Black Desert

[Elim Garak]

If you constantly can't be bothered to read past the first few lines, I won't be bothered to try to have a discussion with you.

What makes you think I haven't read it?
I did. There was a slight problem though - it was all based on a false premise therefore there were nothing to address other than the false premise.

Now imagine it's not just one person but an entire guild that's solely created by and accepting people that can get the best gear fast(er) because they are willing to pump more money into the game.

Well if we are imagining - imagine that there's not just one guild of such players but several and suddenly it's not that much of a win, for them, heh? And since they cannot pump more money and get more powerful (because they are already at the max level of power) how is it p2w again?

Now imagine a guild of players who refuse to pay and decide to get to that level on their own, it took them colossal amount of time but they managed and now they can outskill the "p2w" guilds. So how is it exactly p2w again?

I'm pretty sure there are guilds like that. Because this game was around for some time now.

[pateuvasiliu]

People can buy gold with real money. People call it p2w in BD, but not in WoW? How come?

Because you can't buy the Warglaives of Azzinoth in WoW.

But you -can- buy the best in slot weapons in BDO. The entire progression is BASED ON GOLD.

There are no raids. You just farm gold so you can upgrade.

WoW's different.

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Due to the price caps, the pearl shop items benefit the buyer way more than the seller. $150 nets around 82mil. Being able to buy a costume for 20 mil is awesome. Being able to pets for 5 mil is amazing. All of this is made even better by the fact that you can not pre-order this items so everyone has a fair shot at them.

There were still a few players that quit yesterday. We lost 3 out of 100 people. I saw the top guild on UNO lost 10, but from what I heard it was mainly trimming the roster to make room for new apps.

I excited and hopeful for the news we will receive at Gamescom. I can't wait for Awakening weapons.

Lol yeah right, they disappear instantly. There's plenty bots.

[Elim Garak]

Because you can't buy the Warglaives of Azzinoth in WoW.

1. You could in TBC
2. You don't need to now - you can get them for free
3. You can if they show up on BM

But you -can- buy the best in slot weapons in BDO. The entire progression is BASED ON GOLD.

There are no raids. You just farm gold so you can upgrade.

WoW's different.

Wow is different because it's a different game, but gear in wow is the same as gear in BDO - it gives power and you can buy the best with gold. And you can acquire the best gear by the same means - world bosses. In wow there are also Raids. That's the only difference.

[Deleted]

1. You could in TBC
2. You don't need to now - you can get them for free
3. You can if they show up on BM


Wow is different because it's a different game, but gear in wow is the same as gear in BDO - it gives power and you can buy the best with gold. And you can acquire the best gear by the same means - world bosses. In wow there are also Raids. That's the only difference.

Allright so long story short because you cannot seem to fit this in your head.
If bis gear in BDO was not sold in the AH and people were using the money they made from selling costumes to buy world boss carries for a chance at getting said gear people would not have a problem with it. Because:
1.) it requires you to do something even if that means getting carried
2.) there is a CHANCE to get that gear. Its not certain.

Gear and currency is a lot different between the 2 games and so is their impact. They are both more impactful in BDO.

[Elim Garak]

Allright so long story short because you cannot seem to fit this in your head.
If bis gear in BDO was not sold in the AH and people were using the money they made from selling costumes to buy world boss carries for a chance at getting said gear people would not have a problem with it. Because:
1.) it requires you to do something even if that means getting carried
2.) there is a CHANCE to get that gear. Its not certain.

Gear and currency is a lot different between the 2 games and so is their impact. They are both more impactful in BDO.

Reiterating once again so now YOU can fit it into your head. Where does the AH gear comes from in BDO? Does it come from players who kill bosses? So the only difference is that the guy who buys the gear didn't participate in the kill? Much different, very wow. Do you realize it's harder that way because they have to compete with other guys on the AH? Supply and demand, dude.

Gear/currency are not more impactful in BDO just because you say they are.

[Aori]

The current model is far less P2W than it was previously. Value Pack and outfits are quite useful and were locked behind a real money paywall. Now they are not, it is possible for me to obtain most things from the game when it wasn't possible previous.

Anyone who was ok with BDO before the update and aren't now, are idiots. Likely pissed off because they spent real money on outfits and are angry that us plebs are getting them for low amounts of silver.

I'm happy with the model, I've gotten $150 of premium goods that I would never have gotten otherwise. I think this is what people are really upset about.

[Deleted]

What makes you think I haven't read it?
I did. There was a slight problem though - it was all based on a false premise therefore there were nothing to address other than the false premise.

So you deny that gear in BDO is far more impactful than gear in WoW? on what ground? Use some valid arguments for once instead of ignoring the point of the post.

Well if we are imagining - imagine that there's not just one guild of such players but several and suddenly it's not that much of a win, for them, heh? And since they cannot pump more money and get more powerful (because they are already at the max level of power) how is it p2w again?

