Patch 7.03, the end of master loot pugs?

[Cheze]

it's not just that you can't trade ilvl-upgrade things, though; it's that now if I'm in that situation, I have to decide which of the potentially several people who want the thing is gonna get it, and deal with the feelings than some or all of them may catch, and/or pressure from the group to decide a particular way.

Which isn't necessarily that different from what goes on in an ML pub group now, but at least right now it's possible to group with MLs who are capable of dealing with that stuff reasonably. If I join a group via openraid for example I can pretty easily see whether the leader is a shitheel; it's hard(er) to tell whether every member of the group is.

[Tharkkun]

The good aspects of this change far outweigh the negatives. Great change. Most of the people moaning about this are probably those who abused Master Looter (at the expense of pug members) in the first place. Mind you, the few times in which I have been ninja'd, the raid leaders at the time were so full of themselves and their own self importance, the idea that they are the ones at fault and getting what they deserve is probably incomprehensible.

You know it must be a EU thing then. Because it's been quite a few years since I met a raid leader in pugs that acted that way. During guild raids where we've pugged 2-3 people or up to 10 on alt raids we've never once ninja'd loot. It happens once and people act like it's the norm for pugs which it isn't.

9 times out of 10 a piece of loot is ninja'd is due to players not understanding the rules when they join the group. Is it really the fault of the raid leader when they say Tier Reserved, Mainspec/Offspec and they don't get to roll on tier? Don't join the group if you can't read.

[Djriff]

I don't mind it for pugging.

Usually if I get an item I don't need I link it to chat, request rolls, inspect people then give it away.

[Nize]

[QUOTE=Wries;41517984]-snip-/QUOTE]

I'll add a big one to your list.

-The loot is tied to the character. You can bring an army of Demon Hunters and Druids and no mail/cloth/plate will ever be wasted.

-People can snipe out off-spec gear.

[Marrilaife]

You know it must be a EU thing then.

Maybe.

Just from my experience (I'm on EU).

Monk makes a pug "tier and killrogg staff reserved". Then proceeds to ninja the fist weapon from zakuun and drop the group, raid disbands.

Rogue makes a pug "some rogue gear reserved". A dk joins and asks: are tiers reserved? Rogue: no. Then proceeds to take tier helm from kormorok, dk rages at ninja, drama ensues, half the raid leaves, group disbands after.

But that's not the only problem with ML in pugs.

I've also had a pug with ms > os rule and ML gave tank ring to a dps dk who rolled on it even though I rolled on it on my tank.

I've had a pug where the ML gave the archi trinket token that was the pala / priest / warlock to a hunter. Only through the good will of the hunter I got it for my priest.

Generally if my guild was doing alt runs I joined them as much as possible, I got a tad bit bored in the end of HFC and wanted to gear a few more alts and my experiences with pugging became only worse and worse, normal hfc pugs were not as tragic (and often even personal loot), but in hfc hc greed poured out of every orifice of pug leader, most pugs were "long list of stuff reserved", not just "1 item" like some people tend to claim. Usual thing would be stuff like: mage pug leader makes group "manno + archi ring upgrade 725+ link ring + curve or no inv, pof edict class trinket tier chest reserved" (so basically everything he can use).

[Deleted]

PL was a great addition to this game and I have no issue with it becoming the true standard.

- It drops more loot to offset the fact that you might not be able to "target" one specific item.
- No issue bringing a bunch of classes that all want the same type of gear.
- It practically guarantees no drama at all

Other mmo's have had this. It's been great. It's just the old dogs who can't learn to deal with it. During 6.2 it was THE best loot method for a group gearing up, but wasn't enough to persuade some, and it of course wasn't a good match for ninja group leaders. I'm glad Blizzard continues pushing it. I want it to eventually stick. It's essentially the key to end all loot drama in WoW.


I too saw it as an issue. But thing is, you can *technically* only trade it away if it's worse than yours. I know ilvl isn't a good measure and I can see it being potentially an issue with say trinkets. But we'll have to wait and see.

ML still was better in multiple ways then PL, focus on people with most op (class)trinkets, tier sets first and being guarntied some tier pieces will drop. so Pof goes to a mage instead of say a ele shammy or spriest as example. giving loot out acroding to what will help progress the most which isnt possible with PL.

[Niwes]

i dunno, its been all of... a day or two of me raiding with the new "Personal Loot" pugs... and I'm not sure its an improvement.

I havent had issues with ninjas in.... years....

but with this new system, as soon as loot drops, raidchat is flooded with "Hey you guys, can i get all that gears!?! I just started and you really seem to be doing good so I should get it, right ?"

basically turning personal loot into an auto-distributed masterloot, and distributing the grief onto anyone that wins loot and is too selfish to give it away to others.

if i lead any pugs in the next expac, i can certainly see myself including a "no begging, just offering" rule about loot in the description resulting in a swift and immediate raidkick.

as your latest sentence already stated, that system will after a short time regulate emself. ofc in the beginning there will be drama, but after a short amount of time, ppl will get kicked when they begging too much, and standard "meta" rules will apply. as always. thats the reason why, in the end, that system will be way better. bc in ML the rule that became established is being an asshole and ninja or "1453536 items reserved".

[ItsTiddles]

ML still was better in multiple ways then PL, focus on people with most op (class)trinkets, tier sets first and being guarntied some tier pieces will drop. so Pof goes to a mage instead of say a ele shammy or spriest as example. giving loot out acroding to what will help progress the most which isnt possible with PL.

