Mafia #72: Heads of State. Game Thread

[Graeham]

How is volunteering for a lynch in anyway useful? It's literally a free NK to scum if you are town. It has to be one of the more ridiculous ideas that floats around these games. It's why lynching Cruelle was a bit stupid and just a bit obvious.

Also in my experience if you find that you spend most of the game defending yourself and your actions, and not actually engaging other people in what they're doing then you're doing something wrong, or are in fact scum.

Being hard to pin down as town isn't exactly great, I mean I'll give it to Dupti I think he played almost a perfect VT this game. He was active, vocal and had several of us thinking he may even be a TPR, he drew a NK for what I assume was scum feeling the same. It was very very good play.

What's more is that with the way this game has played out we're not going on "Well I think this person is scum, let's lynch." We're more at the point of "I think X, Y and Z are town, but cannot confirm A, B, C so let's lynch one of them." Therefore we don't need to pin anything to anyone to lynch them, we simply need to work out who is most likely to be town and then eliminate everyone else. With how the first few lynches have gone town are in a pretty strong position and this tactic should pay off.

It's useful for someone to sacrifice themselves in such circumstances because if they're sensing that they're being kept alive for the sake of a mislynch later in the game then it's better that they're lynched early on rather than when the stakes are higher and there's a greater risk of lasting damage being done. It seems like we go through this every other game though - and it's always the same arguments.

If you think truly think that I'm a terrible player and I'm dead weight then make a push to lynch me today. I'd be fond of that outcome for many reasons, not least because solidifying my alignment might actually allow for people to cast some doubt on the players who are blatantly patting each other on the back for being 'Town' in each other's eyes when, realistically, there's a pretty high chance that at least one of them could be scum counting on being able to cruise by without ever drawing any meaningful suspicion.

[Reticence]

I'd be fond of that outcome for many reasons, not least because solidifying my alignment might actually allow for people to cast some doubt on the players who are blatantly patting each other on the back for being 'Town' in each other's eyes when, realistically, there's a pretty high chance that at least one of them could be scum counting on being able to cruise by without ever drawing any meaningful suspicion.

Please specify for posterity which players you are referring to.

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Rey you forgot 1 major thing in your "if Ana is scum Listo most likely is also" thing. I'm 9/10 times left alive as town because I ALMOST never have a good record when I'm town. How many times am I left alive as lynch bait for end game because I can't defend myself without resorting to wifiom? How often do I die because I'm a threat?

1) For clarity, it's more like "Listo is probably scum either way, but if Ana is scum then Listo definitely is".

2) I didn't forget it. It just has nothing to do with anything I said. I never said anything about you being kept alive; I said you were a survivalist as scum. What I am specifically referring to here is your tendency to float above the thread but not actually post anything of real substance. But the moment someone throws suspicion your way or calls you out for something. you swoop in, attempt to bat away the concerns, and are gone the moment focus shifts to anyone else.

3) Was this supposed to be an argument in your favor? It's just another example of the WIFOM that you, yourself, have admitted to using. You might be being kept alive for an easy lynch later on, or there might just be higher-profile targets, or you might be scum. There's no way of knowing, which makes your defense fairly easy to ignore. Furthermore, the only reason you have to resort to WIFOM to defend yourself is because you haven't actually done anything that can be used as evidence in your favor.

[Kryllian]

Wow lots of productive chat while I was away. I'm coming out of that whole conversation with a lot of BS feeling towards Ana's role/claim. His whining about no one being around when he's here to debate/post was also blown out of the water with this interaction. His story isn't ringing true for me and at this point I have no concerns about putting him at L-1 with only a few hours left.

vote: Anakso

[Anakso]

. His whining about no one being around when he's here to debate/post was also blown out of the water with this interaction..

It's not though, like my active posting time hasn't changed at all, it's just this time you guys are all here too for some reason, but if you go back and compare time periods you'll see the time I said that is around the exact time this discussion has been happening in. I can't explain why everyone else wasn't here then and usually isn't here but all of a sudden is here, but my active time hasn't changed I'm still here at the same time. (between around 5pm and 10-11pm my time depending on when I sleep, otherwise it's sporadic posting depending on how much time/ability I have to check mmoc at work)

[Danner]

Just a reminder: Xanjori need to answer my question in #920 before the day ends. Because if Xanjori (or someone else for that matter) cannot conjure up a post where someone is theorizing that dupti is a TPR, I believe Xanjori just slipped by mixing up discussions in the mafia chat with discussions in the game chat. If that posts exists, then I apologize in advance for not paying enough attention and casting doubts on someone I until moments ago had a decent town read on.

Not terribly urgent, and I have a feeling Xanjori is going to need some time browsing through 47 pages of posts here. I'm happy to give him the night doing that, and will do the same myself.
But if I die tonight, I'd also appreciate if someone else holds him to that answer tomorrow. Please don't forget.

Also, can vouch for Anakso's bed hours. Anakso is always awake while I'm at work, but not after I go home. This is normal posting hours for Anakso.

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Forgot to strike "before the day ends" in that first sentence. It's not actually that urgent, and I changed my mind half-way when writing that post.

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Searching shows post #842 as a match to my request, but that post is by Xanjori. I'm looking for those "others" he mentions in #919.

[Kryllian]

I'm not disputing Ana's normal posting times. It's more of the frequency the past few hours which surprised me. Granted he is on the lead train so I hope he would defend himself but it's also picked up since he was at the bottom of the posting list. I still feel like that one kill has a Vig signature targeting the bottom posters and he would be next on the list before today's phase. If it weren't for that and the fact that he was on the train I think he'd still be doing minimal posts and trying to slide by a little longer. That's why I'm feeling more comfortable with his lynch train today.

