Prepared vs Demon Blades

[Schizoide]

I was hoping there was more leeway with regards to talent freedom, but it seems that Havoc is the most restrictive when it comes to it.

Indeed. And a lot of it could be fixed by numbers tuning and minor talent changes. First, nerf baseline Fel Rush damage until it's only worth using on 5 or more targets. Then, the talent changes.

First tier: Add Chaos Strike damage to Chaos Cleave, and change Blind Fury to increase the number of ticks in Eye Beam by X% rather than increasing the duration of the self-stun.

Third tier: Change Felblade to deal AE when it hits. Buff First Blood damage. That's all it would take.

Fifth tier: Give that damage back to Fel Rush in Momentum so it's worth using on single targets again. Add AE to Fel Eruption and drop Nemesis' cooldown and duration. Buff both Fel Eruption and Nemesis until they're competitive with Fel Rush used rotationally with a 4s total 20% damage increase.

Sixth tier: This one is already close; change Unleashed Power to cause Chaos Nova to deal significant damage, and have Demon Reborn additionally cause every X fury consumed reduce the cooldown of Metamorphosis by Y seconds.

Seventh tier: Buff Chaos Blades' damage so it's competitive with Fel Barrage. Similarly, increase Demonic duration so it's competitive.

[Haram]

If Prepared is even comparable to Demon Blades, I'll take Prepared any day of the week. Demon Blades is atrocious and ruins the class for me. I would've preferred they redesign it but nerfing the hell out of it is fine as well.

No. Nerfing the hell out of something until there is literally only one talent usable in the tree is precisely the problem with DH right now. Make them comparable, maybe have DB slightly weaker to compensate for an easier rotation, but making it absolutely useless makes Preparation the only talent of choice regardless of whether you like it or not. It would be the same situation that you are in now, but reversed.

[Irian]

No. Nerfing the hell out of something until there is literally only one talent usable in the tree is precisely the problem with DH right now. Make them comparable, maybe have DB slightly weaker to compensate for an easier rotation, but making it absolutely useless makes Preparation the only talent of choice regardless of whether you like it or not. It would be the same situation that you are in now, but reversed.

I'm not saying I want DB nerfed, honestly I hate when talents are nerfed when they were only marginally better than its competitors. But what I'm saying is that I don't think I've seen a single person say they actually prefer DHs with DB and until they can manage to fix DB to be a little less...well, shitty, I would rather not see it at the top.

I personally think there's a lot of huge flaws in DH talents as a whole and that we're going to see huge retweaking of them in the .1 patch of Legion, or even sooner, so I'm not too worried about them throwing down the nerfbat and DHs being restricted to one spec right now. There is going to be a huge microscope, a ton of theorycrafting and avid and very passionate discussion on them for a good while so these are likely temporary issues and I would prefer Blizzard not fall into the trap of believing that Demon Blades is a good talent because everyone takes it as it is the best talent option in that row.

[Vanyali]

I'm not saying I want DB nerfed, honestly I hate when talents are nerfed when they were only marginally better than its competitors. But what I'm saying is that I don't think I've seen a single person say they actually prefer DHs with DB and until they can manage to fix DB to be a little less...well, shitty, I would rather not see it at the top.

I personally think there's a lot of huge flaws in DH talents as a whole and that we're going to see huge retweaking of them in the .1 patch of Legion, or even sooner, so I'm not too worried about them throwing down the nerfbat and DHs being restricted to one spec right now. There is going to be a huge microscope, a ton of theorycrafting and avid and very passionate discussion on them for a good while so these are likely temporary issues and I would prefer Blizzard not fall into the trap of believing that Demon Blades is a good talent because everyone takes it as it is the best talent option in that row.

Dblades isn't at the top, and is actually very well balanced with Prep right now (with prep being superior in 90% of situations), which is one of the more amusing things about this thread.

That "it will be nerfed" people keep talking about already happened.

[Irian]

Dblades isn't at the top, and is actually very well balanced with Prep right now (with prep being superior in 90% of situations), which is one of the more amusing things about this thread.

That "it will be nerfed" people keep talking about already happened.

