Can Islam And Western Society Ever Peacefully Co-exist?

[May90]

*facedesk*

Dude we are discussing Islam here and whether its compatible with Western Society... who gives a flying fukk whats written in the Bible, its utterly irrlevant to this discussion.

Im measuring Western LAWS against Muslim core principles.

The Old Testament is utterly irrelvant to that discussion.

If u want to say that all religions suck then ofc i will agree with you... but this thread isnt discussing that.

It is relevant. New/Old Testament is not all there is to Christianity, and one/two version(s) of Quran is not all there is to Islam. If Christianity has violent elements and can coexist with Western Society, then Islam having violent elements doesn't prevent it from coexisting with Western Society either. Religions evolve, people following them, interpreting them and preaching them evolve.

It is all not set in stone, it is dynamic. If you ask, say, "Can ISIS coexist peacefully with Western Society?", then my answer will be, "No". If you ask, "Can Islam in the verse followed by Muhammad Ali coexist peacefully with Western Society?", then the answer is pretty obvious.

[eschatological]

I'll just give a simple answer, coming from a combat vet. No, there is no way that the two can co-exist. Some play the long game("coexist" and then convert) and others the short (terrorists and killing), but a core fundamental element of islam is to either convert or destroy all those who do not practice the islamic faith. So no, they will never be able to truly be a peace between the two, as the values are simply diametrically opposed.

This imperative to proselytize exists in Christianity too. It was the central push of the Inquisition, who interpreted it as literally as radicalized Muslims interpret the Quran today.


BTW, Islam co-existed relatively (for the time) peacefully with the West for hundreds of years. Until the West went through a Renaissance and then an Enlightenment, and then decided that meant conquering the whole world to bring civilization to the more "savage" races.

[Wildtree]

*facedesk*

Dude we are discussing Islam here and whether its compatible with Western Society... who gives a flying fukk whats written in the Bible, its utterly irrlevant to this discussion.

Im measuring Western LAWS against Muslim core principles.

The Old Testament is utterly irrelvant to that discussion.

If u want to say that all religions suck then ofc i will agree with you... but this thread isnt discussing that.

I said NEW Testament...
How can you understand complex causality if you can't even read a short forums post correctly.
And how is this relevant?
Because we have Christian extremists even still today slaughtering in the name of the bible.. But not all 2.2 billion Christians follow the scripture literally.
Much like we have Muslim extremists who are slaughter in the name of the Quran.. But not all 1.6 billion Muslims follow the scripture literally.

Further more, I told you that already. You've just ignored it..
We have ample historic proof that Islam and Western Society can in fact, and do live in fact together for hundreds of years.
The timeline of Islam's existence is roughly 1400 years. And most of that time, we managed to live in peace with and among each other.

You're Islamophobic, like many others here too.

[Jaigar]

There's two things that make this difficult for me to discuss. First is a form of confirmation bias brought around by the media. For example, hundreds of people have been murdered in Chicago this year, but you won't hear about it unless it was a do contraversal police shooting or anything that could be used to push a political agenda. The data I would love to see is homocide rates of different demographics in both the us and western countries. The stories I see in the news are likely not a fair representation.

The second issue for me is the circles of religious belief. In Christianity, you have your outer circle, the moderates who goto church on holidays, then you have the fundamentalists whom are your typical bible thumping crowd. Then the dominionists, whom are even more extreme in the South and believe the US is God's country, end times, etc and will use political means to push their religious agenda. Then you have your most inner circle, the radicals who will goto any length and use terrorism. The outer circles protect the inner makng it difficult to attack bad behavior (for example, Westboro).

It's similar in Isalm, but the number of Islamists (similar to dominionists) and fundamentalists are significantly higher. Islamists will use political means to spread the influence of Islam, but won't directly engage in extreme actions like terrorism.

[antelope591]

It obviously can because it already has...look at pictures from Afghanistan and other ME countries from the 1950's and 60's. It looks pretty much the same as every other western country at that time. Then the fundamentalists and extremists took over. But at the end of the day "Islam" is just a tool. To think all Muslims automatically believe in all the principles that have been twisted by extremists is pretty silly to say the least.

[Dandine]

Yes. The same way that we manage to have Catholics and Protestants living alongside one another.

That still causes tension in parts of Ireland, so I wouldn't say they live peacefully alongside each other! Still many arguments.

Islam would have to change a lot, like many variations of Christianity have over the years, before it could be compatible with Western society, gosh even to be compatible with far Eastern like China or Japan. Ye olde Christianity wasn't compatible with modern society, Islam is a bit behind in adapting to changes in the world, especially on human rights, animal rights and womens rights.

[Cerus]

This imperative to proselytize exists in Christianity too. It was the central push of the Inquisition, who interpreted it as literally as radicalized Muslims interpret the Quran today.


BTW, Islam co-existed relatively (for the time) peacefully with the West for hundreds of years. Until the West went through a Renaissance and then an Enlightenment, and then decided that meant conquering the whole world to bring civilization to the more "savage" races.

Um - you're a mod posting about religion in a religious thread. Did I miss something?

Forbidden Topics
...keep in mind the post contents/subjects that are not allowed:
Religion

[Polyxo]

Islamic Conservatism as it is today is largely a modern phenomenon. Middle Eastern countries were generally on par with catholic counties in terms of western attitudes as recently as the 1980s. The entire concept of Islamic fundamentalism as the sects that it is today didn't exist until the late 1800s/early 1900s.

The point is, Islam changed in terms of demographics and representative sects. It can change again.

[Radaney]

Currently there are 1000s of years in the past that say no and currently not many years if any that show a good example of the answer yes.

