[7.0 Retribution Paladin] Guide and Discussion

[Hashcrypt]

That's literally every classes forums right now. Go ahead, check them out, you'll realize that everyone believes their class is garbage. People pretend to be more outraged than they really are, its just campaigning for buffs since they know blizzard factors in feedback from the community more than most developers.

Some issues are real though. The current state of ret is garbage. This is entirely due to how blizz has fucked up PvP templates. Everyone is running around with far too much health, and Ret can't keep up.

Things were good when everyone had 350k. THAT'S how PvP should be. When I got on healers they died unless they got peels. THAT'S how PvP should be.

I can assure you that locks are not complaining, considering their status as a fucking raid boss.

[Deleted]

That's literally every classes forums right now. Go ahead, check them out, you'll realize that everyone believes their class is garbage. People pretend to be more outraged than they really are, its just campaigning for buffs since they know blizzard factors in feedback from the community more than most developers.

So that must explain why ret paladins are actually trying to change whole gameplay, talents, mastery and artifact traits? Because we want buffs so we can be "STRONK!!!", right?
On top of your claim being just straight up not true, as many are satisfied with their design and everything, and ret has 3-4 times more feedback than other classes, on top of it being 95% negative (and positive feedback is mostly from trolls who claim stuff that is just opposite of reality... for reasons i still cant understand, especially if they really play ret).
But guess it must be just spoiled people whining and not people being concerned about spec that has worst design in rpg history probably on top of abilities that no one sane would throw in during brainstorm sessions, let alone in game... or people being concerned that due to their design, they are most likely not going to see any boss that requires mobility, cleave, or aoe at cutting edge play... on top of any meaningful pvp whatsoever (dont care about pvp tho, but its still obvious... tho this thread is not about pvp, as its pve guide, yet people spam pvp stuff here all the time for some reason).

I still cant grasp why would people that actually play ret lie and deceive others and claim stuff that is so obviously not true (like reghame and such). What are they trying to accomplish? Oh well...
But make no mistake, ret is a catastrophe and it wont change much at 110(for those that cant play beta and hope it will). I suggest leveling something else as backup plan if you dont believe, DK or warr are both good fun and good in many situations, so wont hurt to have some after you get to real stuff in legion and realize how terrible ret is.

[Deleted]

Ret is perfectly fine. It's fun to play and much more engaging than it was before now that you actually need to pay attention to the HP you are gaining and using.

[Hashcrypt]

Ret is perfectly fine. It's fun to play and much more engaging than it was before now that you actually need to pay attention to the HP you are gaining and using.

In pve possibly. Ret is useless in pvp. Which sucks because I loved ret for the first week or so after pre patch launched.

[ujx]

That's literally every classes forums right now. Go ahead, check them out, you'll realize that everyone believes their class is garbage. People pretend to be more outraged than they really are, its just campaigning for buffs since they know blizzard factors in feedback from the community more than most developers.

Every class feedback thread does infact have outrage, because that is the point of a feedback thread. Most classes have "outrage" over poorly designed talents. Shadow priests for example have a god awful level 100 tree that forces them to pick Surrender to Madness, which is an awful designed talent but offers by far the most dps.

Ret on the other hand is garbage from the get go. The core kit is trash. No talents or numbers is going to fix it unless they put in some OP tier bonus that changes the gameplay, which will probably end up happening because Blizzard loves band-aid fixes instead of fixing the core problem. Ret is a carbon copy of Colossus Smash arms warrior. The difference is, arms had very good AoE and cleave, charge and heroic leap also. Arms also isn't limited by ramp up of combo points and can unload itself during Sweeping Strikes with rage. Ret does not have any of those. It is an unfinished spec.

[Snegovik]

Ret was good when Blizz made good pvp templates after pre patch launched.

Since then Blizz went fucking nuts with damage nerfs and health inflation.

Now Ret is trash. Hope Blizz has better pvp templates at 110. When I get on a healer, theyre suppose to die. Instead they just tank my damage like I'm not there.

And of course we'll ignore the abortion of balance that are Locks. Jesus Christ how can blizzard be okay with unkillable locks?

Guess we'll all just have to cross our fingers and hope for better pvp templates.

Correct me if i am wrong, but aren't those pvp templates are for lvl 110 as well?

- - - Updated - - -

Ret is perfectly fine. It's fun to play and much more engaging than it was before now that you actually need to pay attention to the HP you are gaining and using.

