How can someone pick Altruis over Kayn?

[PursueTheChase]

Are you sure? It doesn't sound too convincing when Altruis gave you what can easily be taken as a threat if you choose Kayn over him ("<Player name>, beware that you do not share Illidan's fate"). In comparison, Kayn just left with only a "You can trust the traitor? I can do no more here". Both left and seemed to be bitter about your decision, but at least Kayn left peacefully.

Plus, whether Kayn is fanatical and crazy devoted to Illidan is of no consequences since Illidan's goal is to defeat the Legion. If his loyalty is an issue, may as well distrust all the DHs, since lore-wise, most, if not all, of the Illidari are loyal to Illidan anyway.

the big problem is that we're not picking Illidan's second in command, we're picking ours. when we inevitably free Illidan what would happen if our DH was to disagree even once with him on something? who would Kayn follow?

[Sluvs]

Please explain me how is this possible? Whatever differences Altruis had with Illidan, you don't just ask to a random dude that you meet for the first time to go and kill your former allies and brothers. Just because you think that they were corrupted. Exactly, he THOUGHT that they were corrupted so yeah, hey guys, go and kill them because they are becoming more demons than hunters, just because I say so.

But he was sooo wrong. We learn in Legion the fate of Varedis's soul, Illidan's best student that Altruis asks you to kill because ''he was gaining so much power he must be destroyed!!.
His demonic soul went to the Twisting Nether where he was found by Kil'jaeden. Kil'jaeden heaped endless torment upon Varedis, who resisted for a time, but it was not pain that broke his spirit. The Deceiver played upon his shock from the battle at the Black Temple. Champions had been prepared to face Varedis and known to use the Book of Fel Names, so who had told them of that power? Varedis knew it would not have been the Burning Legion or the Shadow Council, as they would have preferred the book to remain intact. Kil'jaeden convinced Varedis that it could only have been the Illidari, who knew of his power and betrayed him. Varedis surrendered to the demon within him, forsaking his mortality. In the process, he and his glaives were infused with great power by Kil'jaeden's eredar allies.
Can you see it now? Varedi's tried to ressist to Kil'jaeden's torment. How can someone that is CORRUPTED according to Altruis, would resist such torment for so much, ONLY to surrender because he found out that it was one of his former BROTHERS that betrayed him...

And guess what, every single demon hunter teacher that Altruis asked you to kill (including Varedis) is back in Broken Shore as the Burning Legion's servants. Great plan Altruis, great plan indeed.
If someone has read the book like I have will agree that Illidan has literally done almost nothing wrong. I say almost, he is obviously not perfect. So how can someone pick Altruis? Kayn is the ONLY option. A true loyal soldier to Illidan. Someone that will not backstab you just because he doesn't agree with your methods, or because you are becoming more powerful to slay demons. (which is the purpose of demon hunters in the first place....)

The only reason I ever thought to pick Altruis was because of Akama. But fuck this, I just can't trust and follow this guy.

The akama thing was what made his case for me. I chose altruis with a heartache, but I will not make an enemy of akama, not again.

[Qualia]

The fact that the DH's Altruis has the BC player target show up as Legion puppets later isn't an argument against Altruis, it actually validates him considerably. The Legion wouldn't take an interest in Varedis, for instance, if Varedis wasn't a vicious and corrupt POS or open to becoming one. For Kayn, the fact that those were his teachers makes them above scrutiny, and the objective fact that they were falling and thereby becoming a danger to the misson just doesn't figure for him.

The Legion targeted a lot of people, though. Medivh, Khadgar, Malfurion - among others that I can't recall now - don't seem to be "a vicious and corrupt PoS" to me. Varedis only got mindbroken indirectly because of Altruis. We all know the DHs are constantly in a struggle with the demons in their minds, but they manage to get by fine with their willpowers - if not for a certain person who betrayed them. In fact, the fact that Varedis actually managed to resist KJ's torments at first should tell us that the DHs aren't as dangerous as we thought.

the big problem is that we're not picking Illidan's second in command, we're picking ours. when we inevitably free Illidan what would happen if our DH was to disagree even once with him on something? who would Kayn follow?