Now imagine a guild of players who refuse to pay and decide to get to that level on their own, it took them colossal amount of time but they managed and now they can outskill the "p2w" guilds. So how is it exactly p2w again?

I'm pretty sure there are guilds like that. Because this game was around for some time now

Yes, there will be multiple guilds that do this. And yes it's still pay to win. They will be the top guilds and the 'free' players will struggle to keep up. It becomes apparent to the community that paying extra money is the most efficient way to be somewhat in the same league as the top guilds and they'll lose motivation to play.

A prime example is ArcheAge. And if you're going to argue that BDO isn't as bad as ArcheAge in terms of Pay to Win elements you'll only have to wait it out. They've already broken their promises and taken the first big steps. What's going to stop them from taking some more steps? And eventually going all the way? Obviously you can't trust them on their word. And this uncertainty of what the future of this game is business wise is another prime reason a lot of people will quit the game.

[Elim Garak]

So you deny that gear in BDO is far more impactful than gear in WoW? on what ground? Use some valid arguments for once instead of ignoring the point of the post.

I don't need arguments, because that's a negative, you claim it's more impactful - you prove it.

Yes, there will be multiple guilds that do this. And yes it's still pay to win. They will be the top guilds and the 'free' players will struggle to keep up. It becomes apparent to the community that paying extra money is the most efficient way to be somewhat in the same league as the top guilds and they'll lose motivation to play.

Lol, what is there to keep up with? How is it different from keeping up with the same guild who got all the gear by in-game means because they played LONGER than your guild? WHAH WHAH life's not fair. No one will lose motivation. Because the only motivation is GEAR. And once you get it - you will KEEP UP.

A prime example is ArcheAge. And if you're going to argue that BDO isn't as bad as ArcheAge in terms of Pay to Win elements you'll only have to wait it out. They've already broken their promises and taken the first big steps. What's going to stop them from taking some more steps? And eventually going all the way? Obviously you can't trust them on their word. And this uncertainty of what the future of this game is business wise is another prime reason a lot of people will quit the game.

Is that.. is that a slippery slope argument? Not to mention that Archeage is not p2w either. It's basicallly in the same ballpark as WoW and BDO and any OTHER F2P MMO on the western market.

[Darkeon]

The current model is far less P2W than it was previously. Value Pack and outfits are quite useful and were locked behind a real money paywall. Now they are not, it is possible for me to obtain most things from the game when it wasn't possible previous.

Anyone who was ok with BDO before the update and aren't now, are idiots. Likely pissed off because they spent real money on outfits and are angry that us plebs are getting them for low amounts of silver.

I'm happy with the model, I've gotten $150 of premium goods that I would never have gotten otherwise. I think this is what people are really upset about.

This is my stance too. Options are good; Before there was only the option whether to use RL money or not. Now it opened up the possibility of whether I want to use RL money or in-game earned currency.

[Deleted]

I don't need arguments, because that's a negative, you claim it's more impactful - you prove it.

I've given arguments for that claim. Where are yours to disprove them?

Lol, what is there to keep up with? How is it different from keeping up with the same guild who got all the gear by in-game means because they played LONGER than your guild? WHAH WHAH life's not fair. No one will lose motivation. Because the only motivation is GEAR. And once you get it - you will KEEP UP.

Before, the most powerful guilds where the ones that grinded for weeks on end to get the best gear. Now you can get there faster by throwing extra money into the game. This can be seen as a good thing because people with less time have a chance to be top-tier, but at the same time new players can feel like they are forced into paying extra for the game to be competitive since they see how long it would take them to grind their asses off in order to get there otherwise.

Though the flawed core system of the game of endless grinds is also hugely at fault for this. It's hard not to think that it was a marketing strategy all along where the gameplay itself is so incredibly dull and soul destroying that you want to throw more money into the game just to end it all.

Is that.. is that a slippery slope argument? Not to mention that Archeage is not p2w either. It's basicallly in the same ballpark as WoW and BDO and any OTHER F2P MMO on the western market.

It is, and a valid one. The company that brought BDO to the west hasn't exactly been the most truthful and trustworthy with their costumers. To sit back and think "surely it won't go any further than this" is covering your eyes because you don't want to believe it.

I won't go in on archeage supposedly not being pay to win because this is not the subforum for that. Though it definitely shows how extremely forgiving you are towards pay to win elements.

[Tekkommo]

Someone saying you could buy Warglaives of Azzinoth in WoW in TBC.

Just WoW...

Unless you mean buy them with DKP

[Deleted]

Someone saying you could buy Warglaives of Azzinoth in WoW in TBC.

Just WoW...

Unless you mean buy them with DKP

He means buying a carry. He is somehow equating buying a carry through a raid for a chance at gear with gear readily available on the AH

[Tekkommo]

He means buying a carry. He is somehow equating buying a carry through a raid for a chance at gear with gear readily available on the AH

I farmed BT every week in TBC, saw 3 drops in that time. If my guild decided to let someone buy a slot in order to get the glaives, he would have upset a lot of rogues and warriors and we would have left that guild.