Do you even PvP bro?

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Every class feedback thread does infact have outrage, because that is the point of a feedback thread. Most classes have "outrage" over poorly designed talents. Shadow priests for example have a god awful level 100 tree that forces them to pick Surrender to Madness, which is an awful designed talent but offers by far the most dps.

Ret on the other hand is garbage from the get go. The core kit is trash. No talents or numbers is going to fix it unless they put in some OP tier bonus that changes the gameplay, which will probably end up happening because Blizzard loves band-aid fixes instead of fixing the core problem. Ret is a carbon copy of Colossus Smash arms warrior. The difference is, arms had very good AoE and cleave, charge and heroic leap also. Arms also isn't limited by ramp up of combo points and can unload itself during Sweeping Strikes with rage. Ret does not have any of those. It is an unfinished spec.

Couldn't agree more. I urge anyone that are planning to main Ret in Legion to get on beta or PTR and make a Warrior and play for a couple levels as Arms, it's by no means perfect but it's so much more enjoyable than Ret is. Not to forget that Warriors have a second DPS spec so if Arms (or Fury) gets trashed by some balancing patch or set bonus, trinket, Legendary or otherwise you can always jump to the other spec. Ret doesn't have that and Ret (imo) already feels like a half assed half value Arms Warrior.
Honestly... DPS Warriors have a raid cd, historically higher damage, still has Execute mechanic, far superior mobility, far superior aoe (and AoE burst as Arms), Fury Warrior is one of the best 3 target cleave specs and Ret is among the worst. Did I mention that DPS Warriors have a raid cd!?
For me Ret honestly feels like an Arms Warrior that has a cap of 50 rage (Arms can get 130+ rage in Legion through Artifact Power) it's just so *bleh*, it just doesn't feel satisfying at all. Spells look great and you have the Ashbringer, still when everything hits for just about the same and the rotation is boring as F (even compared to warriors) there's just no "finish" to the rotation. Compare it to Arms that can stack Mortal Strike buff to make it hit for millions at 110? (yes, millions- no, not even legendary) or like Fury Warriors that gets a 5% damage buff to their Execute for 6 seconds after using Execute- stacking up to 99 times! It's so much flavor and "whoa that hit hard" in DPS Warrior that makes it satisfying, meanwhile I couldn't notice the difference between builders and finishers as Ret...

[LordAmbrosia]

Every class feedback thread does infact have outrage, because that is the point of a feedback thread. Most classes have "outrage" over poorly designed talents. Shadow priests for example have a god awful level 100 tree that forces them to pick Surrender to Madness, which is an awful designed talent but offers by far the most dps.

Ret on the other hand is garbage from the get go. The core kit is trash. No talents or numbers is going to fix it unless they put in some OP tier bonus that changes the gameplay, which will probably end up happening because Blizzard loves band-aid fixes instead of fixing the core problem. Ret is a carbon copy of Colossus Smash arms warrior. The difference is, arms had very good AoE and cleave, charge and heroic leap also. Arms also isn't limited by ramp up of combo points and can unload itself during Sweeping Strikes with rage. Ret does not have any of those. It is an unfinished spec.

I actually love Surrender to Madness, its my favorite one in the game and I think its a wonderful design.

I tried out ret on my 100 pally on live, played with the new rotation and judgement system, and I think it seems pretty good. It's a lot more engaging than other specs that I've tried (I've tried about half the DPS specs). At risk of being told to dig though this whole thread, what are your problems with it exactly?

[Snegovik]

I actually love Surrender to Madness, its my favorite one in the game and I think its a wonderful design.

I tried out ret on my 100 pally on live, played with the new rotation and judgement system, and I think it seems pretty good. It's a lot more engaging than other specs that I've tried (I've tried about half the DPS specs). At risk of being told to dig though this whole thread, what are your problems with it exactly?

