[Beta] Vengeance Discussion

[redfella]

Still higher than Bear/Monk/DH, so I wouldn't call it weak exactly.

[Deleted]

So do we just have strong AoE, but weak sustained AoE, weak single target dps and low survivability? Or is it not so bad?

Also, in terms.of survivability, mostly in Mythic+ dungeons - how bad is it compared to the other tanks? I mean am I going to hear from healers "oh, you are so much harder to heal then xxxx", or the difference isn't that big?

[Delimit]

Buffs + Bearcat has Guardian in a decent spot, above DH in my experience. DK's ST was roughly the same (with higher AOE) before the kick in the balls to Felblade and FE, which dropped DH down quite a bit. We're definitely on the lower side at this point.

[elfporn]

On this small comparison tangent - i've got a friend who is trying to decide between brewmaster or vengeance DH, my advice to him was to do DH due to the more interesting gameplay.

So my question is - How is the scaling on DH vs monk? Is survivability good for raiding progression? (Or more like monks at MoP release?)

He will be tanking progression raids as our offtank.

To my untrained eye, the self healing, avoidance, and rotational mitigation looks on par or ahead(and with much more interesting synergy and artifact)

Note: i've not played DH yet.

[Delimit]

Gluttony has been removed.
Fel Eruption has been moved from the 106 tier down to the 102 tier to take it's place.
Sigil of Chains is no longer baseline and takes FE's spot on 106.

I suspect that damage on the 102 tier will have to be brought up to compensate for our single target DPS options competing now. Quickened Sigils might be the go to option for 106 now considering the mediocre radius on Chains.

[Munkky]

BLIZZZZ WHY YOU CHANGE MUH TALENTS LIKE DIS!!!

P.S. Anyone wondering if I'm going to update my guide right now, I will do it tomorrow after I get up. I will also do math on Felblade vs Fel Eruption.

Quick thoughts on it:
Felblade for Surv and ST DPS
Flame Crash for AoE DPS
Fel Eruption will be meh

Conc sigils still not used
Sigil of Chains for dungoeons if you want or specific boss fights (also note its a 1 min cd, down from 2 min)
Quickened Sigils, the new go to talent cause 1 second build up and reduced cd (thought its minor)

[Melsiren]

Gluttony has been removed.
Fel Eruption has been moved from the 106 tier down to the 102 tier to take it's place.
Sigil of Chains is no longer baseline and takes FE's spot on 106.

I suspect that damage on the 102 tier will have to be brought up to compensate for our single target DPS options competing now. Quickened Sigils might be the go to option for 106 now considering the mediocre radius on Chains.

There any other changes?

I really hope with making us choose betweeen FE, and FB we get a baseline damage increase to make up for it, even if it's minor.

[Delimit]

There any other changes?

I really hope with making us choose betweeen FE, and FB we get a baseline damage increase to make up for it even it it's minor.

Darkness tooltip is back at 20%, but it's currently bugged and is actually casting Empower Wards instead. I reported/tweeted it to the devs, hopefully it's fixed in short order.

[Cooper]

Ugh. Turning a baseline ability into a talent and making Fel Eruption and Felblade compete seem like fairly significant - and rather nonsensical - nerfs to me. Like when I try to figure out why Blizz would do this, the first thing that comes to mind is that too many people were taking Fel Eruption and instead of making the other talents in that tier as appealing, they just moved it to make it compete with another already appealing talent, but that left them with a hole so rather than come up with a new talent, they just made a somewhat niche baseline ability a talent.

I mean, as far as I know nobody was bragging about Vengeance's single target damage.

[Redmage]

I really don't like chains becoming a talent. I can live with the other changes.

[the boar]

I really don't like chains becoming a talent. I can live with the other changes.

i don't like it, but i can understand it.. it is a pretty op baseline ability to have. but i am glad misery remains!

[redfella]

Blizzard logic: Let's take the 2nd worst tank class and nerf it further.

I'm at a loss of words.

[Deleted]

This is actually a bit annoying because I find this spec to be unplayable without Felblade (it's simply not interesting enough). So basically all they've done is taken Fel Eruption away. I really enjoy Vengeance DH WITH Felblade, but without it, it really sucks. They need to make Felblade baseline.

[Orloth]

They didn't nerf our mitigation. They nerfed our utility, which was quite strong. Consider: They may be targeting our utility and AOE tanking, before bringing our single target tanking up to match the other tanks.

[Delimit]

They didn't nerf our mitigation. They nerfed our utility, which was quite strong. Consider: They may be targeting our utility and AOE tanking, before bringing our single target tanking up to match the other tanks.

It accomplished neither of those.

[Orloth]

It was a hotfix, not a patch. Wait and see.

[Delimit]

"Hotfix" no longer means, fixing things. It's a catch all term to describe on the fly patching, which is what they're doing at this point. Their "patching" is happening through "hotfixes" when at all possible. They've said as much. I'm not sure why the difference matters though?

[redfella]

They can tweak class balance on the fly. I just hope they will fix our ST before launch and also fix our mitigation on fights that need to be tanked from start to finish. DS needs to be 100% or we need armor.

[Deleted]

They can tweak class balance on the fly. I just hope they will fix our ST before launch and also fix our mitigation on fights that need to be tanked from start to finish. DS needs to be 100% or we need armor.

Are DH really that bad?
Im Going to Tank with a Prot paladin in raids, Is the gap that big between those classes?
Since we got this insane Selfhealing, but no mitigation pretty much?

[Munkky]

"Insane"

/10char