Abilities that you think should not have survived the ability purge, for pvp sake.

[Deleted]

After the ability purge that took place in 7.0.3, I would say that some classes got purged more than others.
And some abilities make me wonder if they should have survived the purge at all.

What abilities should not have made it through the purge according to you?

I would say Cloak of Shadows for Rogues should not have made it through. Or at least not as something that goes beyond simply removing magical dots (so they can Vanish).
The fact that they can be immune for magic for 5 seconds on top of their already amazing CC and damage-avoiding abilities makes it a bit too much in the current playing field. Imo.

[Sin Cara]

They lost prep, but it was obvious this would be an anti rogue thread before I clicked it.
What else makes them avoid damage from magic specifically? Rogues lost double sprint, evasion, vanish, smoke bomb (sub pvp talent), burst of speed, etc.
Assassination doesn't have blind or gouge.

Cloak of shadows was put in during TBC and is an iconic ability now.
You gave pretty much no compelling reasons for your argument. I know it's just your opinion and you're entitled to that, but I don't think anyone would really agree with you.

[Deleted]

Remove cloak... What?

Anti Magic Shell
Diffuse Magic
Reverse Magic
Ice Block
Divine Shield
... a few examples of similar mechanics.

As a melee, counter playing spell-casters at certain points is important. It would be ridiculous for everybody to just die to dots, or lose out to that fear that couldn't be interrupted. It's an important part of the arms race.

In fact, cloak is strong but the weakest of the mentioned abilities. It wipes dots and allows the rogue to use his own mechanics again. Diffuse, Reverse send the effects back to the originator. AMS gives the DK more damage, and if talented an explosion of damage.

Bad thread.

[dippinsawse]

Remove cloak... What?

Anti Magic Shell
Diffuse Magic
Reverse Magic
Ice Block
Divine Shield
... a few examples of similar mechanics.

As a melee, counter playing spell-casters at certain points is important. It would be ridiculous for everybody to just die to dots, or lose out to that fear that couldn't be interrupted. It's an important part of the arms race.

In fact, cloak is strong but the weakest of the mentioned abilities. It wipes dots and allows the rogue to use his own mechanics again. Diffuse, Reverse send the effects back to the originator. AMS gives the DK more damage, and if talented an explosion of damage.

Bad thread.

Are you serious? Cloak of Shadows is by far the best. It's baseline and gives full immunity. Diffuse and Reverse are talents and not even quite the same thing. Diffuse is just garbage, the "reflect" is borderline pointless since it only works well in some matchups, can't work for personal CC, and avoids far less damage than cloak. Reverse doesn't even reduce any damage taken, it just dispels and reflects the effects. So as a personal defense tool it is vastly inferior to cloak of shadows....its main use is for breaking CC from your healer but again that's not even something it competes with cloak of shadows for.

[Deleted]

Are you serious? Cloak of Shadows is by far the best. It's baseline and gives full immunity. Diffuse and Reverse are talents and not even quite the same thing. Diffuse is just garbage, the dispel is bordline pointless since it only works well in some matchups, can't work for personal CC, and avoids far less damage than cloak. Reverse doesn't even reduce any damage taken, it just dispels and reflects the effects. So as a personal defense tool it is vastly inferior to cloak of shadows....its main use is for breaking CC from your healer but again that's not even something it competes with cloak of shadows for.

My point is, CloS exists to allow the rogue another chance to use his mechanics again, Yes the immunity post DoT-wipe is strong. It's a requirement for the rogue class to function though.

How amazing it would be to sit there with that 40 second corruption, waiting in a corner somewhere until you can use your core mechanics again.

[wholol]

I always find it hilarious how people can argue about which abilities shoulda been pruned when there are still things such as unending breath, enslave demon/undead , mind vision, levitate , water walking etc.

I mean blizzard can remove core abilities that players have been using for years and justify that by saying "it wasn't really needed" when the above is still there for "flavor" or whatever.

[minteK917]

Rogue has not functioned once since vanilla without cloak of shadows. Because before TBC, PVP as a rogue was literally this: Get raid gear, Ambush, win. If its a geared warrior dont come out of stealth. Often other classes seems to think of cloak has a defensive ability like divine shield, but its nothing like that. Cloak is a control tool, just like kidney shot. It prevents you from stopping the rogue from doing what he is supposed to do for 5 seconds. Its made even more evident by all the MoP and WoD babies posting about it like they would be talking about shield wall before this patch. My guess is OP is one of those hundred DH i baited into chaos novaing my cloak and then they just sit there like outplayed dumbass. Has to be one of these.

[Saberstrike]

The thing about flavour spells is there's literally no one in the game that would go "OMG MIND VISION IS SO RETARDED AND OP ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO BALANCE" -- also flavour spells make classes feel unique. They were never the problem.