I'm aware DB got nerfed, I was saying I want DB to stay nerfed until it's redesigned. I just didn't include "I want DB to stay nerfed" because I thought that was already a given.

[Tech Priest Bojangles]

Welp, I will go with Demon Blades anyway. There's way more shit to worry about at 110, so it doesn't feel like your just sitting there waiting for a purple bar to fill like we are at 100. I'm not going for mythic progression or hell even heroic so it's gonna be fine.

[Brakandaren]

I'm not saying I want DB nerfed, honestly I hate when talents are nerfed when they were only marginally better than its competitors. But what I'm saying is that I don't think I've seen a single person say they actually prefer DHs with DB and until they can manage to fix DB to be a little less...well, shitty, I would rather not see it at the top.

I personally think there's a lot of huge flaws in DH talents as a whole and that we're going to see huge retweaking of them in the .1 patch of Legion, or even sooner, so I'm not too worried about them throwing down the nerfbat and DHs being restricted to one spec right now. There is going to be a huge microscope, a ton of theorycrafting and avid and very passionate discussion on them for a good while so these are likely temporary issues and I would prefer Blizzard not fall into the trap of believing that Demon Blades is a good talent because everyone takes it as it is the best talent option in that row.

Just wanted to chime in and say that I DO enjoy DB and want it to stay usable. I'm fine with it being a little beneath prepared as it is. but all the people yelling for it to be changed or nerfed even more(I know you aren't just quoted you so that you can see there are people that like it as it is) are driving me crazy. Just cause they don't like it doesn't mean it needs to be destroyed. I don't like ice cream, don't mean I want to stop everyone else from having some if they want to.

[High Marshal Sigismund]

Dblades isn't at the top, and is actually very well balanced with Prep right now (with prep being superior in 90% of situations), which is one of the more amusing things about this thread.

That "it will be nerfed" people keep talking about already happened.

[elfporn]

That's not saying anything without some context.

What fight?/type of fight
Default sim?
How long? 240? 320? 450?
How complete is artifact?
What relics?
What other talents?

[High Marshal Sigismund]

nice damage control

blizzard expressly said demon blades should be the worst of the three, it simming the best in any situation whatsoever is pants-on-head potato and should never happen, and completely goes against the blanket statement of "it should be the worst"

[Haram]

I think the real problem here is that Demonic Appetite is awful compared to the other two talents. Even prepared against a small enemy where you are pushed out of melee range for a GCD does better than DA. I think before DB gets adjusted, the first priority is to make Demonic Appetite more viable.

[Hexxidecimal]

nice damage control

blizzard expressly said demon blades should be the worst of the three, it simming the best in any situation whatsoever is pants-on-head potato and should never happen, and completely goes against the blanket statement of "it should be the worst"

Is this including the Momentum set up?

[0verdose]

I don't care if demon blades is marginally ahead of prepared, I'm going to play prepared anyways because I love the momentum playstyle. There's nothing really like it in the game and it gets a little taking used to be it is seriously pretty fun to play. Maybe because my main is an unholy dk and I've been so used to being slow and immobile that having all of these jumps and dashes is fun to me. Only way I take db is if it's the hands down get talent in that tier. I can see demon blades being not so bad at 110, but it is absolutely terrible to play at 100 imo.

[Vanyali]

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/VWDnTZU.jpg[IMG]

As I've mentioned before, Pawkets sim has one minor issue with it (which he himself states):


his stats are heavily skewed toward crit right now. Which values Dblades more. More balanced stats = less value for dblades.

Posting Sims without realizing what's going on behind them isn't just stupid, it's worthless.

[Mnesymne]

People are getting 2 things mixed up.

Prepared is the better talent at 110. But during prepatch its missing the other talents that make it better.
So during prepatch demon blades ends up being better dps.

[Keile]

People are getting 2 things mixed up.

Prepared is the better talent at 110. But during prepatch its missing the other talents that make it better.
So during prepatch demon blades ends up being better dps.

Basically this.

At 100 DBlades wins only because you do not have access yet to the other talents which synergize really well with Prepared.

