New Mark of Honor system blows :(

[Deleted]

The gear from BGs is inferior as it will not have set bonuses like the LFR/herocis and order halls counterparts. And it is mostly versatility gear.

Those bonuses will be deactivated on Battlegrounds. And gear is not that important anymore, pvp talents are much more the deciding factor. And guess who will have all their pvp talents quicker: Those with lfr or the pvp guy ?

[Mafic]

Those bonuses will be deactivated on Battlegrounds. And gear is not that important anymore, pvp talents are much more the deciding factor. And guess who will have all their pvp talents quicker: Those with lfr or the pvp guy ?

Those bonuses matter when you are out in the world away from PVP instances though grinding for PVE.

Artifact weapons currently scale in instanced PVP so those that do the most PVE farming will do the most damage in PVP. Honor talents to unlock all of them take max one week.

Artifact grind on the other hand is a months, and months of a grind.

[Osmeric]

Those bonuses will be deactivated on Battlegrounds. And gear is not that important anymore, pvp talents are much more the deciding factor. And guess who will have all their pvp talents quicker: Those with lfr or the pvp guy ?

Casuals who were doing PvP to get gear for PvE will mostly stop doing PvP. They have no motivation to do PvP for its own sake.

[Deleted]

Casuals who were doing PvP to get gear for PvE will mostly stop doing PvP. They have no motivation to do PvP for its own sake.

Would love that. Most pve scrubs tend to suck at the bgs .

[Osmeric]

Would love that. Most pve scrubs tend to suck at the bgs .

And I think some PvE players will like it too. Some people are just repelled by PvP and will not do it even if it's on their optimal gearing path.

Reducing the utility of PvP for PvE gearing was likely a big design point for Legion, I think.

[Deleted]

Would love that. Most pve scrubs tend to suck at the bgs .

I think I'll love the first BGs I'll be doing in the next addon, and the people crying in the chat because I've got absolutely no fucking idea what to do.
That's why Alterac was one of my favourite BGs: "OMG who tapped Snowfall? Noobs! Everything is lost! This is worse than the Holocaust!"

[Thirstblood]

The mark of honor sucks rly... While pugging with 5 decent people in group and join, The teamwork of 10+, 15+, 20, 40+ players BLOWS when it comes to constantly losing steak and doesn't feel rewarding for losing. 1 loss for mark of honor and win for 3 marks of honors.

[barrsftw]

Except the issue is after ~150 attempt at a boss you would probably get it down and on farm and get loot every week. That doesn't occur in PvP....you might be the best in the world, but you can't carry bad.

Also people may not say "lose fast and go to next game" anymore but the result is the same. How do you think people got that way in the first place? No one just starting PvPing one day and said I'm not going to try, but after trying for a long time and losing anyway you get to that point. The result hasn't changed. Before lose fast and move on, end result = lose. Now, try hard, end result = lose.

On average I lose 4/5 BGs to ally. So what have I started doing? I started to BG on my ally instead.

Run BGs with a group instead of solo. You can't compare them to raids if you aren't willing to join with a group. If you queue for BGs with 5 good players you will win the majority of your BGs I guarentee it.

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I haven't been in a single BG tight enough to feel like I, personally, could make a difference.

Really? I feel like a decent percentage of my BGs I directly affect whether we win or lose. I've singlehandedly capped flags and/or ninjaed/defended bases that have lead to our victory. Maybe I'm just arrogant.

[Mozanrath]

I actually like the new system.

[Caolela]

Really? I feel like a decent percentage of my BGs I directly affect whether we win or lose. I've singlehandedly capped flags and/or ninjaed/defended bases that have lead to our victory. Maybe I'm just arrogant.

Yes, it could have been due to something one player did like getting that clutch cap or flag needed just in time for a win. However, what you "feel like" may not be the actual facts.

Most likely it is also all of the other things that happen during a match that contribute to a win, like the other people who were attacking/defending 1 or 2 other bases while you were defending yours, or that had a cap besides your cap.

The point is that it's a team effort. Rarely is it just a single player that wins a BG on his/her own from start to finish, unless the others are all AFK or bots.

Maybe I'm just arrogant.

Probably true, which is what a lot of WoW players are. Many think they're special and very highly "skilled" when actually they're at best slightly above average and/or simply play as they're supposed to (playing for objectives).

[Mafic]

Blizzard has already stated that normal BGs will have gear on par with LFR/Heroics

They are liars straight up,

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I have yet to receive a mark from losing a game, even close games in AB that were like 1480-1500. While I have a winning record when doing BGs as Horde I do know people who struggle to win and therefore gear. Totally hate how you can have an evenly matched game and get 0 rewards for it.

