[Shadow] Mythic Dungeons

[Creatinebrah]

Is their aoe as bad as ours? As we can't really compete with their damage on boss damage as shadow unless we use stm(and probably not even then) as their cooldowns for short boss fights are just insane. They may be single target but they don't have long ramp up time like we do which is why they are good.

well, i understand the disparity between rogues and other classes on ST targets. but make no mistake, rogue ST will get nerfed before live or very shortly after release. they are the extreme outliers at the moment. but you are right, their burst on such short CD (and even shorter with legendary boots) is too powerful.

those are my buddy's logs and i honestly think hes an amazing rogue. rarely have i seen anyone pull numbers like he does and i've been trying to clear +10 at the moment so i've seen my fair share of rogues. out of those rogues, i'd say about 30% have good aoe while the rest have super garbage aoe. which tells me that the skill cap for AOE for this class is fairly high.

[Deleted]

If you go to the WoW Priest forums, it is full of "[Spec] Priests sucks now" (and their derivative) threads. I mainly raid and do heroics, I am not seeing the "sucking"; I am actually really liking the class changes (all 3 specs), as are others.

Now as @Isentropy is saying, that this seems to be in Mythic+ that SPriests run into issues, I think as more people feedback that, hopefully Blizzard will fix it.

Yes, well, it's hard to give that feedback when others try to diminish our concerns by saying that:
- some other specs are also in a bad place,
- we are hybrids so we can't compete with other classes,
- we are great on boss fights (check out those Archimonde logs!) so we should be happy competing with tanks on trash,
- we are simply whiners,
- we don't know how to multidot,
- we have unrealistic expectations,
- or that we can save the day with Shadow Mend and other classes can't
(all arguments from this thread).

I'm not saying shadow sucks as a whole, I actually enjoy it quite a lot - both gameplay and redefined "class fantasy". However, this thread is about our role in Mythics and my worry is that I don't have good enough talents or another DPS spec as a priest to tailor my toolkit to my preferred content. And with Legion launching in less than 5 weeks I'm afraid shadow priests may get left behind when it comes to Mythic progression.

[Simulacrum]

...

But seeing "the sky is falling!" posts on here and on the WoW Forums is also tiring.

Though nowhere near as tiring as all these irrelevant, fallacious digressions you keep filling the thread with... do you really need for half of every page of the thread to be dedicated to you pointlessly droning on about how you (based on zero experience, and - most hilariously - admitted total disinterest in the topic you're discussing...) think shadow priests are fine because they do good damage on bosses, when you (should...) know that that's totally irrelevant in 5 mans? It's so infuriating to have to read these stupid posts I felt compelled to let you know even though I realize how hypocritical it is of me to do so. Please, just stop.

[Deja Thoris]

There is a simple solution, put me on ignore. You will never have to read another post from me, ever.

Or you could at least pretend to address the topic at hand instead of filling half the thread with off topic shit posts.

[justflayin]

I am all for buffing Mind Sear, I just get a bit exasperated when what I am seeing (all beit in raids) is so out of line with what people are experiencing in Mythic+.

If you go to the WoW Priest forums, it is full of "[Spec] Priests sucks now" (and their derivative) threads. I mainly raid and do heroics, I am not seeing the "sucking"; I am actually really liking the class changes (all 3 specs), as are others.

Now as @Isentropy is saying, that this seems to be in Mythic+ that SPriests run into issues, I think as more people feedback that, hopefully Blizzard will fix it.

There are so many posts in the beta forum about our AOE. Many. It's just not something we're going to be good at, which would be absolutely fine if it weren't so core to a type of content. We work everywhere else except for high level Mythic+ timers.

[Saiyoran]

Surrender to Madness is the way to go for Mythic dungeons. I pulled 280kdps as 816 ilvl on Mythic 5 Neltharion's Lair Last boss. My spriest guildie who is 850 ilvl pulled 530k on the last boss (with lust).

