Turkey threatens to leave NATO

[Army Dreamer]

Please do. The sooner the better.

[Forogil]

@Forogil, @Skroo,

Let me just spill it out, it might sound like a crazy conspiracy theory, it could be but sometimes makes too much sense. Gulen is a elementary-school graduate ruling an educational empire in Caucasus, Turkey as well as Middle East. How is it even possible?

That's easy to explain: the one running the school doesn't have to be a teacher. Some people see the value of education - even if they haven't had it themselves. There can, of course, also be another explanation.

However, my only point was that the extradition process will likely be lengthy (and messy).
--

- Europe has money, no energy. Without energy in Europe, USA can't get their money. That energy needs to flow to Europe.

"No energy" is to exaggerate.
Europe only imports about half its energy - mostly from Russia.
I haven't looked closely but it seems that the middle-east export energy to Asia, that then export goods to Europe.

[satimy]

Time to send them some freedom

[Sunseeker]

Yeah, not gonna happen. Or if it does, having fun being Russia's new colony. Maybe Russia will just Annex half of Turkey and then whatever's left of Syria.

As useful as Turkey is to geopolitical interests, good riddance to bad rubbish.

[artemishunter1]

How would wind or solar power increase US dependence on others?

because solar and wind is not efficient. With our current technology we can not extract as much energy we can gain from oil per dollar. There is also limitation because we can not put wind or solar tech EVERYWHERE, specific location is needed. So, our middle states will be energy starved. Not to mention, they are expansive. It might not be much for millienials, who are living on their parents house. But it is difficult to pay when you are independent with your own family or have limited budget like elderly. Battery issue is another problem. Now, say we increase the reliance on solar and wind, due to their inefficiency we now need extra dependence on oil to make up output we previously had. That oil going to come from middle east, since liberals disagree with fracking or opening new oil well.

[JohnBrown1917]

I think we should just stop playing fucking games everywhere and in every country as a whole.

Then maybe Erdogan needs to provide some bloody proof that Gulen was behind it. Or is the word of people interrogated by Turkey enough now?

Its a damn witch hunt at this point, those fuckheads are also going at in European countries. You realy think we would be happy with Erdogan causing problems here with his statements?

[Kuntantee]

"No energy" is to exaggerate.
Europe only imports about half its energy - mostly from Russia.
I haven't looked closely but it seems that the middle-east export energy to Asia, that then export goods to Europe.

By energy, I meant the kind of energy fund in ME, namely gas and fossil fuel. I do not want to further discuss the importance of this energy flow but controlling it means controlling the money associated with that energy or even a blackmail material for Europe to isolate USA. When things get even more serious, instead of depending on Russia, if ME is controlled by West, alternative resource can be used as a solution. This is why Cyprus/Israel joint search for neutral gas in Mediterranean was backed by West. There is also another story related with ex army officers targeted by Gulen's cult, but a bit off topic. So, opportunities are endless, this is well-known by all parties.

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Then maybe Erdogan needs to provide some bloody proof that Gulen was behind it. Or is the word of people interrogated by Turkey enough now?

Its a damn witch hunt at this point, those fuckheads are also going at in European countries. You realy think we would be happy with Erdogan causing problems here with his statements?

You keep repeating the same shit like a parrot.

[Deleted]

they may not be the nicest state of late but seems to me they have some negotiation leverage they can throw around if they want:
-large modern standing army
-large f16 fleet + manufacturing base
-bosphorus access
-airfields close to middle east
-no doubt nobody wants russian nukes there

i'm sure they get a lot out of nato too but i bet they can get some results with the occasional sabre rattling.

a team up of turkey/iran/saudi arabia could also seriously shift the balance of power in the middle east but i gues thats not too likely to happen.

[Skroe]

they may not be the nicest state of late but seems to me they have some negotiation leverage they can throw around if they want:
-large modern standing army
-large f16 fleet + manufacturing base
-bosphorus access
-airfields close to middle east
-no doubt nobody wants russian nukes there

i'm sure they get a lot out of nato too but i bet they can get some results with the occasional sabre rattling.

a team up of turkey/iran/saudi arabia could also seriously shift the balance of power in the middle east but i gues thats not too likely to happen.

Iran and Saudi Arabia being on the same side is about as likely as Osama bin Laden rising from the watery depths where the Navy tossed his stinking carcass and announcing to the world "hey just kidding with the whole Al Qaeda thing, I'm going to be a Raytheon contractor now and build Iron Dome for Israel. But first, a ham sandwich and and some whiskey."

[Deleted]

because solar and wind is not efficient. With our current technology we can not extract as much energy we can gain from oil per dollar. There is also limitation because we can not put wind or solar tech EVERYWHERE, specific location is needed. So, our middle states will be energy starved. Not to mention, they are expansive. It might not be much for millienials, who are living on their parents house. But it is difficult to pay when you are independent with your own family or have limited budget like elderly. Battery issue is another problem. Now, say we increase the reliance on solar and wind, due to their inefficiency we now need extra dependence on oil to make up output we previously had. That oil going to come from middle east, since liberals disagree with fracking or opening new oil well.

Good arguments, at least for current state of tech. Thank you.

[Forogil]

By energy, I meant the kind of energy fund in ME, namely gas and fossil fuel.

Energy is energy, with two exceptions: oil due to petroleum industry, and the ones that are "produced" locally: renewables (wind, sun, hydro) and lignite.

As for oil - Europe has some of that as well and mainly imports from Russia - not the middle east (it seems some oil from former Soviet republics is sent through Turkey as well, previously the idea was to not depend on Russia...)

