Jaina Proudmoore - Butchering

[Evilfish]

What the hell is Blizzard doing to her? They are going for rock bottom with this character who, at some point, was damned good.

But it looks like she becomes the second victim of MOP, next to Garrosh Hellscream who was killed for the sake of fan-service. Now her too? Don't get me wrong, I'm a Horde player and a fanboy, but what's happening with the Jaina Proudmoore story is just fucked beyond all recognition.

First they blow up her city. They do it so she seems like a total idiot. Some pubescent girl with a dollhouse instead of a true leader. How that happens is ridiculous. She blows up her diplomatic neutrality showing us she does not actually understand the meaning of neutrality. When you claim you are neutral you will not openly aid one faction against the other. But no, she allows her city to become an entry point for the Alliance military. Even if Thrall the Nice Guy was still Warchief that act alone would have demanded military measures against her city.

So, she loses her so called neutrality. At that point even her buddies in the Horde, who had plenty of reasons to trust her couldn't argue in her defense, especially her BFF, Baine. But then she totally fails to foresee the attack on her city, leaving aside the fact that allowing the Alliance to use it as an access point for their military would have provoked some form of consequence, she does not see it. She acts all shocked when the only tauren rogue comes to warn her. What the fuck was up with that? Seriously? She's that stupid? Especially since now the Horde leadership belongs to a guy who would attack the rocks in his garden if he felt they were looking at him the wrong way. Somehow she does not expect an attack.

But when she gets warned, she, once again, fails to foresee that Garrosh who is already KNOWN for bringing fucking tanks to a fistfight (see the Wofheart book), Jaina does not imagine he's gonna live up to his name. In fact nobody does. Why? Because she was distracted? I may be going too far here but nobody makes the connection between the missing artifact and the ability to turn it into a weapon of mass destruction, the mana-bomb, which is odd because the first ones who started developing that weapon were, in fact, the Kirin Tor. But no, somehow that very important detail eludes everybody.

The Kirin Tor suddenly jumps up to help Jaina. Again an example of WTF neutrality. For some reason she trusts the Sunreavers to come defend her city. Why? They are Horde aligned, hands down. For some reason she expects them to pick her over the Horde. She might as well be asking the orcs in Hellscream's army to jump over the wall on her side and help defend her city. Again, she totally fails to foresee betrayal. Not even foresee, but suspect it. So by this point she's totally stupid.

So what? They give her a gnome pet to get killed for the drama-effect, to somehow make the justification stronger. The gnome dies as I expected her to since the moment she pops in the story and Jiana is all sad and crying. But she does not do the one thing she and everyone else should be doing! Questioning her capacity to lead and her decisions. No, she directly blames the Horde for what should be at least partially her fault. And what happens next? For her incompetence, she gets rewarded, she loses one city and gains another. Dalaran. Appearently it's a good idea to name one of the worse people, who had a personal grudge against the Horde, who has proven she has no comprehension of neutrality as the leader of a neutral city.

What happens next is what you'd expect her to do. And don't misunderstand, this is one of the things I agree with. She cleans up the Sunreavers. That was actually a smart move for her. Of course she fucks up again cause the Belfs were just about to join the Alliance and she bolloxes that up. But as far as realistic reactions go, this was fine. What wasn't fine is the fact that she, once again, faces no consequences for that mess. Not from the Alliance and not from the leadership council of Dalaran whom by this point should be a little worried about the actions of Jaina Proudmoore. No, because Jaina lost her gnome pet, everyone is totally cool with her actions... again.

Not only that, but she goes crying to "daddy" cause she got burned. "You were right daddy"... No shit! Daddy should have been the perfect example why things don't work out between the factions. He hated the Horde just like Hellscream hated the Alliance. He acted on that hate and got himself killed in the process. Ironically, like Hellscream. But apparently that didn't teach Jaina Proudmoore anything and she continued to live in her adolescent fantasy world until there was a fucking bomb dropping on her little doll-house by a guy who was driven by more or less the same motives her daddy was.

So by this point we have an incompetent, hypocrite, biased character. For some reason they make her a reptile-lover too, just for the sake of a cringey love-story that has no real point aside some lame-ass dialogue. And some choice that ultimately was forgotten.

So comes the trial of Hellscream. What happens? She "forgives" the Horde. But not really. That part of the story is so ass-twisted you can't tell the writers are totally lost. So what was that? Lip service? An attempt to "calm" her? Still unclear. WOD is a love-then-hate relationship that totally twists the plot. Whatever... moving on.