As long as you know when to use StM and when to disperse, you are golden. You can usually use twice per dungeon and it's crucial on the boss damage for mythic 5+ dungeons.l

Super late reply from me, but I disagree. The 5 sec time loss from your death plus the 7-10 seconds getting rez'd after, 10 seconds getting food buff makes the damage you gained not worth the cost. Yes, you can get huge damage once every ten minutes, but at a loss on every trash pack and boss that's not the 2 you StM'd on, and for at least one of those StMs you just cost your group 25 seconds on the timer. Even adding 100-200k dps doesn't net you 25 seconds on a boss fight thats only going to last 1-2mins anyway. I could maybe see the argument for using it on a Tyrannical boss like the last boss in EoA, where the boss is incredibly hard to deal with and killing it ASAP may be worth the time loss since the alternative is just wiping as opposed to a slower kill, but you're gimping yourself for the rest of the dungeon.

[Fennixx]

Every class/spec has its flaws:

Aff locks have horrid ramp time on ST, only okay AoE (if you change talents) and average mobility.

Demo has horrid ramp time, lackluster AoE (unless specced into Implosion) and average mobility (if you take mobility talents)

Destro has okay single target, awesome cleave, terrible mobility and okay AoE (at expense of ST dmg)

Arcane mages has awesome ST burst, okay ST sustained, terrible cleave and is extremely reliant on CD`s.

Fire mages have awesome ST burst (every 2 mins), close to no multidot on spread targets, average sustained AoE, a looooong cast main nuke.

Frost mages have weak sustained ST, terrible sustained AoE and terrible scaling. Its awesome on cleave and quite mobile.

BM hunters cant dps spread targets and only average ST out of CD uptimes.

MM hunters are really RNG-ish (cant talk much on MM cause I really enjoy and play only BM).

Can`t say anything about Surv, but I hear AoE is quite lack luster.

Assassination has only average AoE and slooooowww ramp time aside from CD`s (mostly exsan)

Outlaw is really dependant o RtB luck. Only average burst.

Can`t say much about sub, cause I love Assassination.

Elemental has terrible mobility, poor insta casts outside of procs, average dmg outside of CD`s and big maelstrom expenders.

Moonkin have good dmg and thats it. It doesn`t shine too much outside of multidot fights.

Feral has terrible ramp up. And two of the worst abilites ever made in WoW`s history, Blood talons and 20ish seconds Savage Roar.

So yeah, thats the classes I play/played from semi-high to highest level. They all have issues and don`t shine on every aspect of the game. SP should be no different. Oh god, you suck on AoE burst for dungeon trash packs? Who friggin cares, if you end up being good on other aspects such as boss fights.

As for the so called hybrid tax, I agree hybrids should be able to compete for top spots on the typical boss fight. BUT, pures should always shine when it comes to adapt better to most (all) situations, by using to full extent all 3 dps specs (Legion might change this due to artifact, but I doubt it). Otherwise no one would ever play pure dps specs outside of novelty/lore reasons.

EDIT: I also play a SP since WoD (and loving it on pre-patch/legion)

[Saiyoran]

Fire mages have awesome ST burst (every 2 mins), close to no multidot on spread targets, average sustained AoE, a looooong cast main nuke.

u wut

Ignite is a huge amount of damage, and none of Fire's casts have long cast times, unless you mean Flamestrike which you never hard cast.

[Deleted]

Every class/spec has its flaws:
...

So you're saying that shadow priests should be happy competing with tanks on trash (which is usually most of PVE) because other specs have different designs? Got it.

As for the so called hybrid tax, I agree hybrids should be able to compete for top spots on the typical boss fight. BUT, pures should always shine when it comes to adapt better to most (all) situations, by using to full extent all 3 dps specs (Legion might change this due to artifact, but I doubt it). Otherwise no one would ever play pure dps specs outside of novelty/lore reasons.

As for your imaginary class design for hybrids and pures I don't recall a blue post backing your assumptions up. I do, however, remember Celestalon's tweet from 2014: "Hybrids and pures will do the same damage, and bring the same utility. That's the goal for Warlords.". We can discuss if Blizz achieved this goal or not but I'm not aware of any changes to this design philosophy for Legion.

[Deleted]

Oh god, you suck on AoE burst for dungeon trash packs? Who friggin cares, if you end up being good on other aspects such as boss fights.

You may not have noticed but this thread is about Mythic+ Dungeons which are supposed to be end game content. And guess what, that's where you friggin care about trash DPS because that's more than 60% of the run and thus trash DPS does matter - a lot.