Look at crude oil value in 2015 - https://ec.europa.eu/energy/en/data-...de-oil-imports
Russia 57T$
Norway 24T$
Nigeria 17T$
Saudi Arabia 16T$
Iraq 13T$
Kazakhstan 12T$
Azerbaijan 10T$
Algeria 9T$
Angola 8T$
UK 8T$
...
Added: Seems I was tired and it should be G$ (i.e. billions of dollar) not T$ above, but it doesn't matter for the relative importance.

Added: This goes together with my previous statement that the Middle-East export fossil fuels to Asia (Japan, China, S. Korea). Basically Asia have grown economically (the middle east less so) - and thus need more oil, so of course that oil is sent from the closest exporter - the Middle East.

[Deleted]

With reference to this post, @Kuntantee, protection from Double Jeopardy is baseline philosophically important to American law. It's so important it's in the constitution (the Fifth Amendment) and the US has long looked very harshly on any legal proceedings that allowed it.

an extradition request does not count as a trial -

A few years back for example, when Amanda Knox kept finding herself in trial after trial in Italy, just on that principle alone - how can you retry someone found innocent for the same crime - utterly disgusted the public that was involved and legal experts here who thought it grossly unfair.

One system has a far greater false conviction rate -

[Kuntantee]

Energy is energy, with two exceptions: oil due to petroleum industry, and the ones that are "produced" locally: renewables (wind, sun, hydro) and lignite.

As for oil - Europe has some of that as well and mainly imports from Russia - not the middle east (it seems some oil from former Soviet republics is sent through Turkey as well, previously the idea was to not depend on Russia...)

Look at crude oil value in 2015 - https://ec.europa.eu/energy/en/data-...de-oil-imports
Russia 57T$
Norway 24T$
Nigeria 17T$
Saudi Arabia 16T$
Iraq 13T$
Kazakhstan 12T$
Azerbaijan 10T$
Algeria 9T$
Angola 8T$
UK 8T$
...

Added: This goes together with my previous statement that the Middle-East export fossil fuels to Asia (Japan, China, S. Korea). Basically Asia have grown economically (the middle east less so) - and thus need more oil, so of course that oil is sent from the closest exporter - the Middle East.

Those figures could be a bit misleading since Syria is not fully in the business due to civil war, and some oil reserves were taken by ISIS in Iraq as well. The latter might be minor, but Syria is a relatively big producer. I am not sure if EU was buying their oil, but it is highly likely. Moving on, these figures confirm my theory. If you lose the grip over ME energy, it will be controlled by Russia, effectively making EU mostly depend on Russia in two types of energy type that is rare in Europe.

Also gas and oil extraction is done by Western companies in ME. That adds to your economy.

[Skroe]

Those figures could be a bit misleading since Syria is not fully in the business due to civil war, and some oil reserves were taken by ISIS in Iraq as well. The latter might be minor, but Syria is a relatively big producer. I am not sure if EU was buying their oil, but it is highly likely. Moving on, these figures confirm my theory. If you lose the grip over ME energy, it will be controlled by Russia, effectively making EU mostly depend on Russia in two types of energy type that is rare in Europe.

Also gas and oil extraction is done by Western companies in ME. That adds to your economy.

Will respond to otherstuff later, but the vast majority of oil and gas extraction / refining sale out of the Middle East is done by state oil companies.

Exxon Mobile is the largest publically traded oil company in the world, but it's completely dwarfed by many state oil companies.



Oil and gas production is essentially a rounding error in the US economy.



This shouldn't be surprising. Consider what US GDP is: about $17 trillion. Consider what EU GDP is: about $17.5 trillion. Now consider what Saudi Arabia's GDP is - $748 billion. And Russia - $1.4 trillion.

Oil wealth is in no way shape or form a road to the kind of wealth the advanced, diversified economies the US and EU enjoy. It's not even remotely close.

[Deleted]

http://www.express.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fwo...IT-NATO-Russia

TURKEY has threatened to LEAVE Nato if it doesn't receive more support, in a move which could see the country cosy up with Russia in a new military alliance.

In an outburst following NATO's perceived lack of backing after the failed coup, foreign minister Mevlut Cavusoglu threatened Turkey would "think of exit" if NATO did not step up to defend the country.

He also warned if the West "loses" Turkey it would be because of its own mistakes, not Ankara's improving ties with Russia, China or the Middle East.

How seriouse do you think this threat is and what could be the consequences?

Defend the country against WHAT? THey've got one of the largest armiest is the world, what the fuck do they want help with?

[Theodarzna]

Time to send them some freedom

Well as long as they don't go on another Armenia slaughter as Turkey is wanton to do.

[Ashkiman]

They can leave if they are going to take that stance. Do they think the U.S will let them keep the nukes or arms deals?

Yeah U.S should have all the nukes and weapons, not those turks or any other country.

[Deleted]

Defend the country against WHAT? THey've got one of the largest armiest is the world, what the fuck do they want help with?

They want Gulan who lives in USA.

[Deleted]

They want Gulan who lives in USA.

That'd be it I guess. THey're really willing to go to RUssia over that? THey are desperate.

[PACOX]

Yeah U.S should have all the nukes and weapons, not those turks or any other country.

Why did you bother quoting me?

The nukes are US owned and operated nukes that are stationed in Turkey. If Turkey leaves NATO then that means the US is moving its nukes out of Turkey, Turkey would no longer be under the nuclear umbrella of NATO. That comes with its own pros and cons though. Turkey no longer has the rest of the West ensuring that its sovereign, in an unlikely nuclear war, Turkey would be less of a target without hosting nukes it doesn't even own.