Well since from you words you are a PvEr, then i assume mobility is the main one for you guys? From PvP pov i can point out at least 10 issues that make our spec inferior in pvp, even more so than we were in Vanila...and it says a lot

[LordAmbrosia]

Well since from you words you are a PvEr, then i assume mobility is the main one for you guys? From PvP pov i can point out at least 10 issues that make our spec inferior in pvp, even more so than we were in Vanila...and it says a lot

Most classes have complained about pruning, but paladins dodged the pruning clips and still have almost all of their utility. BoP, BoF, Cleanse, Blinding Light. Survivability with self healing and the new shield. Bubble is still the ultimate reset button, making you start over. Mobility could be worse, if you take Divine Steed they are about on par with DK, and they have gapclosers in HoH and Hammer to make up for it. Once you get PvP talents you have some extra mobility help and the insane Blessing of Sanctuary.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Most classes have complained about pruning, but paladins dodged the pruning clips and still have almost all of their utility. BoP, BoF, Cleanse, Blinding Light. Survivability with self healing and the new shield. Bubble is still the ultimate reset button, making you start over. Mobility could be worse, if you take Divine Steed they are about on par with DK, and they have gapclosers in HoH and Hammer to make up for it. Once you get PvP talents you have some extra mobility help and the insane Blessing of Sanctuary.

Not this shit again...

[Snegovik]

Most classes have complained about pruning, but paladins dodged the pruning clips and still have almost all of their utility. BoP, BoF, Cleanse, Blinding Light. Survivability with self healing and the new shield. Bubble is still the ultimate reset button, making you start over. Mobility could be worse, if you take Divine Steed they are about on par with DK, and they have gapclosers in HoH and Hammer to make up for it. Once you get PvP talents you have some extra mobility help and the insane Blessing of Sanctuary.

What Utility are you talking about sir?
BOP, BOF are on much longer cds, and can be both SS/purged/dispelled and players who PvP actually do just that, thats why you have to macro in /cancel BOF and Veng Shield
Cleanse poison/diseases ok but so almost every dps class has something similar ontop of their superior tool kit
Blind Light is not used in PvP by any Rets.
Survivability? what survivability sir are you talking about? 5 min bubble that can be dispelled? BOP/ Shield of Veng that can be both SS by mages and used against us, purged/dispelled by other classes?
Self healing? Kek =) plz tell me with a straight face you think ppl will train Ret and will allow you to free cast in their face?
Bubble that can be MDed the same global you use it or mimicked by DKs? It is only our real D-cd which is on a 5 min cd? Compared to die by the sword, disperse, sham rage, CLOS/Evasion, bark skin or surv inst, and so on that have shorter cd, provide better survival and can not be dispelled? Cute =)
Mobility could be worse? Sir, please name 1 DPS class that has worse mobility or anti mobility than Ret.
Divine steed is not a base mobility or anti mobility talent, Dks have DG, they can spam ice chains, they become immune to snare or magic, and they can stick to target unlike Ret. UH dk can actually kite Ret now. Further more, unlike Ret the DK can unload the burst the moment it gets to target while Ret has to get to Target 1st, then build up HPs, then Apply judgement, and only then burst, given target is still sitting in melee range. DKs are far more superior to Rets in terms of being able to stick to the KT.
HoH? You mean one that can be dispelled on 30 sec cd and costs ton of mana, Hammer the one with 10 yard range?
Ret’s PvP talents are inferior to the other classes PvP talents by far. Better mobility? U mean 20% speed on freedom which will get SS or dispelled the 1st global? Once again cute.
DHs for example get extra CC from pvp talents, they get reverse magic those are meaningful talents that alter game play. Rets’ pvp talent does not alter game play at all with an exception of 30 sec judgment debuff, but it does not matter much since pvp templates reduce our mastery by 75%
On top of that our aoe is still weak, we still do not have any meaningful group utility, our ST dmg is not that great in Arena either compare to other classes, because anything and every1 can kite us. Our survival is crap, and ontop of that our JV does not heal from abs, aka priests bubbles, locks bubbles. Oh and did I say lack of any type of mobility again? How can you manage to catch WW, MW, Feral, Arcane, Elem, DH, Rogue, Hunter, even war with a 45 sec CD 3sec Sprint? Even UH dk can kite you, and it suppose to be a 0 mobility class
And once again, Rets are still not RBG viable.

- - - Updated - - -

Not this shit again...

Its ok Storm i got it =) save ur energy for the next one lol, cuz there always will be a next one

[Morally Grey Storm]

Its ok Storm i got it =) save ur energy for the next one lol, cuz there always will be a next one

I don't fething even.
Where do they come from?
Why do they keep spouting same nonsense?

[LordAmbrosia]

I don't fething even.
Where do they come from?
Why do they keep spouting same nonsense?