Also most people are ok with having weak AoE as "flaw" but it shouldn't be so bad that you can't make up for it somehow.

[Deleted]

u wut

Ignite is a huge amount of damage, and none of Fire's casts have long cast times, unless you mean Flamestrike which you never hard cast.

Cmon man this guys played at a semi-high/ the higest level he knows what he's talking about even if he's making the mistakes of a fresh player.

[Fennixx]

Cmon man this guys played at a semi-high/ the higest level he knows what he's talking about even if he's making the mistakes of a fresh player.

lol who said I hardcast flamestrike?

- - - Updated - - -

You may not have noticed but this thread is about Mythic+ Dungeons which are supposed to be end game content. And guess what, that's where you friggin care about trash DPS because that's more than 60% of the run and thus trash DPS does matter - a lot.

Also most people are ok with having weak AoE as "flaw" but it shouldn't be so bad that you can't make up for it somehow.

If shadow priest end up behind tanks very often, they will fix it.

- - - Updated - - -

So you're saying that shadow priests should be happy competing with tanks on trash (which is usually most of PVE) because other specs have different designs? Got it.

As for your imaginary class design for hybrids and pures I don't recall a blue post backing your assumptions up. I do, however, remember Celestalon's tweet from 2014: "Hybrids and pures will do the same damage, and bring the same utility. That's the goal for Warlords.". We can discuss if Blizz achieved this goal or not but I'm not aware of any changes to this design philosophy for Legion.

1. every class has its flaws. If your`s (our`s, since I also play a SP) is burst AoE, thats fine, aslong its not crippling.

- - - Updated - - -

So you're saying that shadow priests should be happy competing with tanks on trash (which is usually most of PVE) because other specs have different designs? Got it.

As for your imaginary class design for hybrids and pures I don't recall a blue post backing your assumptions up. I do, however, remember Celestalon's tweet from 2014: "Hybrids and pures will do the same damage, and bring the same utility. That's the goal for Warlords.". We can discuss if Blizz achieved this goal or not but I'm not aware of any changes to this design philosophy for Legion.

Whether there is a blue post or not, the only reason people still play pures is the ability to spec swap to adapt better (artifact might change it). If hybrid dps specs could do everything all 3 specs of pures do combined, there would be no reason to play pures.

- - - Updated - - -

u wut

Ignite is a huge amount of damage, and none of Fire's casts have long cast times, unless you mean Flamestrike which you never hard cast.

Sorry, my bad.Burst AoE. Outside of procs (or talent swaps - which are irrelevant in M+) you dont have really good burst AoE. Ignite also take some time to spread to all targets (it doesn`t behave the same way it used to)

As for long cast, I was reffering to fireball (still a long cast IMO). And fire mages still lack multidotting abilities (unless targets are clumped). So, there are some flaws. The grass is always greener...

[justflayin]

lol who said I hardcast flamestrike?

- - - Updated - - -



If shadow priest end up behind tanks very often, they will fix it.

- - - Updated - - -



1. every class has its flaws. If your`s (our`s, since I also play a SP) is burst AoE, thats fine, aslong its not crippling.

- - - Updated - - -



Whether there is a blue post or not, the only reason people still play pures is the ability to spec swap to adapt better (artifact might change it). If hybrid dps specs could do everything all 3 specs of pures do combined, there would be no reason to play pures.

- - - Updated - - -



Sorry, my bad.Burst AoE. Outside of procs (or talent swaps - which are irrelevant in M+) you dont have really good burst AoE. Ignite also take some time to spread to all targets (it doesn`t behave the same way it used to)

As for long cast, I was reffering to fireball (still a long cast IMO). And fire mages still lack multidotting abilities (unless targets are clumped). So, there are some flaws. The grass is always greener...

But it is, and that's the point people are trying to make.

[Isentropy]

Again the 'all specs have weaknesses' argument comes up. Are you even reading the thread?

Shadow has no good options to make up for its weakness. The new talent system is supposed to fix that issue - you can pick a talent that is worse in one area and will make you stronger in another area. Shadow Crash is the only talent that fits that tradeoff properly: you give up some single target damage in favor of some AoE damage. That's fine. However, if you look at what shadow has baseline in terms of AoE, just Shadow Crash is not enough to give shadow even half decent AoE. Void Ray and Mind Spike are AoE options on paper but are absolutely terrible, and not just because of numbers.

