Buff heroic or make 10 man mythic

[Feii]

The reason why raiding guilds fell apart is 100% the fact they removed 10 man mythic. It killed my guild, it killed countless others, and yes bringing 10 man mythic back would fix it...

Pretty much the same. We have cleared the HC and then never had ppl for mythic. Im always playing with a group of friends (10-12 ppl sometimes more) and we're really not intrested in getting another 13 players to be able to progress mythic.

I am fully aware that 20 man mythics are better optimized etc. I get it, no more arguing over who had world first (10 man vs 25 ) but i really dont care about any of it. I would be 100% ok if 10 man mythic were releasedm to the public 1-2 months after the initial 20 man release. For how long HFC is going now? 14th month? They could have tune it up a little bit to be 10 man without any big struggle.

[Glaziola]

you can not remove 10 man mhytic if it never existed in the first place, maybe you remembering something else

Back in the old days something called "Heroic" existed and is the current form of Mythic, so thats what he means. 10 man heroic which would equal to 10 man mythic in todays standards.

[Flurryfang]

i agree with both of your posts but i would stil argue that raiding one ups every expansion when it comes too mechanics and tuning so i would say it has also to do that it become harder and many people can not deal with that

I also agree with you Raiding is complicated and it often requires many things to line up for people to invest great time in it. Having the content be too hard or the game not being rewarding enough for the time investment, pretty much gives the same result. You will have players, who will quit raiding because it no longer fufill their need.

I just think that good content outside of the raiding instance, can compensate for hard encounters. It makes it easier to keep going back and wipe all night, since you have "relaxed" all day. Back in Wrath, i had many nights where hard content, for my specific guild, led to constant wiping. One of the reasons why i still attended was because i did other things in the game with my guildes, such as dailies, pvp and farming for raid mats. If that had not been there, i would proberly only had logged in for raiding, after i had lvled up.... This would proberly have ended with me quitting, since there were better things to do with my nights

Edit: Quick addition here: I will also say, that stuff that increases social interaction and better guild environments would make it easier to raid. Some people really need a good relationship with their raiding buddies, before they are ready to put time into the game.

[Deleted]

Ok guilds fell apart because they could not recruit. Why so? Why in a 4 million player community can't a guild form a group of 20? Because their leaders were LAZY.

How many times have you seen this add: The Wanabees recruit ppl for HFC mythic. Need 740 ilvl, skill with your class and mythic exp 10/13. How many ppl do you think is ready for this and eager to leave their mythic guild for yours? Very little. So the recruiter stops recruiting because he finds noone. So the guild dies.

And now the fault is on 20man system. Not on the guilds who could recruit for mythic but with ilvl 720 and willing to learn, losing some raids equiping new bloods. No. It was too much work. Just ask for 740, hit the reality wall, close your guild, blame 20man.

Good radiance I say to this guilds. I prefer 3 guilds with 20 raiders and a group of leaders who work hard and treat their raiders minimally well than 30 10man projects who abuse their non friends and cry for nerfs in the forums when they hit a wall.

[Glaziola]

seeeeeeeriously doubt that m8, thats like saying something like mhytic dungeons existing back then and its the current form of mhytic + dugenons now. Heroic from before has nothing to do with mhytic raiding we have now, everyone who raids mhytic knows that

I'm not raiding mythic so I can't argue, but I'm pretty sure that Siege of Orgrimmar used to have LFR, Flex, Normal, Heroic modes which turned into LFR, Normal, Heroic, Mythic.

[Feii]

And now the fault is on 20man system. Not on the guilds who could recruit for mythic but with ilvl 720 and willing to learn, losing some raids equiping new bloods. No. It was too much work. Just ask for 740, hit the reality wall, close your guild, blame 20man.

Havent you consider that there are people who enjoy better playing in a smaller group? With closer circle of friends? Keep in mind that 20 people for mythic raiding guild is not even close. To fill up all tho spots always u need at least 25, cause there will always be someone absent.

[potis]

They just did what the raiding scene asked, balanced the "race".

Plus it was logical, half bosses were easier in 10man, other half easier in 25man cause of abilities.