Then along comes Khadgar who apparently is not bound by any authority cause he undermines hers at every turn because he's best buddies with my undead death knight. So again, Jaina looks incompetent. But there's a silver lining. It shows the council of the Kirin-Tor are not totally mindless nod-alongs. That at least one calls Jaina on her bias, crappy stance and overall incompetence to lead.

During the Broken Shore scenario she loses her crap again, shows her bias and her inability to consider things from any other perspective than hers, which lead to the total destruction of her city in the past. But no! I'm wrong! Because she was in the Horde's position at the Battle for Hyjal where she had to retreat because she was overwhelmed by enemy forces. So it was, in fact, a possible scenario she refuses to consider and bumps butts with the other incompetent that is Graymane.

Now this shit. She goes full retard in the latest quest. Apparently she had no clue she was losing hold of her city and Khadgar just kicks her off and she acts, again like a pubescent teen instead of a leader who even if she was allowed to get away with more shit that most, might have gotten some basic degree of experience. So she picks up her toys and leaves to what? Fight the Horde? With what? Not the support of the Alliance since Anduin refuses her impertinent demands and she... picks up her toys and leaves!

So now what? She's gonna go back to daddy's land and take over the armies? Really? They'd just have her, considering her involvement with their previous leader's failure and death? Considering her CLEAR inability to lead which leads to disaster. Or reveal that she's a dreadlord like people speculate, so she can once again, get away with all the shit decisions she's made and start over, with everyone being totally cool with her? A sort of character reboot, where she's once again, the poor-poor victim?

I know I wrote a shitload of text. As a fan of the story and as someone who USED to like the Jaina Proudmoore character, I really needed to get this all off my chest. This is my personal opinion regarding her character and my opinion is that Blizzard is butchering the little that is left of her character for what? Turn her into a loot bucket? I'm afraid that by this point this is the only plausible possibility. And I felt this should be posted here because this forum is open to all regions as opposed to the separate Blizz forums.

[Cheze]

the most interesting thing she's done as a character is finally work up the nerve to be pissed about the horde/garrosh

that's not some type of high bar, but it's not as though she had anything notable going on before

[Deleted]

yes and the xpac after argus we are gonna raid her! ^^

[Danthon]

I don't mean to be too snide, because you're completely right, Jainas writing has been awful.

But we're all just going to have to get used to the fact that Blizzards sucks at storytelling.

[Evilfish]

the most interesting thing she's done as a character is finally work up the nerve to be pissed about the horde/garrosh

that's not some type of high bar, but it's not as though she had anything notable going on before

She did. She was that character that tried to hold up an entire world going down the shit-pipe. I don't usually like these types of characters, but Jaina Proudmoore was an exception, partially because her innocence and her, perhaps deluded, ideals. So I gave her a lot of points for her honest effort and that was shit on by the direction took with her.

I don't expect characters to stay the same throughout the story, but this is just a massacre.

[Kahmal]

Both Garrosh and Jaina's writing is a mess. Garrosh's disdain for the Alliance makes no sense, he starts off as a pansy in TBC until Thrall riles his spirits up. Garrosh seems to hate the Alliance simply because they aren't on his team. Varian comes off as a douche in WoTLK also, but when you realize his father was murdered by the Horde, his city razed by the Horde, his adoptive father Lothar killed by an Orc, and later in adulthood enslaved by an orc, then his brother in arms killed by the Forsaken....his hatred makes a lot of sense. Yet even he's way more reasonable and understand's the Horde have shades of grey just like the Alliance.

Garrosh's disdain for the Alliance can only be summed up to the fact that he's an old school Draenor orc, with daddy issues. Orcs in Draenor don't believe in diplomacy, they don't negotiate with freakin Ogre's or other Orc clans, they bash each other on the head until one cries uncle. Which is fine....but the fact that Thrall is dumb enough to appoint him Warchief knowing this. I mean the guy has been in the Horde for a total of 2 years, meanwhile you have options like Saurfang, Vol'jin and Cairne, and you go with the impatient warmonger.

As for Jaina, they need to make it clear that the Mana Bomb's magical effects really screwed up her psyche or something. Thrall was her best friend ffs, she knows damn well the Horde aren't all monsters, them rising up to take down Garrosh should be full proof of it. The writers simply needed someone on the Alliance side to be an instigator, they simmered Varian's aggression down after all.

The thing is they have much better options that make freaking sense.

Magni and/or Muradin are Second War Vetaran's that still harbor old hatreds. "Move your jallopy or we'll blow it outta the sky!"