In raids AoE being a weakness isn't relevant since that is not going to make or break your viability on any fight. Shadow can compensate for that in other ways in a coordinated raid group. In mythic+, having a well rounded kit (or at least being able to pick for a more well rounded kit) is far more important because you can't compensate for each other's weaknesses. There's simply not enough players for that in a 5 man group. Does this mean that shadow has zero redeeming qualities in mythic+? No, shadow is alright at boss damage (for tyrannical especially), has an AoE stun and our multidot can do okay on high levels of mythic+. This does not take away the fact that shadow doesn't have good AoE options, and that's still important for mythic+. There are a lot of specs that bring what shadow brings, or close to it, but do twice your damage on trash. The principle of that doesn't sit well with me, and Blizzard can do a lot more to help us in that regard. If you don't want to bring your group down assuming equal skill, you're better off going holy or disc - you can do the content, but it's not ideal for anyone. That is the problem.

I can see why Blizzard finds it hard to balance this since our kit does so well in raids, but that's what talents are for right? If they really wanted to help us for mythic+, doing it through talents is the best way to go. They quickly gave Void Ray and Mind Spike AoE components so they could say they gave us multiple AoE options, but they don't cut it at all. This leads me to believe that they genuinely don't care about shadow's mythic+ performance and are solely trying to balance shadow around raid performance. And speaking of raid performance, don't be surprised to see some nerfs in an upcoming tuning pass in regards to that!

[Kainslife]

Again the 'all specs have weaknesses' argument comes up. Are you even reading the thread?

Shadow has no good options to make up for its weakness. The new talent system is supposed to fix that issue - you can pick a talent that is worse in one area and will make you stronger in another area. Shadow Crash is the only talent that fits that tradeoff properly: you give up some single target damage in favor of some AoE damage. That's fine. However, if you look at what shadow has baseline in terms of AoE, just Shadow Crash is not enough to give shadow even half decent AoE. Void Ray and Mind Spike are AoE options on paper but are absolutely terrible, and not just because of numbers.

In raids AoE being a weakness isn't relevant since that is not going to make or break your viability on any fight. Shadow can compensate for that in other ways in a coordinated raid group. In mythic+, having a well rounded kit (or at least being able to pick for a more well rounded kit) is far more important because you can't compensate for each other's weaknesses. There's simply not enough players for that in a 5 man group. Does this mean that shadow has zero redeeming qualities in mythic+? No, shadow is alright at boss damage (for tyrannical especially), has an AoE stun and our multidot can do okay on high levels of mythic+. This does not take away the fact that shadow doesn't have good AoE options, and that's still important for mythic+. There are a lot of specs that bring what shadow brings, or close to it, but do twice your damage on trash. The principle of that doesn't sit well with me, and Blizzard can do a lot more to help us in that regard. If you don't want to bring your group down assuming equal skill, you're better off going holy or disc - you can do the content, but it's not ideal for anyone. That is the problem.

I can see why Blizzard finds it hard to balance this since our kit does so well in raids, but that's what talents are for right? If they really wanted to help us for mythic+, doing it through talents is the best way to go. They quickly gave Void Ray and Mind Spike AoE components so they could say they gave us multiple AoE options, but they don't cut it at all. This leads me to believe that they genuinely don't care about shadow's mythic+ performance and are solely trying to balance shadow around raid performance. And speaking of raid performance, don't be surprised to see some nerfs in an upcoming tuning pass in regards to that!

I've said it before and I guess I need to say it again: if you're doing AE in a Mythic+ dungeon you need to bump the difficulty up. If you can pull more than one trash back at a time it's too low for your group.

[Isentropy]

I've said it before and I guess I need to say it again: if you're doing AE in a Mythic+ dungeon you need to bump the difficulty up. If you can pull more than one trash back at a time it's too low for your group.