[Shirofune]

No. Nerfing the hell out of something until there is literally only one talent usable in the tree is precisely the problem with DH right now. Make them comparable, maybe have DB slightly weaker to compensate for an easier rotation, but making it absolutely useless makes Preparation the only talent of choice regardless of whether you like it or not. It would be the same situation that you are in now, but reversed.

But it should be that way. Two talents, one which no requires no effort at all, actually makes the rotation easier, shouldn't make comparable or even close DPS to the hardest choice, being Prepared in this Tier.

We all also agree Demon Blades is probably the worst talent in the whole WoW timeline, nobody wants this. It should be reworked or nerfed into uselessness.

If someone wants to have an easier rotation they should pay a price, being DPS.

And so far, DBs is performing almost equally than Prepared. And that's just wrong.

I would remove the whole banking charges from DBs, that's what makes it strong. And really strong if you ask me. That's like using 2 Demon's Bite in the same GCD.

[Keile]

But it should be that way. Two talents, one which no requires no effort at all, actually makes the rotation easier, shouldn't make comparable or even close DPS to the hardest choice, being Prepared in this Tier.

We all also agree Demon Blades is probably the worst talent in the whole WoW timeline, nobody wants this. It should be reworked or nerfed into uselessness.

If someone wants to have an easier rotation they should pay a price, being DPS.

And so far, DBs is performing almost equally than Prepared. And that's just wrong.

I would remove the whole banking charges from DBs, that's what makes it strong. And really strong if you ask me. That's like using 2 Demon's Bite in the same GCD.

IMO DemonBlades should be reworked into an ACTIVE ability that replaces Demon's Bite but modifies it somehow (maybe deal more damage/generates more Fury).

As it stands it's....boring....

[Schizoide]

IMO DemonBlades should be reworked into an ACTIVE ability that replaces Demon's Bite but modifies it somehow (maybe deal more damage/generates more Fury).

Yes, like I said earlier in the thread, Enhance also has a no-cooldown free builder (Rockbiter) and a talent that changes it (Boulderfist). But rather than removing the Rockbiter button entirely, Boulderfist adds a cooldown and 2 charges. So while the end effect is similar, adding free GCDs to Enhance, they did it by adding gameplay to the spec. You need to decide when to use Boulderfist, and can bank a charge for emergency resource generation. IMO, Demon Blades should work very similarly. For example:

Demon Blades
Replaces Demon's Bite
Instant 6 sec recharge
2 Charges
Quickly attack for 420% Chaos damage. Critical strikes cause your next Chaos Strike to critically strike as well.

Generates 35-50 Fury.

[Brakandaren]

But it should be that way. Two talents, one which no requires no effort at all, actually makes the rotation easier, shouldn't make comparable or even close DPS to the hardest choice, being Prepared in this Tier.

We all also agree Demon Blades is probably the worst talent in the whole WoW timeline, nobody wants this. It should be reworked or nerfed into uselessness.

If someone wants to have an easier rotation they should pay a price, being DPS.

And so far, DBs is performing almost equally than Prepared. And that's just wrong.

I would remove the whole banking charges from DBs, that's what makes it strong. And really strong if you ask me. That's like using 2 Demon's Bite in the same GCD.

See the thing is, we don't all agree that DB is the worst talent ever created ever, so please don't make hyperbolic statements like that. Just from reading all these threads on DB vrs prepared there are just as many people that like DB as people that hate it.

Also, please explain how prepared is so much harder than DB? Even with DB, I am still using VR in my rotation, in addition I have to be much more careful to not over-cap on fury. The change with DB is that instead of just spamming demons bite till I have enough fury to CS spam I will work in rotations of GCD lock through FR/VR>Glaive>CS wait for the now banked DB charges to proc, FR/VR>CS spam rinse and repeat, it is a little slower rotation yes, but most definitely not the face roll idiot drool fest you people are claiming it is; it is about planning ahead instead of just spur of the moment button presses.

I don't understand how having to monitor your fury and charges to make sure you don't over-cap and dumping fury at right time is seen as hugely easier than spamming one button over and over until you have the fury you need to hit another button. And at the end of the day, that is what we are debating, prepared or not, most DH will use momentum and they will therefore be doing VR in their rotation anyways.