Are all tanks bad now?

[Mormolyce]

all tanks are more dependent on the healer now

the brewmaster at least has been horribly redesigned and is clearly inferior by quite a bit

Have to agree, old brewmaster might've been a bit cluttered but this just feels horrible.

At least let me target keg smash again :S

[Project 501D13R]

It's not that tanks are bad, it's that we don't have anywhere near the self sustainability we had before 7.0, while there is a clear difference between skilled tanks and terrible tanks, skilled tanks are no longer the unstoppable juggernauts they were before 7.0. Also tank survival vs content is currently lower than what it will be at 110, atm we do not have our artifacts, or any of the legion legendaries.

[Deleted]

I can manage everything on my paladin. But I can not solo carry like I used to above Normal HFC ofc.

[Bapestar]

Good news for us pro healers. Now we can get some more shine. BC was the best expansion, and this system, was why dungeons were so good.

[risingforce]

When I am healing a Dungeon with my Resto Shamy, I mostly have Problems with Pallys and Warriors. Bosses are fine, but Trash Packs are awful. The Health Bar goes down almost instantly, and even with healing surge spam, it hardly goes up. Druids and DKs feel like a fortress, always love to heal them. Brewmasters are a mixed bag, some are incredibly tough.

Yeah, I feel that 7.0.3 really widened the gap (and it was already a gulf, before) between good and bad and Brewmasters.

I was very worried about what they'd done to my Brewmaster, but all in I enjoy it more than Prot Warr, Blood DK and my Prot Paladin. Protection Paladin is a strong second for me, however, as I feel that they will be a popular choice.

I still worry that Brewmasters will have a bad stigma attached them possibly making recruitment a little more difficult -or easier for recruiters to choose other tanks.

DPS wise, yes all tanks seem to have had their numbers reduced greatly. My brewmaster still has crazy AOE DPS but single target and solo I feel very humbled... but perhaps that's what all tanks needed.

[Cwimge]

It's not that tanks are bad, it's that we don't have anywhere near the self sustainability we had before 7.0, while there is a clear difference between skilled tanks and terrible tanks, skilled tanks are no longer the unstoppable juggernauts they were before 7.0. Also tank survival vs content is currently lower than what it will be at 110, atm we do not have our artifacts, or any of the legion legendaries.

good to hear tanking will be balanced around getting at least one of these "totally optional but your class won't work properly without it" oranges

[Deleted]

Tanks are just fine

- - - Updated - - -

Good news for us pro healers. Now we can get some more shine. BC was the best expansion, and this system, was why dungeons were so good.

Healers are still the first to get benched so nothing has really changed. Just some nuance added

[Dezminion]

Tanks might be fine'ish on how they take dmg (I do not think so), but the way you play them is boring. I enjoyed my tanking until 7.0.3 came live, ain't gona bother with it anymore.
It feels rly unrewarding and boring currently.

[Deleted]

Blizzard's new idea is to remove any potential for a skilled player to achieve strong results. You can see it in dps specs too, like the new Combustion for fire mages. Previously mages could line up huge Combustion ticks, but since this actually required a measure of skill, Blizzard removed it.
Likewise, you could self-sustain as a tank if you had good resource management and knew how to cooldown-tunnel through strong hits. This was removed because guilds with bad tanks were massively held back. So instead of giving bad tanks an incentive to get good, Blizzard just dropped the skill ceiling much lower and adjusted the difficulty of the content accordingly.

You can no longer really excel by playing your class extremely well, but it also makes no difference because lethal burst-damage has more or less been removed from the game. Even on current content you can completely fuck up your AM on Mythic Mannoroth's glaive-combo every single time and you won't die because the consequences of your failure are irrelevant. This is the kind of design they're going for with Legion: dropping the potential for skillful play and then balancing the game around the enforced mediocrity.