[Xanjori]

Dupti being a VT and not voting on Cruelle surprised me, I was expecting him to be a TPR and at one point thought he might be counter-claiming Kryllian. But I wasn't certain and didn't want to push it too far into the open and then be wrong.

Same, only I was a bit worried it was already too far out in the open. I assume that's why they killed him last night.

@Danner.

Here you go. Literally one post before yours :P

[Graeham]

Please specify for posterity which players you are referring to.

Mostly yourself and Danner. Up until today I'd include Xanjori in that list too.

Personally I don't think the chance that you or Danner happen to be scum is very high - but I don't want to ignore the possibility completely because we've seen a few scum victories come to be simply because someone who appeared to be town turned out to be scum and by the time people realised that fact it was much too late to salvage anything.

[Danner]

@Danner.

Here you go. Literally one post before yours :P

Can't argue with that. Case closed.

[Reticence]

Mostly yourself and Danner. Up until today I'd include Xanjori in that list too.

Why is Xanjori no longer in that list?

Personally I don't think the chance that you or Danner happen to be scum is very high - but I don't want to ignore the possibility completely because we've seen a few scum victories come to be simply because someone who appeared to be town turned out to be scum and by the time people realised that fact it was much too late to salvage anything.

Right. And I know we've discussed this before, and everything you're saying is valid; doubt is healthy, as I told Danner. But as I told you before, it needs to be tempered. At the moment it feels less like you have an actual reason for it and more like a vague idea that you're throwing out occasionally. And maybe it's innocuous, but I have to admit that it's a little worrisome, as I can't help but wonder if you're trying to see if someone bites without actually committing to the idea.

I'll be frank, Graeham: I already have a small nagging paranoid voice in the back of my head; I don't need yours, too. What I do need is evidence, a concrete scenario for either of us being scum, and I would honestly feel better about you continuing to bring this up if you'd take the time to go back and try to come up with one. If it's for Danner, I'll factor it into my read and/or attempt to ease your fears with a counterpoint. If it's about me, I'd rather address those suspicions now rather than later.

[Graeham]

Why is Xanjori no longer in that list?

He's back on it again now. >_>

I took him off since Danner was prepared to question his 'slip' but it seems it wasn't a slip at all. I'm still a little uncomfortable that Xanjori didn't really engage me during the previous day phase when I tried to alleviate his concerns and still, now, doesn't seem to be able to pinpoint why he has doubts about my alignment.

As for paranoia...I'll put the matter to rest for the time being since it's unlikely that me pushing further at this time is going to be beneficial.

[Reticence]

He's back on it again now. >_>

I took him off since Danner was prepared to question his 'slip' but it seems it wasn't a slip at all. I'm still a little uncomfortable that Xanjori didn't really engage me during the previous day phase when I tried to alleviate his concerns and still, now, doesn't seem to be able to pinpoint why he has doubts about my alignment.

Oh. "Off the list" didn't mean that you weren't suspicious of him, just that you didn't consider him as being ignored as too pro-town? That makes more sense.

As for paranoia...I'll put the matter to rest for the time being since it's unlikely that me pushing further at this time is going to be beneficial.

I don't mean to quash the topic, by any means. I would just be more receptive to the idea if you provided something more than the possibility.

[Anakso]

Well I'm off to bed now, so obviously I'll be dead when I get up. We started off pretty good with some scum lynches but now you guys just seem to want to lynch townies.

[Xanjori]

It seems nothing else is going to happen today, I feel like voting Anakso to get it done with, are we at L-2 or 1?

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Ok L-1.

Hmm to wait for Listo to sleep or not. Will he change the face of this day? Somehow I doubt it.

[Virothe]

Alright, I'm back I see we had a semi-interesting night and I believe Anakso is L-1, Should I just hammer?

I mean I don't feel we're going to get anywhere else, but I don't want to shut down that chance either.... Bleh, I will leave it for an hour or so and then vote if nothing happens.

[Graeham]

Well, I guess I'm not opposed. It doesn't seem like anything else is going to happen today anyway.

[listo95]

So I'm back and I just want to clarify something. Rey why did you star several players thought dupti was a tpr when all we knew was Xanjori before your post? Wouldn't it have made more sense to say a couple. To me several indicates more than 3 people believing that.

[Reticence]

Rey why did you star several players thought dupti was a tpr when all we knew was Xanjori before your post? Wouldn't it have made more sense to say a couple. To me several indicates more than 3 people believing that.

/confused.

I'm the only one with a name that's close to "Rey", so I have to assume you're talking to me, but I don't know why you'd be asking me this question. Or what you're asking, really.

[shirokitsune]

So I'm back and I just want to clarify something. Rey why did you star several players thought dupti was a tpr when all we knew was Xanjori before your post? Wouldn't it have made more sense to say a couple. To me several indicates more than 3 people believing that.

I can't beat this post into submission enough to translate it to english. Could you rephrase/repeat Listo?

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With Anakso still at L-1 and a little under an hour to go, will hold off doing hammer vote. If it was L-2 I'd more than willingly put it back up to L-1. Will wait another 20 minutes or so and if Virothe doesn't beat me to it, will vote to seal it.

[listo95]

/confused.

I'm the only one with a name that's close to "Rey", so I have to assume you're talking to me, but I don't know why you'd be asking me this question. Or what you're asking, really.

Stupid phone... It's more of a semantics thing. From what I see only you and Xanjori mentioned anything about dupti being a tpr today. If that's the case you should have used "couple" not "several" like you did.