Tyrande is xenophobic and impatient by nature and isn't the "good priest" people think she is. The orcs killing Cenarius and how the Horde constantly plunder Ashenvale's lumber is enough to keep her as an aggressor.

Genn Greyman also a Second War Vetaran harbor's old hatred's and the savage nature of the worgen curse certainly don't help.

[Luckx]

It was not Horde who wiped Theramore but Garrosh. Difference between Horde and Garrosh is that Garrosh killed one of Horde leaders and Horde themselfes was fighting Garrosh just like Alliance, despite that they had to kill their own brothers for that.

Alliance had some leaders even worse and more racistic than Garrosh i.e. Grand Marshal Othmar Garithos

But Alliance wast attacking Garithos like Horde attacked Garrosh.

[Shaddam IV]

yes and the xpac after argus we are gonna raid her! ^^

I'm sure Kalegos does it regularly. *ge-ge-dy*

[Jotaux]

Both Garrosh and Jaina's writing is a mess.

I have to agree with this. Garrosh starts emo, then wants to kill alliance babies and send us to our deaths, then he wants to be honourable, then he says fuck that and wants only power, then he stops the old horde from getting demon powers.... It's just all over the place.

Jaina goes from wanting peace between the factions to favouring the alliance then goes crazy when her city is destroyed which is understandable, then goes neutral with the kirintor, then expels the bloodelves for helping the horde when she was helping the alliance, then seems to become sane again in war crimes, then becomes a bitch in WoD, then goes full crazy in legion.

[Andromedes]

It was not Horde who wiped Theramore but Garrosh. Difference between Horde and Garrosh is that Garrosh killed one of Horde leaders and Horde themselfes was fighting Garrosh just like Alliance, despite that they had to kill their own brothers for that.

Alliance had some leaders even worse and more racistic than Garrosh i.e. Grand Marshal Othmar Garithos

But Alliance wast attacking Garithos like Horde attacked Garrosh.

Wow Garrosh really outdid himself if he did all of that by his own.

[Jotaux]

Wow Garrosh really outdid himself if he did all of that by his own.

Well it was in single combat with Cairne Bloodhoof. I don't think he had much help aside from the poisoned weapon.

[Nalorakk]

Jaina was never a good character though?

She stood on the sidelines and played the victim while never raising a finger to help. It's like from Stratholme to Broken Shore she hasn't changed a lick in terms of usefulness.

Present to do the menial tasks like build an ice bridge, but gone when she should be there to do something, literally anything.

[Nekosom]

It was not Horde who wiped Theramore but Garrosh. Difference between Horde and Garrosh is that Garrosh killed one of Horde leaders and Horde themselfes was fighting Garrosh just like Alliance, despite that they had to kill their own brothers for that.

Alliance had some leaders even worse and more racistic than Garrosh i.e. Grand Marshal Othmar Garithos

But Alliance wast attacking Garithos like Horde attacked Garrosh.

Please don't start that. Garrosh WAS the Horde. Player characters did his bidding for an expansion and a half, and no one truly stood up to him until Garrosh tried to have Vol'jin killed. Everything else up to that point Horde players had a direct hand in, including the bombing of Theramore. Even Baine followed Garrosh's orders after his father was killed.

And Garithos was not a member of the current Alliance. He was a member of what was left of the Alliance of Lordaeron, AKA the Old Alliance. Most of that Alliance either became Forsaken or Scarlet Crusade. So not equivalent.

But, I'll say, I agree on Jaina. They portray her so inconsistently. Unlike others, however, I think she has every right to be as anti-Horde as she is, but the problem is that in spite of that justification, they portray her as some sort of villain. They can't give her any subtlety. Instead of saying, "Hey people, you're stupid for trusting a race that resorted to fel magic the second the chips were down. I mean, you want to trust the fight with the Burning Legion with those kind of people? What if they offer them a better deal? Oh, and by the way, their Warchief is a crazy genocidal bitch." Nope, instead she basically screams "MUH REVENGE!" and storms out. Because in Blizzard's world, any Alliance who hates the Horde, in spite of being given every reason in the world to, are portrayed either as villains or ignorant souls who need to be taught by the other saints in the Alliance to forgive and forget.

[Kahmal]

Please don't start that. Garrosh WAS the Horde. Player characters did his bidding for an expansion and a half, and no one truly stood up to him until Garrosh tried to have Vol'jin killed. Everything else up to that point Horde players had a direct hand in, including the bombing of Theramore. Even Baine followed Garrosh's orders after his father was killed.