Guilds die cause most players are bad, nothing else, there will always be that boss where you require personal responsibility or overall performance of a higher level and that guild simply cant deliver.

It happened since Vanilla,major problem right now is that 1-2 bosses in Heroic are harder than 2-5 bosses in Mythic giving "medium skill" guilds a fake hope.

[Flower Milk]

They just did what the raiding scene asked, balanced the "race".

Plus it was logical, half bosses were easier in 10man, other half easier in 25man cause of abilities.

Guilds die cause most players are bad, nothing else, there will always be that boss where you require personal responsibility or overall performance of a higher level and that guild simply cant deliver.

It happened since Vanilla,major problem right now is that 1-2 bosses in Heroic are harder than 2-5 bosses in Mythic giving "medium skill" guilds a fake hope.

That's not the "raiding scene", that is the top 1% of raiders.

[Deleted]

Yes, but here we were discusing guilds who clossed for not being able to be 20 raiders, not if players enjoyed to ONLY play with 4, 9, 19 or 39 other ppl so they left if that number was not fulfilled. Clearly with 20man myth continuing in legion signs that Blizzard has told to the ppl who enjoy ONLY playing with 9 others to shut up and accept 20man raids or the new 5man tiered dungeons (if they happen to be any hard at the end)

[potis]

That's not the "raiding scene", that is the top 1% of raiders.

No it isnt, its the same as football, or any sport, only a few people play and thousands have an opinion and follow it.

I agree with you that many "10man" guilds quit because of the change, or you could simply accept it and raid up to heroic.

As i mentioned above, as we have seen in WoD, 2-3 of the last heroic bosses are harder than 40-60% of Mythic bosses, obviously not the same but you get my point.

Guilds in WoD didnt die because of 10man mythic,did a few quit because it doesnt exist? Yes...but the guilds in WoD died because:

1)Weak link players became more obvious now that it was 20 people and the raids were scaled to 25..No room for scrubs on certain bosses..See Gorefiend in HFC.

2)Lets face it, WoD was quite boring and as someone already mentioned most of these guilds have really bad leaders, they dont recruit skill or experience, they recruit item level.

Its just bad guilds dying off as they would either way.

10man guilds from MoP either adapted or quit tbh.

[Hoofey]

seeeeeeeriously doubt that m8, thats like saying something like mhytic dungeons existing back then and its the current form of mhytic + dugenons now. Heroic from before has nothing to do with mhytic raiding we have now, everyone who raids mhytic knows that

Not sure if serious..

The heroic raids from Cata-MoP was the equivalent of todays mythic raids, both 10 and 25 man. The reason they changed it to 20 man and renamed it mythic was due to balance issues, was too much work to balance both 10 and 25 man.

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

Back in the old days something called "Heroic" existed and is the current form of Mythic, so thats what he means. 10 man heroic which would equal to 10 man mythic in todays standards.

Yeah now tell me something i don't already know.

[Deleted]

Since they introduced 10-man raids (back in vanilla, with the "super dungeons") I've always thought that 10-15 people are the best for a friendly environment, and I think 15 better than 10, so you could have at least 1 char from each class to bring things (burst, aoe, cleave, etc)

[Xenyatta]

I have been playing for 11 years and if there was just a 10 man mythic option I'd quit. It's not a raid... it's a glorified 5 man. It's not fun.

[Hoofey]

If you think MoP/Cata Heroic Raids are equal hard then WOD mhytics, dont know you "serious", because they are not, did you even do them?

Yes I did. I have raided since vanilla and I know how the difficulty level has progressed over the years. While not pushing for world first ranks, I do have a few Cutting Edge achievements to show for. I have raided both heroic 10 and 25, and 20 man mythic in WoD.

The real question here is whether you raided back then, because by the looks of it, I seriously doubt it.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

If you can't find 20 people you don't need to be raiding.
The reason guilds were falling apart was because this expansion was a joke, and no matter how good the PVE was, you would get bored of it eventually.

Its an unfortunate thing, to fear change this badly.
Wonder what you and others did from Classic to Wrath?

