then they were probably not doing so well to begin with.

[Theinquisition]

Clearly California is doing something wrong!

Seriously, I wish my state would just leave the union, and let that parasite of a political party, the GoP, get their funding for their asinine policies elsewhere.

#CalExit2016

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I was laughing. It was a good chunk of bullshit.

Guy from SF doesn't agree..wow what a shock.

Ask yourself.....why are apartments in SF so damned expensive? You don't think leftist policies have anything to do with it?

[Bollocks]

You probably should have read it instead of just jumping on the bandwagon. California unemployment rates matched the entire nations. Meaning it was likely something else that caused it not minimum wage.

California is an outlier though. The BLS says that the following states suffered from a statistically significant increase in unemployment rate:


- Colorado
- Nevada
- Oregon
- California
- Maine
- South Dakota

Most of these were already having trends in increse in unemployment rates from months ago, in particullary Colorado the one that had the biggest increase in unemployment rate. However in this case California suffers an increase in unemployment rate for the first time in what 6 years? Not saying there is a direct relation with the hike in minimum wage, but its something worth taking into account.

[GennGreymane]

Guy from SF doesn't agree..wow what a shock.

Ask yourself.....why are apartments in SF so damned expensive? You don't think leftist policies have anything to do with it?

Because its the real estate market? Popular places to live always are more expensive. Look at a Manhattan apartment vs a freakin manor in Upstate NY. Or just to keep it simple, an Apartment in Upstate NY and one in Manhattan. Combine that with limited space, population density(people tend to stick around), location in general, etc, etc.

Thats pure capitalism.

[Vanyali]

Guy from SF doesn't agree..wow what a shock.

Ask yourself.....why are apartments in SF so damned expensive? You don't think leftist policies have anything to do with it?

Mostly google, actually.

Google pays a lot, which means that prices go up because they employ a lot of people.

hell, their BUS ALONE raises real estate prices:

http://io9.gizmodo.com/yes-the-googl...n-f-1510968923

http://www.sfgate.com/entertainment/...ne-2539995.php

I'd be really careful with "leftists did it!" because that's usually a sign of "i don't know why, blame the opposite politics!".

[Orbitus]

Insult the person instead create a argument, sadly, I expected more out of you lil joe.

Well, when you argument was thoroughly destroyed, it is just easier to insult you, which he wasn't doing anyway. You are looking for an argument where one isn't. Not really surprising though.

[Bollocks]

So I'll play the devil's advocate: minimum wage increased directly bumped up unemployment (by 0.2%). Sure that makes sense, retail stores, fast food restaurants, factories, etc. will cut back a bit as their expense rises. But if that means that the lowest paid workers (which outnumber the higher paid workers) can live "comfortably" without having to struggle for rent, I'd say that's an amazing trade!

This is also foregoing the higher potential consumption and circulation of money because the lower bracket workers have more money to spend. Have stores experienced higher foot traffic? Was there a need to increase their product's prices? Too many question in that article that is left unanswered.

Again, I agree with the logic that higher wage = less positions. But please see the benefit surplus as well.

Ironically the food industry did not suffer. It was mostly the construction section, despite growth in that sector at the same time.

[PACOX]

Gotta keep those wages low show people can't afford to look for better jobs, amirite?

[Theinquisition]

We've already seen it happen though. I'm also not saying there should never be minimum wage increases, I think in some communities it defintely does make sense. But that varies on a local basis and if we push too hard *coughcough15anhourcoughcough* it's going to create a lot of new problems.

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Oh God, yes, economists are horrible for giving advice on these types of things.

I know right.

I mean...hmmmm, whose ideas should be more valid, some random rabid leftist on the internet who's probably eating cheerios in his underwear in moms basement

or a world renowned economist....
hmmmmmm

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Because its the real estate market? Popular places to live always are more expensive. Look at a Manhattan apartment vs a freakin manor in Upstate NY. Or just to keep it simple, an Apartment in Upstate NY and one in Manhattan. Combine that with limited space, population density(people tend to stick around), location in general, etc, etc.

Thats pure capitalism.

You don't think restrictions in rent control, and expansion have anything to do with it?

It actually has alot to due with city ordinance that doesn't allow the majority of the city to have buildings higher than 40ft. Which stifles growth.

Wonder who made those ordinances.

[Vanyali]

You don't think restrictions in rent control, and expansion have anything to do with it?

Seriously, if you're gonna use SF as an example look up the google effect. Google has straight-fucked many parts of SF.

[GennGreymane]

I know right.

I mean...hmmmm, whose ideas should be more valid, some random rabid leftist on the internet who's probably eating cheerios in his underwear in moms basement

or a world renowned economist....
hmmmmmm

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You don't think restrictions in rent control, and expansion have anything to do with it?

You dont think regular capitalism is responsible for popular places becoming expensive as hell? Take away any restriction and I am sure they would still be expensive. This is because of limited space, and people wanting to live there. Its supply and demand at its most basic. It applies everywhere. Places that people want to move to go up in price. Its you once again taking one factor and making it the sole one when there are dozens of reasons prices of real estate explode in value.

[Theinquisition]

Gotta keep those wages low show people can't afford to look for better jobs, amirite?

actually, there are quite a few valid arguments for eliminating the minimum wage altogether. Lower wages means more people are hired which means shortages of labor, which means people who are more productive will get paid higher.

[Feel The Power]

I'm more curious as to who this "us" and "we" the OP is talking about.

[Theinquisition]

You dont think regular capitalism is responsible for popular places becoming expensive as hell? Take away any restriction and I am sure they would still be expensive. This is because of limited space, and people wanting to live there. Its supply and demand at its most basic. It applies everywhere. Places that people want to move to go up in price. Its you once again taking one factor and making it the sole one when there are dozens of reasons prices of real estate explode in value.

I think you wrote this before I editted a important piece of information.

Supply demand would wirk fine here if the city allowed vertical growth.

Which by large and whole it doesn't, due to city restrictions.

Wonder who made those...

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I'm more curious as to who this "us" and "we" the OP is talking about.

Don't like pronouns?

[Vanyali]

actually, there are quite a few valid arguments for eliminating the minimum wage altogether. Lower wages means more people are hired which means shortages of labor, which means people who are more productive will get paid higher.

Business don't just hire people to be nice. They already operate at the lowest minimum required to increase profits.

"hey, we're making more money! we don't need more workers to keep up with demand, but let's hire 10 more while not increasing workload!" said no one, ever.

[Theinquisition]

Seriously, if you're gonna use SF as an example look up the google effect. Google has straight-fucked many parts of SF.

google is a part of it for sure.

But...not all...look at the picture, the areas in yellow mean that you can't build higher than 40ft.