However, actual 'power' spells that are redundant / stupidly designed -are- very much a problem; What I would prune in the current state of the game:

> Interrupt immunities.

> Vanish -- with buffs to rogue survivability and maybe 20s off of cloak of shadows cooldown to make restealthing easier by playing SMART (stun enemy -> shake dots -> run behind pillar -> wait to drop combat), rather than smashing the button and winning by pure skill.

> Stormbolt / Shockwave -- As an olden time warrior player myself it is my opinion that stuns don't fit the kit. I'd be ok with a spell like throwdown, but those two just don't belong. Warrior should pin a target down and smash it if allowed to remain near, not be a bouncy stun-ball with mediocre damage and sh*t defenses. Also, bring charge stun back!!

> Ice Block / Divine Shield. To me they feel like archaic mechanics that made sense in their day when mage had really poor sustainability / paladin was generally non-threatening. At this point in the game they're just annoying. I'd add aspect to the turtle here as well, but eh... I'm just happy spirit bond got pruned so hunters actually die if you pressure them long enough.

> Druid shapeshifting removing roots / snares. Same as above -- archaic mechanic from when the class was generally bad. Shouldn't exist in the current iteration.

> Every man for himself -- No matter what they do with it it'll always be overpowered.

> Tauren racials. With HP getting higher and higher and higher as the game goes on the tauren HP bonus makes them noticably tanky; Combine it with a class like resto druid and you get a racial that really shatters a sense of balance by making the resto-cow even more immortal than it would've been otherwise.

Also since a lot of cc was pruned the stun feels really powerful. Maybe too powerful.

[minteK917]

The thing about flavour spells is there's literally no one in the game that would go "OMG MIND VISION IS SO RETARDED AND OP ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO BALANCE" -- also flavour spells make classes feel unique. They were never the problem.

However, actual 'power' spells that are redundant / stupidly designed -are- very much a problem; What I would prune in the current state of the game:

> Interrupt immunities.

> Vanish -- with buffs to rogue survivability and maybe 20s off of cloak of shadows cooldown to make restealthing easier by playing SMART (stun enemy -> shake dots -> run behind pillar -> wait to drop combat), rather than smashing the button and winning by pure skill.

> Stormbolt / Shockwave -- As an olden time warrior player myself it is my opinion that stuns don't fit the kit. I'd be ok with a spell like throwdown, but those two just don't belong. Warrior should pin a target down and smash it if allowed to remain near, not be a bouncy stun-ball with mediocre damage and sh*t defenses. Also, bring charge stun back!!

> Ice Block / Divine Shield. To me they feel like archaic mechanics that made sense in their day when mage had really poor sustainability / paladin was generally non-threatening. At this point in the game they're just annoying. I'd add aspect to the turtle here as well, but eh... I'm just happy spirit bond got pruned so hunters actually die if you pressure them long enough.

> Druid shapeshifting removing roots / snares. Same as above -- archaic mechanic from when the class was generally bad. Shouldn't exist in the current iteration.

> Every man for himself -- No matter what they do with it it'll always be overpowered.

> Tauren racials. With HP getting higher and higher and higher as the game goes on the tauren HP bonus makes them noticably tanky; Combine it with a class like resto druid and you get a racial that really shatters a sense of balance by making the resto-cow even more immortal than it would've been otherwise.

Also since a lot of cc was pruned the stun feels really powerful. Maybe too powerful.

I think removing vanish is too much work, rogue defensive and offensive abilities would need massive overhaul do to that, Too much control abilities are tied to it, damage buffs, survivability. Literally have to redo evert aspect of rogues just to remove that one spell, sounds like too much work for nothing.

[Demsi]

The thing about flavour spells is there's literally no one in the game that would go "OMG MIND VISION IS SO RETARDED AND OP ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO BALANCE" -- also flavour spells make classes feel unique. They were never the problem.

However, actual 'power' spells that are redundant / stupidly designed -are- very much a problem; What I would prune in the current state of the game:

> Interrupt immunities.

> Vanish -- with buffs to rogue survivability and maybe 20s off of cloak of shadows cooldown to make restealthing easier by playing SMART (stun enemy -> shake dots -> run behind pillar -> wait to drop combat), rather than smashing the button and winning by pure skill.

> Stormbolt / Shockwave -- As an olden time warrior player myself it is my opinion that stuns don't fit the kit. I'd be ok with a spell like throwdown, but those two just don't belong. Warrior should pin a target down and smash it if allowed to remain near, not be a bouncy stun-ball with mediocre damage and sh*t defenses. Also, bring charge stun back!!

> Ice Block / Divine Shield. To me they feel like archaic mechanics that made sense in their day when mage had really poor sustainability / paladin was generally non-threatening. At this point in the game they're just annoying. I'd add aspect to the turtle here as well, but eh... I'm just happy spirit bond got pruned so hunters actually die if you pressure them long enough.