And as for healers getting something to do, actual progress was almost never about tank damage. Raiding Mythic nearly always came down to movement, group-heals and timing cooldowns to squeeze through hard phases of the encounter. I don't know a single healer who went "Gosh, I wish I could stand around and spam ST heals on the tank, like back in the day...". If you ask me, a tank decked out in the full gear of that tier (i.e. 720 for HFC Hc) should be able to self-sustain at least 75% of the incoming damage, if he plays close to "perfectly". Even the best tanks in the world would still need healers, but at least it would give players the tools to work hard for their own survival. Healers already have more than enough to do keeping the group up and playing mechanics. If they're under-worked, just give them dps-spells to get buff stacks they can use to boost other players.

[potis]

In the certain pre-patch content, in Mythic Dungeons/TW etc(Havent raided cause there is no point) pretty much a HoT can keep me at full HP if i dont multi-pull, even then with CD management cause of HFC 4-set i can multi pull without problems and dont really need more than a quick heal to take me from 95%-->100%.

But then again, Ignore Pain is godly and i can manage it perfectly fine.

Kept reading people crying about Mythic Dungeons etc, took my usual healer this expansion (Disc Priest) he pulled like 40K DPS and i never went below 95%.

They just changed the game so healers are more important but if you as a tank fuck up, the punishment is much more severe right now cause everything feels underpowered, i dont know how Legion is but i assume the same.

Generally i dont know how other tanks play RIGHT now, but Warrior is god-mode if you simply manage Ignore Pain and the cooldowns properly, Healthbar barely moves and i know Legion is the same, but there will always be "oh fuck!" moments, as long as you are ready/track it properly.

[Deleted]

Problem is you have not the gameplay of threat managment of BC

Tanks never had that gameplay element, everyone else did.

[Gumboy]

But doomlord kazzak is irrelevant content you outgear.

Tanks should only be "reliant" on healers when it comes to the most difficult of content. Crippling a tanks "fun" for a healers "fun" is a subjective mess of design choices that Blizzard had admittedly designed -away- from in the past. It's so cute that people like you will defend that decision like healing is only fun if you're able to heal the tanks.

Tank healing and interacting with tanks specifically as a healer does not make playing a healer fun, and if you honestly think that, then you're playing the wrong class/game.

Edit: Honestly, these design choices feel like a tanks idea as to what would make healing more "fun", which is not at all a good thing.

Nobody should be able to solo any current expansion bosses. Thats my opinion. Clearly different from yours, but you are stating yours as a fact.

[micwini]

Prot pal is maybe not as bad but its the most fucking boring tank spec for sure. Press 3 buttons, one of which is a 3 charge damage mitigation. In addition some CD's. Boring. as. fuck.

[Deleted]

if you had a shitty tank which dont excell you raid could less dmg and healing. Best time to determine if you have shit tank or not.

managing threat with abilties by dps and healers is a other box of candy

"Always do max threat" isn't very exciting gameplay though. There's no options.
Everyone else had the "threat management"-gameplay, tanks didn't.

[Gemini Soul]

Tanks should only be "reliant" on healers when it comes to the most difficult of content. Crippling a tanks "fun" for a healers "fun" is a subjective mess of design choices that Blizzard had admittedly designed -away- from in the past. It's so cute that people like you will defend that decision like healing is only fun if you're able to heal the tanks.

Tank healing and interacting with tanks specifically as a healer does not make playing a healer fun, and if you honestly think that, then you're playing the wrong class/game.

1000% agree, tanking for me is fun when the content is dangerous and you have to do w/e you can to stay alive no matter what heals are incoming its the "fight for your life"(TBC with defense rating and crushing blows). Also on the other end of the spectrum tanking is fun when you out gear the content and its about CD/resourced management/timing as well as skill in trying to stay alive with little to no heals at all because you don't need it or your solo tanking a fight that was made to be dual tanked because you can solo tank it with enough gear/skill.(Cata/MoP tanking)

It seems like they put the pendulum of this right in the middle where it doesn't matter much what we do and tanks staying alive is largely based on us taunt swapping when DBM yells at us and hoping our healer doesn't get bored of blindly casting/spamming us or they die.