It is going to be worse when artifact power is on the line.

[Eats Compost]

Really? I feel like a decent percentage of my BGs I directly affect whether we win or lose. I've singlehandedly capped flags and/or ninjaed/defended bases that have lead to our victory. Maybe I'm just arrogant.

My experience so far is that even when I'm performing at the top of my game, it's just too much of a numbers game for my skill to be making a real difference. For example, 2v1 almost always ends the same way regardless of skill disparity, with the only real change occurring at extremes. That's especially relevant to the flow of a lot of BGs where flag capping and small subgroups are prevalent.

Combine that with stat templates and rock/paper/scissors on a class-by-class basis, and it pretty much always feels like dumb luck regardless of what I did. That's not to say that either of those things are bad (stat templates are fantastic) but they do remove a lot of an individual's ability to make an impact in a BG. WoW PvP is still relatively skill-light too (at least in 1v1 or mindless group mashfests), so a lot of the distinction between meh, good and great players just turns into white noise.

That's not to say that BGs aren't or can't be fun, but this all comes back to the reward structure. Getting nothing for a loss that the individual couldn't do anything about feels really bad. That's why games like HotS and Overwatch only offer a marginal bonus for wins in unranked games (with most of it being a participation award), and it's why making a win/loss the cutoff point only really works in Arena-esque premade small-group environments where an individual will have much more agency and teamwork to deal with.

I suspect that one of Blizzard's motives was to disincentive botting by making winning more important than participation, but I doubt that anyone who was botting is going to stop. Not when the honor system overhaul provides huge incentives for players to endlessly bot and prestige their PvP level.

[goblingirl]

They should change this to what it was in Classic - 1 mark for a loss, 3 marks for a win. Everyone makes progress, but you get there a ton faster if you get off your ass and win.

As noted above they probably thought by not rewarding the loser at all, they would impact botting... but with prestige, people will bot even if they get 0 marks ever.

[genmyster]

The WoW forums are filled with whining kids and really really angry people. If your using the WoW forums to judge anything, then your doing it wrong.

I dont think its harsh to like a system that rewards people for winning and gives you nothing for losing, especially since you have the option to create a group of 5 on your own, which means you get to pick and choose what classes you want, healers and dps, etc. Its not hard to get a winning group together...

It is quite easy for you to sit there and say "i Like the system, and hate the whining kids" when you are fully geared pissing all over everyone who is without gear. You took advantage of the last system like everyone else and If you were struggling for gear you would be crying your brains out. There are plenty of people who just returned and will be returning after a long break from the game who are trying to get geared and this format is garbage for doing it.

The premade absolutely helps, I love getting a group of 5 and just mowing people down together while following the objective. I usually get 1 or 2 healers and 3 dps when I do a premade.

If there is anything in this PVP system which is broken it is 5 man groups in a bg. There is no other random pug in any other game out there that allows for 5 man teams in a group of 10 - 15. 3 is the most you will ever see in any other legitimate Multi-player pvp game. I see match after match getting steamrolled by this garbage. Also every other pvp based game rewards somewhat even for a loss. You can not expect a player base to approve of 30,40 even 50 min battleground for 0 return. They will not pvp anymore. Maybe this is what Blizzard wants.


You also compared your raiding experience to PVP Random Battlegrounds. There is no way to legitimately compare the two and here is why:

1. There are totally different Mechanics between the two. PVE is scripted and PVP is completely random, especially in a BG.

Every boss fight you know what is going to happen. Where to stand where not to stand. What classes to leave at the entrance and what you need to be successful. It is either a stupidity check or a gear check. The good news about raiding is if you have somebody who sucks you kick him out after a wipe. You cant do that in a Random BG you are stuck with what you got. In a random BG you may not have a healer. You may not have ranged or mele. Hell you may not have a full team. People AFK, Disconnected, going off to hide in a corner some with the wrong gear on, some with no gear on, some in the wrong spec, some that just want to troll their group. This would never fly in a Guild based raid. So like i said anything that is considered to be "RANDOM" should pay you some form of compensation for dealing with this garbage.

2. Everyone in a raid group filled of Guild members has a vested interest in the completion of the raid. In a Random BG there isn't 1 player that can give a damn about who you are because after the 10 min is up they don't have to know you anymore. I am not sure if you have ever been in an LFR before but that is what goes on there as well. And you are rewarded in an LFR on every boss fight and every trash kill.

3. In a Raid you still get loot. It may not be what you want but there is gold and silver you are looting in every raid on every boss and trash. (Unless you never kill trash. I can relate to that after wiping on trash over the years of raiding I have done.) PVP random battle grounds you get NOTHING!!!! Unless you win.