> Druid shapeshifting removing roots / snares. Same as above -- archaic mechanic from when the class was generally bad. Shouldn't exist in the current iteration.

> Every man for himself -- No matter what they do with it it'll always be overpowered.

> Tauren racials. With HP getting higher and higher and higher as the game goes on the tauren HP bonus makes them noticably tanky; Combine it with a class like resto druid and you get a racial that really shatters a sense of balance by making the resto-cow even more immortal than it would've been otherwise.

Also since a lot of cc was pruned the stun feels really powerful. Maybe too powerful.

Every man for himself only removes stun effects, it's garbage now

[minteK917]

Every man for himself only removes stun effects, it's garbage now

Removing the strongest form of CC is garbage..... I mean undead gets to remove fear/sleep/charm for the same cooldown.....Yeah ill keep the removal for the CC that doesent break on damage.

[Saberstrike]

I think removing vanish is too much work, rogue defensive and offensive abilities would need massive overhaul do to that, Too much control abilities are tied to it, damage buffs, survivability. Literally have to redo evert aspect of rogues just to remove that one spell, sounds like too much work for nothing.

Not really. Evasion / Riposte / Cloak / Vial are already some of the most potent defensives in the game; kidney shot / between the eyes are the strongest stun in the game, with the lowest cooldown in the game. And as I said -- it's not like you'll -lose- stealth. You'll just need to think how and when to use it, instead of going full yolo because you can just lolvanish if you get in trouble.

It may be an unpopular opinion but it is my firm belief that 'get outta sh*t for free' buttons are bad for the game. Vanish is one of them -- alongside ice block, bubble, aspect of the turtle. Much as I hate cloak I think the problem with cloak is that most rogues use it to vanish; So something needs to be done to break that combo which in 99% of cases can't be countered. Removing vanish is the easiest solution, that also won't make rogues a free kill for wizards.

[Demsi]

Removing the strongest form of CC is garbage..... I mean undead gets to remove fear/sleep/charm for the same cooldown.....Yeah ill keep the removal for the CC that doesent break on damage.

It's garbage because there is no way you would use it over your trinket, since they share a cooldown.

[minteK917]

It's garbage because there is no way you would use it over your trinket, since they share a cooldown.

30 second cooldown dummy. So you will def use it for stun. So that in 30 second you can use your real trinket for SOMETHING ELSE? Wow talk about some 1300 rating keyboard turning logic here. You get to remove the strongest form of CC twice, in 30 seconds. In short learn to play.

[Demsi]

30 second cooldown dummy. So you will def use it for stun. So that in 30 second you can use your real trinket for SOMETHING ELSE? Wow talk about some 1300 rating keyboard turning logic here. You get to remove the strongest form of CC twice, in 30 seconds. In short learn to play.

You're talking like stuns are the only form of cc in the game, you're saying that Every man for himself is OP, when it is very niche, and not nearly as strong as it's previous version.

[minteK917]

You're talking like stuns are the only form of cc in the game, you're saying that Every man for himself is OP, when it is very niche, and not nearly as strong as it's previous version.

Very niche in what way. You get to remove 2 CC in a 30 second window, while other races bar undead can only remove one. Yes removing the only Kill CC is very niche. Enjoy the challenger crap. Unless you are a mage, removing a stun is like the opposite of niche. Its the difference between dead or not dead.

Just because it was pants on retard OP before, doesent mean its trash. Its still the strongest racial on either faction for MOST classes in PVP.

[minteK917]

Shroud of concealment, mage stealth and hunter stealth.

Playing casual 2s is frustrating when it seems like over 50% of matches start with the other team completely stealthed. Fine, rogues and ferals should be stealthed, but the other stuff is just annoying.

Shroud of concealment does not exist anymore.

Hunter stealth is a talent most wont use because the alternatives are stronger.

[Dizzeeyooo]

Shroud of concealment does not exist anymore

Oh how nice. I looked it up on wowwiki and it was still there, guess they're slow updating it. Was stupid to add it in the first place.

yes it does still exist - they pruned the ability from rogues, reduced the cooldown from 5 mins to 3 mins and renamed it to "Darkness", then gave it to demon hunters

[minteK917]

yes it does still exist - they pruned the ability from rogues, reduced the cooldown from 5 mins to 3 mins and renamed it to "Darkness", then gave it to demon hunters

does not do the same thing, like at all lol.

[Dizzeeyooo]

does not do the same thing, like at all lol.

correct my mistake! mixed up shroud of concealment and smoke bomb =( (the aoe % damage reduction part anyway)

> Vanish -- with buffs to rogue survivability and maybe 20s off of cloak of shadows cooldown to make restealthing easier by playing SMART (stun enemy -> shake dots -> run behind pillar -> wait to drop combat), rather than smashing the button and winning by pure skill

sounds like you should be asking for them to restore the pre cata version of vanish, rather then removing the ability completely