[Holofernes]

as a warrior tank i would say warrior relatively improved when compared to other tanks, that had way too much selfheal. a dk solo tanking manoroth hc for 4 minutes is just op.
And year dks and paladins got rid of their extreme selfsustainability they got used too, i can see that this hits the players hard that got used to beeing imba. But sometimes, playing a normal class helps to get your view about what is in line and what is out of order back to normal.
I think blizz finally decided to make en end to the "mione-class that can do stuff that nobody else can do because dk"

so its not a "BAD" spot. but more a "not imba any more" spot.

And about the soloing capabilies: ask an armswarrior or elemental shaman what he can solo now what he could solo before 7.0. i got some decent repairbills by trying it out, im doing nalak as healer (15 minute fight yeah), because its the only working way.

[Dezminion]

as a warrior tank i would say warrior relatively improved when compared to other tanks, that had way too much selfheal. a dk solo tanking manoroth hc for 4 minutes is just op.
And year dks and paladins got rid of their extreme selfsustainability they got used too, i can see that this hits the players hard that got used to beeing imba. But sometimes, playing a normal class helps to get your view about what is in line and what is out of order back to normal.
I think blizz finally decided to make en end to the "mione-class that can do stuff that nobody else can do because dk"

so its not a "BAD" spot. but more a "not imba any more" spot.

And about the soloing capabilies: ask an armswarrior or elemental shaman what he can solo now what he could solo before 7.0. i got some decent repairbills by trying it out, im doing nalak as healer (15 minute fight yeah), because its the only working way.

Still if you were a BAD tank, that did not have any idea on what button to press when you still got hammered into the ground. Meaning, that then one would start to think what can I do to prevent this from happening.

Now the skill ceiling to tanking is like 1cm high, meaning that the changes only hurt the good tanks.

I do not see anything positive coming from this, I know quite a few long time tanks (myself included) that are not going to tank in Legion, since the role is just to be a crap dps who has threat, who takes dmg despite what he does.
If the game wants you to take a ton of dmg you will take it, all your active mitigations (that got butchered) will not keep you alive. Line that with some heavy raid wide dmg and you have a dead tank.

[Deleted]

If there would be no options there would be no shitty tanks, so the rarity of good mts in BC dont agree with you

The 2 options were:
1) Press the max threat ability on cd to be a 'good mt'
2) Don't press the correct max threat ability on cd, be a bad tank

That is BC tanking

[I Push Buttons]

Prot pally isn't in a bad place functionally, but it is in a bad place gameplay wise.

It is probably the best raid tank by a good margin... But its just boring now.

I am not saying the old model was some intricate complex engaging system... But haste cap spamming to generate and spend holy power was at least fun and fast.

Now you just chill and hit a bunch of buttons that have no feedback just for the sake of hitting them.

[Deleted]

Uhm yeah, I have seen countless tank reviews, people crying here and there how tanking is lame, boring, not fun anymore...

Yeah, those people dont care about atrocities their beloved previous game design did to healers (mostly). Surely it was fun for tanks to tank anything with billions of cooldowns and self healing, sure it was fun for many damage dealers to survive anything, outrun anything...everything was fine and dandy because guess what, lets kick this one useless healer, f*ck him, right? Thats WoD reality, cant kill a boss? Kick a healer.

Tanking is in the right spot at the moment, its just not suited for dinosaurs of old golden ages and special snowflakes. There are still some cooldowns you can use, healers have to actually heal you and when your group doesnt use smart CC on trash you may have some problems. Self healing is still solid, healing about 20-30%hp yourself every 15 sec or so seems weak? Really?

Its mindblowing how even some self-proclaimed wow raiding experts fail to see the bigger picture, that you cant just fix tanks and be done with the game. If you make tanks strong you kick out healers, sometimes dps. If you overtune healers you kick out healers and tanks, if you overtune dps you kick out tanks and healers. Its all connected, its fine now, everybody has to do something.