[SL1200]

No, that's what mythic is for. Leave the rest of us be. I don't want harder raids.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Not sure if serious..

The heroic raids from Cata-MoP was the equivalent of todays mythic raids, both 10 and 25 man. The reason they changed it to 20 man and renamed it mythic was due to balance issues, was too much work to balance both 10 and 25 man.

For the conversation going on here, I'd like to join in and say that this is correct.
Its done for balancing issues, not to simply add another difficulty on top of that.
Heroic Garrosh and Mythic Archimonde were equally difficult in my eyes, minus how the ring factored into it.

The difference was 10 and 25 man presented many balancing issues which made one fight easier on 10 and harder on 25 and vice versa. These are no longer present, thankfully.

[Hoofey]

Then you should know mhytic is harder, simply as that.

Harder as in better tuned? - Yes, maybe.
Harder as in taking longer to defeat each boss because of gear checks and insane mechanical difficulties? - No.

Top guilds usually spend 2-3 weeks beating new content, and thats how its been for many years now.
Ask the guys who raided Firelands back in Cata if Ragnaros was an easy boss and how he compares to todays bosses.

[camicio]

Guilds will always, no matter the raid size, have trouble getting enough players for their guilds. People leave for better guilds, people quit for numerous reasons, so it is always hard to fill a raid roster. Unless the games playerbase is increased by 150%, then doing the 10 man mythic thing is not gonna do anything other then making mythic less awesome. Raiding is always more epic when there is more people, so by cutting the team in half is gonna be a heavy price to pay for maybe a few guilds on each server being able to go mythic.

But i think you are missing something here. A lot of people are not really that into the entire mythic experience, where you min-max your character, get the spec with the highest possible dps/healing and go raiding 3-5 times a week just to be able to get the boss into their fingers. There is no reason to make it easier to get into mythic, because the people who really want to raid mythic, and who can get far in that difficulty with skill, are often ready to find a guild, with people who can do that difficulty. Most heroic difficulty guilds will never get very far in mythic, since it requires so much work and their playerbase is simply not hardcore enough.

When you go to many of these forums, quite a lot of the posters are semi-hardcore players complaining that they can't get up and compete with the hardcore crowd. They say, that they really want the content, but they will fail at the content with laughing results. So, as there has been said many times before, if you don't have the time, energy or will to recruit enough people to go mythic, then you would not do well even if it was 10 man.

All in all, don't try to downsize raiding just because you can't gather the people. Don't complain to blizzard around the raid size, but more about the amount of free players on your servers. It will be a sad day if Blizzard ever does away with 20 man mythic raiding, because it will pretty much remove the last awesomeness of WoW raiding.

This guy has basically hit the nail on the head. I don't want to spend too much time making a long winded post about it however i would just like to point out the OP's request to make heroic harder or decrease mythic to 10 man is ludicrous. I was in a top 10 guild on my server a world top 250 guild. The difference in difficulty between heroic and mythic is fairly large and it really does require for lack of a better term, good players.

Now this is where my post is going to transform into a hurling of insults so pepper your angus.

If your guild can't handle keeping 20 people together it is because the people you recruited are bad and they couldn't handle the difficulty of mythic because the truth of the matter is most nights it is a 3 hour grind fest on one boss until it is dead or you do it again the next day for another 3 hours. Mythic blackhand was basically 15 hours of death until you could figure out how to not die. I stopped after that because the truth is I couldn't handle it either it was just too much. This was with a group of very strong players. If you were in a guild that was above world 500 ranking it would of taken even longer and the players are substantially worse. I know this because I changed from a sub 500 top a top 250.

So to sum up. Guilds that can't keep it together had bad players in it and they will never keep it together. They will lose good players to better guilds, they will replace bad players and lazy players will just quit. A buff in heroic will not help because the same will happen, lose good players to better guilds and they will replace bad players. That is how the cycle of life works. Any one in the realm of raiding mythic difficulty (because this topic is about 10 many mythic isn't it?) will not stay in a bad group unless they themselves are bad in which case they will eventually quit.

I for one hope bilzzard do not cater to these types of people.