4. Arena and Rated Battle Grounds are the only thing close to the Raiding for PVP. The mechanics are more scripted in Arena and Rated BGs. You get to choose who you want to play with. You should and do have a person leading the group. If you have a problem with someone in the group not following directions you can leave them at the door especially if it is costing you time and gold. Therefore it should and does follow the same payment schedule as a Raid - you must be successful in order to get rewarded. BTW the rewards for conquest points were always way better than Honor points.


The bottom line is and you may disagree because you "THINK" it is not fair to get something for nothing, but if players are not compensated for putting up with a crappy match making system in a random battleground situation they will stop playing again. There will be more subs lost. The game will not progress and you too will be whining on the forums over super long queue times not gear.

[Taeldorian]

It is quite easy for you to sit there and say "i Like the system, and hate the whining kids" when you are fully geared pissing all over everyone who is without gear. You took advantage of the last system like everyone else and If you were struggling for gear you would be crying your brains out. There are plenty of people who just returned and will be returning after a long break from the game who are trying to get geared and this format is garbage for doing it.


The bottom line is and you may disagree because you "THINK" it is not fair to get something for nothing, but if players are not compensated for putting up with a crappy match making system in a random battleground situation they will stop playing again. There will be more subs lost. The game will not progress and you too will be whining on the forums over super long queue times not gear.

@ the second bold part. Just make a damn premade. I wasnt talking about raids in my post, and if I did, I was comparing forming a team. I always put together premades and even join them whenever I feel like doing a Bg.

It basically gets rid of the randomized match making part since you will have a guaranteed pocket healer and 4 good dps which can easily win a BG. I dont understand why you talk about it being randomized when theres an option for you to make a team of 5 good players (meaning 1 dedicated pocket healer and 4 good dps usually} who can most likely carry the BG your in if you get really bad players for the rest of your team.

Use the premade group finder. Use trade chat. Join premades and/or make your own. It really isnt hard and it combats the randomized MM system we have for BGs. If you say that forming or joining a group isnt for you, then maybe you shouldnt be playing an Mmorpg.

@ the first bold part- Im also not talking about the gearing system, Im talking about marks of honor which is not how we gear for pvp in Legion, its just to get old transmog pvp sets, so Im not going to address any other points you made. This isnt a format for gearing, so I think youre a bit lost on how the marks of honor system works.

You dont use marks of honor to purchase gear in Legion, you get gear based on your rating from lootboxes, but gear hardly affects how you play in pvp since we have stat templates and such, so the better gear you have doesnt really make as much of a difference as it used to, not even close.

[Eggroll]

They should change this to what it was in Classic - 1 mark for a loss, 3 marks for a win. Everyone makes progress, but you get there a ton faster if you get off your ass and win.

As noted above they probably thought by not rewarding the loser at all, they would impact botting... but with prestige, people will bot even if they get 0 marks ever.

This, on the other hand, Mark of Honor is bound to your account, not your character. What annoys me is that you don't get anything for WINNING a non random BG. ...

[Slirith]

Will cheerfully admit I /afk from games with zero healers

[Snegovik]

In my own exp, the outcome of majority of the BGs are decided by skill - level of players on my team or lack of such. Healers, tanks, pre mades make games easier, but untimely game is decided by skill of players especially in a casual BGs, where most ppl are either gearing, learning new spec, or just trying out pvp for the 1st time; hence, most players can not even 2v1 or 3v1 a skilled fully geared PvPer who is playing a "1-man" army class. Pre 7.0 patch few of those classes were Boomies, Rets for example, who could definitely carry a 10 man BG.

While people who are playing classes such as Warriors, who are not that great in solo casual pvp or still learning or gearing, best thing you can do is form a pre-made, until you gear up and increase pvp skill. Both aspects of the game PvE and PvP should take time to achieve wanted objective whether its gear, r1 or world 1st. It is silly to complain about losing if you are not trying hard enough to win on 1st place either forming a pre made or acquire skill/gear to enable you turn a tide of a BG.

Also, do not forget that those pvp tokens are purely meant for cosmetics in Legion, this is not how ppl will be obtaining their gear, there will be a random drop change in the box from a bg to gain a piece of loot. So every1 who is worried about being able to gear up in Legion, do not worry since Marks of Honors won't purchase you any gear, but the random boxes you get from BGs.

[Dundebuns]

Spent an hour on the Horde and got a single win/mark. Realised they were BoA, leapt to my alliance character and earned 2 in 15 mins. New helm

[Deleted]

doesn't feel rewarding for losing.

That's... good? Why the hell would you be rewarded for losing?