Alright. Ret is dead. Its unsalvagable, utter trash. So why are you here? Pick a new class.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Alright. Ret is dead. Its unsalvagable, utter trash. So why are you here? Pick a new class.

But can I?

[Deleted]

Again, this is PvE guide and thread. yet like 80% of posts are from 2-3 people complaining about PvP.
But anyway, its not good in PvE, problems are mobility, aoe, cleave, no utility etc. There is absolutely no reason to bring ret on anything other than tunnel boss with no mobility fights. And even then, ret is not the best at that either, so why bring them at all?
No baseline aoe, and talented still pretty bad. No mobility leads to less uptime on boss and since we are not far ahead of everyone else with 100% uptime either, you will suck on those fights too. Cleave is the same as aoe, zeal and judgement are only cleave options unless you spec for something terrible like DH(that is probably terrible even for aoe, let alone cleave).

Or the terrible questing and leveling with all new "z axis" zones and stuff. Its so nice to run into caves and indoor areas with some warr or dh only to see them already start going out before you even got to the objective. Or even if we get some options/change with talents, stuff like JV ends up probably being even worse than TV on 110 with traits, so no use even with DP(why they dont make it deal 50% increased damage and 50% reduced healing against targets permanently immune to stun, since they already have that style in game with storm bolt and would make it useful with DP for a long time, and wouldnt make it op in pvp or whatever).

But yes, spec is complete and utter trash, abomination that no sane person would create. And that kinda makes me question and contemplate about what is worse... for blizzard to be so incompetent that they actually made it so obviously terrible and didnt realize something that any sane person would as soon as concept was drawn, or they actually do hate paladins in general but ret the most and are so pathetic and petty to actually do it on purpose

@LordAmbrosia Maybe we dont want it to be utter trash, and hope it gets changed? So if something you play or played for 10 years is ruined, you just give up and get a new one? Obviously you will try to get it fixed

[saitao]

Actually most it is already said uple of times here and there, I can only hope that devs are working on Ret right now to an overhau. For Ret is garrbage and not worth buying or playing.[/QUOTE]

i feel the same,i sad ,my dps on hfc is sux,that sux haste,wtf....maybe i ll change class ,i don t want...but is not fun

[marinos]

If you are expecting an overhaul at this point you are delusional. Current ret is what we get,there will be a couple band aid fixes mostly via tier sets and the usual numbers balance for the 1st raid tier but mechanics are what they are. If you hope for an overhaul,w8 for 8.0 .

[Fredzilla]

But can I?

No one's stopping you.

I mean, I'm not saying any of what's been said is wrong, per se, but everyone might be blowing it a little bit out of proportion. The spec isn't literally unplayable, and for everyone outside of the top like 1% of raid guilds can find a way to make it work in their own situation if they really want to. I mean, Cata launch was a complete train wreck (still definitely worse than this, in my opinion), but we made it through that eventually.

I'm all for making the devs see what they did wrong (and keep doing wrong), but whining in circles here isn't going to help anything. Just makes people not want to read the forums, probably.

[Doombringer]

The problem is very apparent when you play a melee class other than Ret:

> Warrior - Fury has an amazing feel to it that you should experience. Between Charge and Heroic Leap, you feel very agile and can initiate easily, and look great while doing it. You build rage with Bloodthirst or normal attacks, fill with Furious Slash (which can buff Bloodthirst), use Raging Blow when available, and dump rage with the rather spectacular Rampage. Whirlwind buffs Bloodthirst or Rampage to also have them cleave. Slow with Piercing Howl. You have something to do at ranged (Heroic Throw) if necessary and talents are varied (Dragon Roar or Bladestorm, and plenty that add or upgrade mobility or self-healing/damage reduction), etc, etc. It really feels well put-together.

> Shaman - Enhancement also has a great kit. On approach you can throw out some lightning bolts from a LONG distance and keep pelting along as you run up (or Ghost Wolf or Spirit Walk to close the distance, OR use the Feral Lunge talent to effectively get a Charge). Once in, you build with Rockbiter or Boulderfist, weave in Flametongue, use Stormstrike when available and dump Maelstrom with Lava Lash. Maelstrom also makes your cast-time heal instantaneous. Your cleave also allows Lava Lash and Stormstrike to ALSO cleave. The talent setup can modify how you play, putting more importance on Lightning Bolt or Lava Lash or open up big talents like Sundering. I never feel like I do not have something to do when at range and approaching a target, unlike Ret.