Yeah, our personal opinion is probably the reason why Blizzard gave us a choice (so people who disagree with Illidan's method won't feel forced into accepting them). Lore-wise, though, I wouldn't be surprised if the DH player character would never disagree with Illidan. Most / all of the Illidari are loyal to him, after all.

[Wyrt]

I don't understand how people like this have 9,000 posts here spewing such complete mindless garbage with no essence or volume to their words at all.

Sorry I insulted your yaoi pairing.

[ravenmoon]

The Legion targeted a lot of people, though. Medivh, Khadgar, Malfurion - among others that I can't recall now - don't seem to be "a vicious and corrupt PoS" to me. Varedis only got mindbroken indirectly because of Altruis. We all know the DHs are constantly in a struggle with the demons in their minds, but they manage to get by fine with their willpowers - if not for a certain person who betrayed them. In fact, the fact that Varedis actually managed to resist KJ's torments at first should tell us that the DHs aren't as dangerous as we thought.


Yeah, our personal opinion is probably the reason why Blizzard gave us a choice (so people who disagree with Illidan's method won't feel forced into accepting them). Lore-wise, though, I wouldn't be surprised if the DH player character would never disagree with Illidan. Most / all of the Illidari are loyal to him, after all.

you mean aren't as in danger of going all demon on us as we thought? Yes, without a doubt, don't let Maiev fill you with her prejudice, I don't think that woman likes anyone.

DHs are remarkably resilient, much more so than most others, and actually seem pretty good at holding the line with their inner struggle, using it to spur themselves on. Very few actually fall out, Illidan is very good at training, well, it might because those who fail die, so those who are still around are the success stories, until they are not, like Mannetherel

[derpkitteh]

you gotta go with kayn, man.

loyal ally all through your starting experience, ain't gonna just betray him for a guy i don't know.

[Stormdash]

It's a mistake to dismiss Altruis as a guy you don't know. The Demon Hunter PC in no way acts like this is the first they've heard of, or even personally known, Altruis. Not having been on the raid of Mardum =/= total stranger to the Illidari PC.

[grondik]

Loyal to Illidan, but not to you. Remember the Klaxxi paragons? It didnt end well.

[Deleted]

Sorry I insulted your yaoi pairing.

Your entire post was literally all about men performing oral sex on each other and I'm the one with a yaoi pairing.

[Deleted]

Just because Illidan and his Illidari seek to attack the Legion back where it hurts and save the universe, it doesn't mean that they are actually entitled to instigate a cosmic utilitarianism in which they are allowed to do whatever they want in Outland. Vashj was destroying the eco-system of the Zangarmarsh, the Fel-orcs were doing some pretty fucked up shit in hellpen and beyond, the broken were at best subjugated and at worst outright enslaved by Demonic taskmasters.

Just because you are doing massive personal sacrifices for some cause doesn't mean you are automatically allowed to fuck up the lives of countless others who aren't in your position or viewpoint.

Even if my character has corrupted their body for the sake of power doesn't mean they intend to lose their way and slavishly follow Illidans callous examples.

[Wyrt]

Your entire post was literally all about men performing oral sex on each other and I'm the one with a yaoi pairing.

If that's how you want to read my post then, yeah, you're the one with the yaoi pairing.

[arcaneshot]

you gotta go with kayn, man.

loyal ally all through your starting experience, ain't gonna just betray him for a guy i don't know.

Well he's most certainly not loyal to you.

[derpkitteh]

Well he's most certainly not loyal to you.

he's loyal to the cause, loyal to illidan, loyal to you by extension. the only reason he leaves is because you harbor a traitor that cost the souls of some of your most valuable members and effectively gave the legion more power.

[Koryn123]

The same reason someone would identify more with the Tushui more than the Huojin pandaren, and choose them for any other reason than to play their panda as Alliance.