Most people that do that, in my experience, are guilds, which have the option of masterloot. Pugs don't care about prioritizing a trinket for a mage, when that mage isn't them.

[Marrilaife]

Most people that do that, in my experience, are guilds,

Add to that mythic guilds, because guilds who raid normal & hc rarely have a loot council knowledgeable enough what is BIS for every class and spec and ML just asks interested people to /roll for dropped item then assigns it. It serves as something akin to a middle man in "need before greed" system to prevent missclicks, too hasty disenchants and extreme greed.

[Deleted]

Most people that do that, in my experience, are guilds, which have the option of masterloot. Pugs don't care about prioritizing a trinket for a mage, when that mage isn't them.

that post was me queoting about pl being best to gear up. i meant that for a group gearing up and not really pugs.

[Deleted]

The drama will be really high when somebody inspects you and finds your PL gear you just got is of no use to you, but big upgrade for them.

And there will be a market, I can see some people doing raids that they don't need gear from just to sell their pieces. Well, it's probably the lesser of 2 evils, although Master Loot with a proper policing system in place that bans ninja idiots and returns items to players is what we needed.

Why?

You cant force anyone to give you items they won fair and square.

You can ask, be polite, and accept the answer.

Dont be a loot whore.

In this case noone is stealing items which is for the better.

[Wries]

ML still was better in multiple ways then PL, focus on people with most op (class)trinkets, tier sets first and being guarntied some tier pieces will drop. so Pof goes to a mage instead of say a ele shammy or spriest as example. giving loot out acroding to what will help progress the most which isnt possible with PL.

You're describing a very high end scenario, though. And ML will still be possible for a guild group where quick progression is the preference. In F&F guilds and pugs, everyone wants a shot at a bit of loot.

[ItsTiddles]

that post was me queoting about pl being best to gear up. i meant that for a group gearing up and not really pugs.

Ah I apologize then And I agree, guild master loot is better for raid teams. I would hate to have someone show up every once in a while win lots of gear from PL and then not log in again for a month.

[Gadzooks]

You simply shouldn't get to have that PoF that was mentioned when you can barely extract 3% DPS from it, while the poor mage next to you still with crafted trinket would have used it to way, way, way greater effect.

That "poor mage" can still get that item from you, as PL loot can be traded for a time after it's won.

No problems here.

[Halicia]

as your latest sentence already stated, that system will after a short time regulate emself. ofc in the beginning there will be drama, but after a short amount of time, ppl will get kicked when they begging too much, and standard "meta" rules will apply. as always. thats the reason why, in the end, that system will be way better. bc in ML the rule that became established is being an asshole and ninja or "1453536 items reserved".

my personal problem though... is that the main reason i raid with guildies is to AVOID THE !@#$ING DRAMA.

in previous tiers, the opportunity to reserve boe's/etc provided an incentive to occasionally lead/carry a group of pugs.... but as those incentives get removed, I'm left with little incentive to actually LEAD, and only given a limited incentive to bother joining a pug. (that being a friend/guildie's already doing one, and I feel like helping them out)

People are gonna do what they're gonna do, but I think that "good pugs" are a productive asset to the community in a way that LFR doesnt provide.

I'm also slightly concerned that if the PL droprates are too high, ML'ing in guilds will encourage/require the usage of PL and then have the ML collect and redistribute the loot. Basically rendering the actual ML system pointless.

[Girrag]

That's good. They should disable chat next. Only allow things like "stop", "attack this", "stay there" and so on.

[nekobaka]

I wonder how many who was unwilling to before would step up to the plate to lead groups now. One less thing to manage as a group leader.

[Cynep]

So, the reception is mostly positive I believe? I even tried a PL raid evening with my guild to see if it's worth to switch to PL entirely; not sure yet. I don't pug raids, but I believe there will be less drama in pugs.

For negatives, guild alliances and other cross-realm raid teams are hit the hardest. Trialing out-of guild recruits will become inconvenient.
Also, there was a method of running HC lootselling carries when the sellers had ~15 strong carriers (already loot saved), took several buyers and filled the rest with unsaved randoms who only looted from their coins. These randoms won't be able to use these free fast runs. Also, people who were creating raids for that one item they needed probably won't bother anymore. Did I miss anything?


Also, a serious question: are there more or fewer raids in group finder? I don't pug raids so I can't know. /shy

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I had no problems with people reserving items. They usually put in the work to build the group when no one else wanted to and the players that joined that raid knew the condition upon joining.

This is how I obtained betrayer of humanity back in LK. Sure it took me a few hours to form the group and like 5 more hours for the raid, but when Betrayer dropped it was all mine and no one had a problem with it.

Fair start of the run reserves no problem. The problem is bullshit reserves. They go like this:

8:00pm group starts to form. Nothing said of reserve.
9:45pm group makes its first boss kill. 2 people leave, 3 join up as the group pulls trash.
10:45pm group makes boss kill 4, a big trinket boss for casters, so 6 casters bail. As they pull to boss 5 more come in.
11:45pm group gets to boss 8. Right before the pull "BTW melee that stuck around.. this melee trinket is on reserve"
11:46pm 9 melee leave the group that were in it since 8:00pm for the trinket (time wasted)
12:15am group refills this time with the reserve tag so mostly casters come in not needing the trinket.
12:25am boss dies, leader disbands group (if it drops or not)

[Jerichofr]

Another step towards negating players ability to alter someone else's experience.

And this is totally awesome!

You are correct.

The players brought this upon themselves, and it is glorious.