[Deleted]

With some changes to Islamic thought and doctrine, maybe. As it stands, no. Modern Islam is too right-wing conservative and presents too many bigoted ideas as good or righteous. Even where Muslims are thought to be integrating, surveys reveal that attitudes towards Western democracy and freedoms are still rather reactionary and that they would prefer to live under a more Islamic system.

That said, I don't think Christianity is peacefully co-existing in a lot of cases either (see: America/Russia/Africa). It is a problem for any religious adherent to advance with the times, when they are attempting to follow a restrictive old book that is supposedly the literal word of god/gods. It's the job of the leaders in the denominations/sects to lead by example and help them reconcile faith with liberalism, but that doesn't seem to be the direction Islam is heading.

[Theodarzna]

That would depend on Islam,

The default belief in a "Last and Final Revelation," and of Islam as a also a legal code does challenge that ability to do so. The belief in a world caliphate and a political and institutional rule by Muslims or an inherent right of Muslims to dominate the planet cannot co-exist with anyone.

That has to be gotten out of them by force or be peaceful means.

[Armiger]

Islamic ppl are mostly retarded, getting married with they´re own brothers and sisters or cousins is not that difficult to understand why they live a backward barbaric autistic culture, believing in a self claimed non existant god, and prophet who was murderer pedophile and rapist warlord, so you might understand why these ppl cant and will never be compatible with rich culture societies like the wester culture, where we do respect women, we do have free speech, no body will kill you for leaving religion, you wont be rock throwed to death for beign raped, where if u are a woman u dont need to cover your face and be ashamed for been a female. Christianism and Judaism where reformed long time ago, no body goes arround trying to re conquer the holy land and killing muslims just because you believe they are your enemy, it doesnt happen anymore, and thats becasue we have a republic we have democracy, (or not) but fairly enough not to be commanded by religious stupid believers, im not saying beliving in that fairy tail makes you a retarded potato, but kinda, even i u do belive in that the 90% of the ppl in wester culture are decent, they still have free will they know that harming ppl for not beign a religios person, or not praying to the same god doesnt mean you have to kill them. Now in europe as we have seen these days they are gonna keep dying cuz muslims are muslims before anything else, they dont care about your culture, they belive they are ambassadors and they came to europe to spread the word and the only solution to the muslim problem is not allowing them to come, unless they prove they are morally fine and healthy. My ancestors fought muslims for about 700 years until they sent them away from our land, we know how they are, we know how much damage they can create, even when my ppl saved europe 3 times from the muslim plague they are introducing them for free into our countries, and that my friends is called stupidity you can argue all you want, but the proof of what im saying is there in history books so the answer to your question is simple, they dont, and they will never be.


[Infracted]

[NineSpine]

Oh so this is one of those threads where we pretend the west hasn't spent the last hundred years fucking with the Middle East.

[Tatsujin]

In the literal sense, yes. Islam exists, and Western society exists, but the topic was about PEACEFUL co-existence. Muslims need to submit to secular authority but refuse to, it's pretty much that simple.

There is 1.6 billion Muslims on earth. We're living peacefully, there is well over a hundred thousand alone in Chicago and its suburbs. But, it only takes one Muslim, or someone who claims to be a Muslim, to nuke the entire other 1.6 billion Muslims and the Media enjoys to blow it up like no tomorrow.

There is so much hate on these forums it is just unbelievable.....

Take a notebook, put down all your questions, go into a Mosque and sit down with a shakih and ask them the questions. Be open minded, otherwise if you go in with a closed mind then you're practically not going to understand or learn anything.

Of course, the other option people can take is to stay ignorant or/and arrogant when it comes to Islam.

[Jotaux]

Oh so this is one of those threads where we pretend the west hasn't spent the last hundred years fucking with the Middle East.

Well its definitely given extremists something to rally behind.

[Tyrianth]

Islam seems to co-exist in my area. I work with quite a few Muslim co-workers, all very nice people!

[TheMediator]

ake a notebook, put down all your questions, go into a Mosque and sit down with a shakih and ask them the questions. Be open minded, otherwise if you go in with a closed mind then you're practically not going to understand or learn anything.

I already know how Islam works, I've talked with Muslims before. I also already know how a jaded, unhappy, and disgruntled mind works. I know that when you put the puzzle pieces together, you get a big BOOM.

There are millions of employed Muslims. The problem is that in an economic system such as capitalism, some people WILL end up disgruntled. For most rational minds, they're able to adapt to the stress of the situation. But when you combine a need to bring honor to one's family in combination with a religious world view that convinces you that the world is out of align and needs radical realignment, you get martyrdom instead of a stressful job search.

[NineSpine]

I already know how Islam works, I've talked with Muslims before. I also already know how a jaded, unhappy, and disgruntled mind works. I know that when you put the puzzle pieces together, you get a big BOOM.

There are millions of employed Muslims. The problem is that in an economic system such as capitalism, some people WILL end up disgruntled. For most rational minds, they're able to adapt to the stress of the situation. But when you combine a need to bring honor to one's family in combination with a religious world view that convinces you that the world is out of align and needs radical realignment, you get martyrdom instead of a stressful job search.

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Notions of familial honor and religious unhappiness with the earthly situation are not exclusive to Islam, and those notions are arguably stronger elsewhere. The reality is that the west spent 100 year fucking with the Middle East. It's that simple.

[NineSpine]

If Islamic cultures moderates like Judaism and Christianity have, yes. But they will need to have a "come to Mohammed" moment, through reformation, (re-)enlightenment, etc...

The majority of Muslims living in the West are not the problem. The problem places are Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Iran, UAE, etc... that export extremism(and oil) to the rest of the world.

You mean the parts of the Muslim world the west has spent the most time fucking with.

[Endus]

This kind of thread really isn't acceptable here; it's just going to encourage racism and religion-bashing, neither of which we allow. Locked.