Preferring morals over action, being unwilling to do what is necessary to accomplish one's goals. They'd rather sit and wait, so that when the actions of those who actually do something result in something unpleasant like the turtle experiencing some pain when they got the ship out of his side, they can be all high and mighty and feel like they're morally superior for not being involved in the thing that resulted in the negative experience of someone, all while benefitting from it, but refusing to acknowledge that it is a benefit, like the Tushui's leader being mad at her boyfriend for setting the turtle on the path to recovery, rather than leaving him to die slowly from infection by the Alliance airship in his side. Or the Silver Covenant HEs condemning the Blood Elves for doing what they thought necessary to keep their strength up so they could survive and save Quel'thalas from the Scourge, while the Silver Covenant didn't have even the smallest fraction of the difficulties the Blood Elves had, and didn't do anything to help.

That's what makes Altruis dumb, and it's laughable to think that Illidan lorewise would have picked a demon hunter (the player) as a very trusted lieutenant to lead the mission to Mardum if said demon hunter were so opposed to their master's methods that got results that they'd willingly choose Altruis over Kayn.


The Huojin, Blood Elves, and Illidari didn't have time to do things the "right way" as the Tushui, High Elves, and Altruis would define it.


And after what Altruis did, it's stupid for anyone to pick him as second-in-command for any reason other than preferring a Night Elf character, if they really like what makes a demon hunter a demon hunter: not letting morals get in the way of the greater good, and certainly not undermining your comrades by going off as a rogue agent messing everything up for them.


In a battleground, which team do you think is going to win?

1. The team that's very coordinated, has a clear goal in mind, knows their role, and follows instructions, regardless of their personal feelings

2. The team that's full of tons of people running around aimlessly with no idea what they're doing, not following the leader's instructions because they think that they know a better way

The answer is obvious.

[tehdef]

Kayn = Cain

Altruis = Altruistic.

It's simple. I'm not a backstabbing brother murderer.

[Kraide]

and certainly not undermining your comrades by going off as a rogue agent messing everything up for them.

Hi, I'm Illidan Stormrage! You may remember me as the Night Elf who went rogue and messing everything up for the Night Elves during the War of the Ancients! Thankfully, I got another chance during the third war invasion, during which time I... went off as a rogue agent messing everything else up for the alliance during that war, too! I'm the leader of the Illidari and this is, like, my central character development theme!

Two things: first of all, the original post doesn't prove that Altruis was *wrong* but that *neither* was wrong. Illidan and the top Illidari were indeed containing themselves well and were fighting the legion effectively for a time, Kayns faith in Illidan fighting the good fight is not poorly founded. However, Altruis is not wrong, either... because no matter if it took a ton of work by the legion to crack these Demon Hunters, they were able to do so. The power they took did drive them down the path against their allies, whether it was by their choice or by influence from the legion is an important distinction but not important in the end, when they are corrupted and with the legion regardless.

The most interesting choice between Kayn and Altruis isn't over how each of them want to strengthen the Illidari, however (and they both do, een if they disagree on the direction they should take), it's in how they mirror Illidan Stormrage himself.

Kayn mirrors Illidan more in methodology, but not mannerism. He will mimic Illidan and get things done the way daddy would do it. As time has proven it effective and powerful, he sees no need to fix an efficient and effective means to the Illidaris ends. It makes him a more stable choice, but perhaps less adaptable to potentially changing needs.

Altruis mirrors Illidan more in mannerism. He is the renegade who trusts himself to get things done more than he trusts the leadership of others, and if he sees a way that he perceives as more effective, he zeroes in on it and has a really hard time deciding another is right. On the plus side, it makes him more innovative, but it also makes him less stable.

[BannedForViews]

Cuz dont care?

[Koryn123]

Hi, I'm Illidan Stormrage! You may remember me as the Night Elf who went rogue and messing everything up for the Night Elves during the War of the Ancients! Thankfully, I got another chance during the third war invasion, during which time I... went off as a rogue agent messing everything else up for the alliance during that war, too! I'm the leader of the Illidari and this is, like, my central character development theme!

Two things: first of all, the original post doesn't prove that Altruis was *wrong* but that *neither* was wrong. Illidan and the top Illidari were indeed containing themselves well and were fighting the legion effectively for a time, Kayns faith in Illidan fighting the good fight is not poorly founded. However, Altruis is not wrong, either... because no matter if it took a ton of work by the legion to crack these Demon Hunters, they were able to do so. The power they took did drive them down the path against their allies, whether it was by their choice or by influence from the legion is an important distinction but not important in the end, when they are corrupted and with the legion regardless.