There are plenty of packs in mythic+ that consist of more than 5 mobs, and there's also plenty of times where you pull more than one pack. If you genuinely think AoE is not a part of mythic+ at all, even at higher levels, then you're clueless. Targets living long enough for your dots to fully tick is also not the only relevant thing when we're looking at why multidotting starts to falter on trash - if there are more than 4 targets you'll really start to notice this, on top of the Insanity ramp up we have to deal with.

Just because you're doing mythic+ pulling one pack at a time doesn't mean that's the fastest way or only way to do it. It's not about whether or not you're able to do the content as shadow, either. If that's the only thing you take away from my post then I suggest you read it again, and if you still don't understand then I can't help you.

[justflayin]

I've said it before and I guess I need to say it again: if you're doing AE in a Mythic+ dungeon you need to bump the difficulty up. If you can pull more than one trash back at a time it's too low for your group.

I don't think anyone is talking about pulling multiple trash packs. You're not going to make timers single targeting trash.

[Kainslife]

There are plenty of packs in mythic+ that consist of more than 5 mobs, and there's also plenty of times where you pull more than one pack. If you genuinely think AoE is not a part of mythic+ at all, even at higher levels, then you're clueless. Targets living long enough for your dots to fully tick is also not the only relevant thing when we're looking at why multidotting starts to falter on trash - if there are more than 4 targets you'll really start to notice this, on top of the Insanity ramp up we have to deal with.

Just because you're doing mythic+ pulling one pack at a time doesn't mean that's the fastest way or only way to do it. It's not about whether or not you're able to do the content as shadow, either. If that's the only thing you take away from my post then I suggest you read it again, and if you still don't understand then I can't help you.

I think you need to rewatch some shadow priest videos. Any trash packs with more than 4 more mobs either have priority targets that you need to single target down OR are the BS non-elite/3-count-as-one trash packs that a warrior is just going to Bladestorm anyway.

I've seen plenty of Mythic1-10 videos of shadow priests doing perfectly fine in a dungeon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jD6_68Bw94

[Isentropy]

I think you need to rewatch some shadow priest videos. Any trash packs with more than 4 more mobs either have priority targets that you need to single target down OR are the BS non-elite/3-count-as-one trash packs that a warrior is just going to Bladestorm anyway.

I've seen plenty of Mythic1-10 videos of shadow priests doing perfectly fine in a dungeon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jD6_68Bw94

Feel free to read my post again, because you're not actually trying to understand what I'm saying. I have done plenty of high mythic+ myself, I don't need to rewatch anything, especially not a video that lacks any kind of context. How good are the rest of the players? What's your/their gear like? Do you have any logs to provide context?

- If you're in a group with players with equal gear & skill, shadow will get destroyed on trash unless it's a pack of 3 - 4 mobs (you can see the same thing happening in the video you linked, so I'm not sure what that's supposed to prove)
- Shadow has one good AoE option in its talent tree and no good baseline AoE
- Multidotting is limited in its usefulness because it relies on: 1) amount of targets 2) how long the targets will live ; even if 8 targets live for 5 minutes, that's not going to be a good situation for multidotting, for example
- Voidform ramp up isn't ideal for some trash packs
- Good priority target damage is not necessarily that valuable - go watch some of Fragnance's vods where he does high mythic+ and look at how much focused damage they're actually doing

Shadow can do high mythic+, just as shadow was able to do gold CMs in WoD. That doesn't mean that shadow was good. Blizzard can do more to help shadow in that regard, because AoE is still very much a big part of mythic+ since your rewards are time based, and AoE will reduce your time on trash significantly even if it's not as big of an AoE fest as CMs were in WoD. It's. Still. Important.

[Biomega]

"It's not literally impossible for SPriests to do high M+, therefore it's fine" seems to be the essence of only all-too many arguments, sadly. Yes you can go into high M+ and you can do reasonably okay. You will have to work harder than many other classes, and you will likely end up with AT BEST an on-par performance, but you're not literally 100% useless.

Whether that is a state that's desirable is another matter.

I like the CM Gold analogy. SPs could do it. SPs did do it. That doesn't mean that they did it WELL compared to other alternatives. And in Legion, dungeons are not mere tools for vanity or gold boosting, but actual content. Having that same situation in ACTUAL CONTENT is perceived as problematic by many. That is not to say raid performance isn't fine (it is) or anything else, mind you. Just that. Dungeons are not kind to SPs.