Is there any evidence guilds sold a raid slot for a very small chance that a glaive would drop? You may as well just become a raider, as you'll be attending many raids.

The guy is just an idiot.

Thinks world bosses in WoW drop the best gear? Far from it. Best gear is from raids and that's it.

Yes, you can buy a boost in raids when it's not new content, but that does not mean the gear you want will drop. It also means you have to do some content to get the gear. Black Desert is straight out P2W.

[Baconeggcheese]

Ya'll realize elim garaks a troll and you'd be better off spending your time bashing your head against a wall right? Is there so little to do in BDO or whatever games you might be playing that you'd rather spend your time feeding a troll?

[pateuvasiliu]

1. You could in TBC
2. You don't need to now - you can get them for free
3. You can if they show up on BM


Wow is different because it's a different game, but gear in wow is the same as gear in BDO - it gives power and you can buy the best with gold. And you can acquire the best gear by the same means - world bosses. In wow there are also Raids. That's the only difference.

Warglaives are BoP so no you couldn't.

Player arrangements are their business.

You have to raid for gear. In BDO you just need money.

[Elim Garak]

I've given arguments for that claim. Where are yours to disprove them?

Statements are not arguments. I don't need to disprove statements.

Before, the most powerful guilds where the ones that grinded for weeks on end to get the best gear. Now you can get there faster by throwing extra money into the game. This can be seen as a good thing because people with less time have a chance to be top-tier, but at the same time new players can feel like they are forced into paying extra for the game to be competitive since they see how long it would take them to grind their asses off in order to get there otherwise.

That's exactly how it should be. Playing for free - long. Paying - fast. The thing is none of that is p2w.

Though the flawed core system of the game of endless grinds is also hugely at fault for this. It's hard not to think that it was a marketing strategy all along where the gameplay itself is so incredibly dull and soul destroying that you want to throw more money into the game just to end it all.

It's not flawed. it's perfect for a game without subscription. How do you think they are going to make any money and fucking RUN the game service if you all play for free? What you paid the box price? So what? It's not an offline game. Would you rather it had subscription? Would most of the other players?

It is, and a valid one.

Just no. There's not even a slope to get slippery here.

I won't go in on archeage supposedly not being pay to win because this is not the subforum for that. Though it definitely shows how extremely forgiving you are towards pay to win elements.

I hate pay 2 win elements. Your issue is you don't know what pay 2 win elements are. Namely it's when you buy BIS gear in cash shop or worse - when you buy EXCLUSIVE BIS gear in cash shop. That's pay 2 win in a nutshell. For you it seems pay 2 win is when there's an option for someone with money to skip the grind. That's not pay 2 win.

To give you an outrageously subtle example:

Name change in wow.

Before this service was implemented one had to re-roll a new character to change the name and grind it back to level 60 which could take several month and you lose all the stuff you had on your previous character (i.e. you don't have access to it on the new character). But then blizzard added this "p2w" element which allows players to pay real money for a QUICK name change retaining their current character and all the stuff it has.

Wanna talk about server transfers? That's p2w is it not?

Race changes?

Character recustomization?

Pets?

Mounts?

Pets that you can sell on AH for gold?

Tokens? How 'bout them apples?

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Warglaives are BoP so no you couldn't.

Of course you could, BoP is irrelevant with master looter and buyer in the raid.

Player arrangements are their business.

Buying gear on AH is player arrangement too.

You have to raid for gear. In BDO you just need money.

Nope. Money only gives you costumes. You need to sell the costume - and that only gives you currency - then you need to find the gear you need on AH to buy it and compete with other people who wants to buy it too. And there's limited supply of that gear because DUH someone has to kill world bosses for it with chances and shit.

[pateuvasiliu]

Of course you could, BoP is irrelevant with master looter and buyer in the raid.

You still have to kill the boss. Also raiding with 24/25 people is harder.

[Darkeon]

You still have to kill the boss. Also raiding with 24/25 people is harder.

Reckon BDO gear magically appears on the AH?

And, after trying to snipe crap for a long time, I'm not sure that raiding with a proper boosting team is harder than that headache.

[Elim Garak]

You still have to kill the boss. Also raiding with 24/25 people is harder.

That's not even a point of discussion.

[pateuvasiliu]

Reckon BDO gear magically appears on the AH?

And, after trying to snipe crap for a long time, I'm not sure that raiding with a proper boosting team is harder than that headache.

LOL all BDO bosses are basically tank and spank. Killing them is easy as fuck. The only difficulty is getting the good loot which only top DPS get ( which is retarded as Warrior is nowhere near the damage of other classes ).

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That's not even a point of discussion.

The discussion has no point, you're trying to compare WoW and BDO when BDO has far more p2w in it.