The most interesting choice between Kayn and Altruis isn't over how each of them want to strengthen the Illidari, however (and they both do, een if they disagree on the direction they should take), it's in how they mirror Illidan Stormrage himself.

Kayn mirrors Illidan more in methodology, but not mannerism. He will mimic Illidan and get things done the way daddy would do it. As time has proven it effective and powerful, he sees no need to fix an efficient and effective means to the Illidaris ends. It makes him a more stable choice, but perhaps less adaptable to potentially changing needs.

Altruis mirrors Illidan more in mannerism. He is the renegade who trusts himself to get things done more than he trusts the leadership of others, and if he sees a way that he perceives as more effective, he zeroes in on it and has a really hard time deciding another is right. On the plus side, it makes him more innovative, but it also makes him less stable.

Wasn't Illidan only pretending to be allied with Azshara and the Legion? He certainly did stuff for them, but it was only to gain their trust, I thought.

Interesting. I honestly hadn't thought of it that way. That makes things make more sense to at least see Altruis as a better character than I previously saw him as if nothing else.

That said, I still think that thinking you know the best way to do things only works when people agree with you and are willing to follow and carry out your vision, like Illidan with his followers. If all the demon hunters had their own way they thought things should be done, and were unwilling to follow anyone else, then the Legion would wipe them and everyone else out of existence.

[Melsiren]

That's what makes Altruis dumb, and it's laughable to think that Illidan lorewise would have picked a demon hunter (the player) as a very trusted lieutenant to lead the mission to Mardum if said demon hunter were so opposed to their master's methods that got results that they'd willingly choose Altruis over Kayn.

You do understand you can disagree with someone, and not be vocal about the fact you disagree with them?

And after what Altruis did, it's stupid for anyone to pick him as second-in-command for any reason other than preferring a Night Elf character, if they really like what makes a demon hunter a demon hunter: not letting morals get in the way of the greater good, and certainly not undermining your comrades by going off as a rogue agent messing everything up for them.

I also disagree, your Demon Hunter had to watch as Illidan with borderline legendary incompetence refused to communicate with the rest of the world and made himself their enemy. Your character had to watch as Illidan's army fell apart, yet again most likely due to the fact Illidan does -not- communicate. It's not unreasonable if your character has even the slightest shred of logical thought that he might just think for a moment. "Hey, I'm the new leader of the Illidari. If I want my this order to survive we will have to make some changes".

I also wouldn't say"Not letting morals get in the way of the greater good." Is what makes a Demon Hunter a Demon Hunter, that's an overly simplistic view on the matter. It's also about not giving in to the demon, to use this power that is almost universally viewed as evil to do some good. To sacrifice every thing, from your worldly possessions and status, loyality, and your life. I can understand not letting your morals compromise the greater good, I even agree it's one of the qualities, I disagree with that notion under the circumstance of which morals is being broken.


I picked Altruis because I don't think Kayn has the balls to do the right thing in the event Illidan himself falls to corruption. (Yes I know from an outside perspective he never will) I picked Altruis because even after he left the Illidari he still fought the good fight, and never made enemies out of potential allies because he has trust issues. I picked Altruis because if my character were to fail, if my character were to join the Legion, or if when the Legion was defeated take their place as a horrible group that destroys the lives of others I know he would do the right thing and continue his duties regardless of his loyalties to me.

I picked Altruis because my character has no reason to be blindly loyal to Illidan.




In the end, Kayn and Altruis just represent two extremes within the Demon Hunter class. I wish I could have both as my advisers but Kayn forced the issue early.

[Deleted]

I picked Altruis because my character has no reason to be blindly loyal to Illidan.

Yes but are you okay with the fact that Kayn is Blizzard's canon choce in lore? This screws hard every person that picks Altruis, as they are basicaly living in their own bubble and makes the whole Altruis choice kinda pointless if you ask me.