And Garithos was not a member of the current Alliance. He was a member of what was left of the Alliance of Lordaeron, AKA the Old Alliance. Most of that Alliance either became Forsaken or Scarlet Crusade. So not equivalent.

But, I'll say, I agree on Jaina. They portray her so inconsistently. Unlike others, however, I think she has every right to be as anti-Horde as she is, but the problem is that in spite of that justification, they portray her as some sort of villain. They can't give her any subtlety. Instead of saying, "Hey people, you're stupid for trusting a race that resorted to fel magic the second the chips were down. I mean, you want to trust the fight with the Burning Legion with those kind of people? What if they offer them a better deal? Oh, and by the way, their Warchief is a crazy genocidal bitch." Nope, instead she basically screams "MUH REVENGE!" and storms out. Because in Blizzard's world, any Alliance who hates the Horde, in spite of being given every reason in the world to, are portrayed either as villains or ignorant souls who need to be taught by the other saints in the Alliance to forgive and forget.

When you think about it Garrosh trying to have Vol'jin assassinated seems out of character for him. If his patience with him was really at it's limits he would have just challenged him to a fight to the death. But this is when Garrosh really lost it.

I do think Garrosh's ending cinematic kind of sums up what his issues were.

"You made me Warchief!" A responsibility he clearly wasn't ready for. That along with his daddy issues probably drove him to the edge.

"You LEFT me to pick up your pieces!! Hearing his voice crack displays how conflicted he was. Thrall was also like a brother to him, the one that pulled him out of his depression, the one who guided his reckless hands. Not only did Thrall put him charge for the Cataclysm, but he left for good. Didn't even come to freakin visit or act as a damn consultant. And if you read the books the Horde was going through some serious crap at the time aside from just Deathwing.

"YOU FAILED MEEEEEEEE!!!!!" Garrosh knows that he failed the Horde, just as Thrall said, but Thrall failed him, by totally bailing. Garrosh wasn't ready, everyone and their mother knew it, but Thrall apparently.

"Thrall!!!! You made me what I am" While Garrosh needs to take responsibility for his actions, it seems like even he was disgusted at what he had become.

[primalmatter]

Jaina was never a good character...

Her personality and behavior changed constantly ever since she was introduced in warcraft 3.

This is actually the longest she held to one set since she was introduced.

[Andromedes]

Well it was in single combat with Cairne Bloodhoof. I don't think he had much help aside from the poisoned weapon.

Ehm what are you talking about? There is talk about him alone destroying theramore.

[DeltrusDisc]

Honestly, with the way they've been handling characters, I have a shit-list I want to see dead, the less honorable their death, the better:

Garrosh: dead.
Thrall: sadly alive.
Jaina: whining and alive.
Anduin: stupid alive.

Part of me really wants to add Malfurion, too, I was really hoping he would be cooler, as he was more of a badass in the books, IMHO.

Never liked Varian a whole lot, but I could have lived with him alive, he never annoyed me quite like Anduin. Plus he's done some honorable stuff, so he gets a pass. Lucked out! He dies honorably, for the Alliance.

Vol'jin was cool. For the Horde.

[Andromedes]

Jaina: whining and alive.
.

I will kill everyone you care about and you will have to chill, because its war and this thing happens. Yeah and on the top of that i will call you whiny kid, because you cant get over it, you crybaby. You are just overreacting, you are either insane or dreadlord.. This behaviour isnt normal you princess, grow up.

[DeltrusDisc]

I will kill everyone you care about and you will have to chill, because its war and this thing happens. Yeah and on the top of that i will call you whiny kid, because you cant get over it, you crybaby. You are just overreacting, you are either insane or dreadlord.. This behaviour isnt normal you princess, grow up.

I'm Alliance.

Also, if anyone is overreacting, your incredibly aggressive post is exactly that. XD baahahhahahaa

Jaina is blind and annoying, she whines and points fingers at ENTIRE factions of people, not just the individuals who were responsible. Yes, it sucks what happened to Theramore. I was sad when it happened - I am still sad, however she is unnecessarily bent on revenge, it's ridiculous. GARROSH IS DEAD. HIS HORDE IS DEAD. HIS SECOND HORDE (the Iron one) IS DEAD. What more can she possibly deserve?!

There was a time I liked her - no more. She can die for all I care. Cry some more that an Alliance member wants her dead.

[Deleted]

There is no reason why she should become a raid boss. She has done nothing. Only been a victim so far and got tired of sucking up to the horde.

Nothing wrong with that.