15 Mythic "also could've potentially worked"

[Deleted]

15man mythic wouldn't work, because we have 12 classes now, and it's pretty good for mythic to have at least one of each class. It would be hard to manage.

Like progression guilds is t stacking the fotm right? They always make sure to have one of each class for fairness sake right?

[Hctaz]

The issue is they should have never legitimized 10-man raiding back in Cata in the first place. They created a deep fracture in the raid community, had tons of balance issues, and had to overly homogenize classes to cater to the smaller size. Frankly, this was a mistake and sometimes ripping the bandage off the festering wound is the first step to healing it.

Boooooooooiiii. 10 man raiding was much much better in terms of friendships. It made perfect sense that they wanted to capture that smaller scale fun that people had with Karazhan and the guild who chose to raid the inferior 10 man content back in Wrath. Balance issues were created and that's why they chose the hardest difficulty to be set at 20 players but they provided even better tools for those guilds who were more about having fun and not excluding each other. Having a flexible normal mode (heroic whatever I'm a Wrath-MoP raider) is a godsend to people who want to get together with a group of friends instead of having to find random strangers to fill a roster.

Inb4 "Whiny ten man player" I raided 25 man from tier 11-16. 25 man feels more epic, 10 man felt like you could reasonably assemble a group of players you're comfortable with. Take your head out of la-la land and try to understand that they both catered to a different set of players while providing everybody with a means to see the hardest content.

With this in mind: 20 players is still on the higher end of people I find that can all be comfortable together. Usually my groups would consist of 10-16 players or so who I had known throughout a long period of time and who were capable of clearing all heroic content together in a timely fashion. Most guilds I know who are solely in it for the friendship aspect have a similar number. I certainly was never in a single 25 man guild where there weren't the "outcast" players; players who were talked about behind their backs and generally disliked but were brought along because they were good at their class.

[Perkunas]

10 man raiding was first brought up in vanilla with stray, scholo and ubrs. Later in tbc with kara and again in wrath with everything including hm's and heroic modes.

It's almost always been a thing. Just because you don't prefer it doesn't mean it's not legitimate for others to do just that.

Your views aren't universally correct you know

See, those were just dungeons back then. Not raids as they did not have a lockout. The raid formats were 20 and 40. the 20-man content was not "progression" content. These 20-mans were used as catch-up raids much the same purpose Sunwell Plateau and the 3 ICC 5-mans served.


Karazhan was actually part of progression, but it lead into 25-man raiding and caused an issue obviously due to having to run 3 different groups for the average progression guild. ZA once again reverted back to the catch-up style raid that the 20's served during Pre-BC.


By making 10-man into progression on par with 25 they had to balance both difficulties which failed miserably with some fights being much harder on one difficulty and being faceroll on the other. On top of that forced homogenization gutted unique class aspects, utility roles, and mechanics. 10-man raids could not be forced to take a certain class with them because of the size of the raid. Classes like Holy Paladins lost the niche as a primary tank healer during Cata and were given raid heals to compensate.

[Hctaz]

For tens of thousands of casual or semi-casual heroic guilds that just did their best while clearing content in a tight-knit f&f group, 10-man was the best and only way to play it. They had neither the roster nor the management capabilities to suddenly maintain a 2x bigger group. 20man mythic just plain killed those guilds.

This times a thousand. I was the GM of two different guilds. Second one was super mega trash... lol but the first one was good enough to clear the entirety of heroic 10 man ICC within three weeks of its creation. Granted we were already geared in full 264 gear due to raiding with a 25 man guild prior and also there was the 30% buff but essentially I had taken a group of players who were frustrated with the guild we were in since they were pansies who would wipe one time on heroic Blood Council and then call for the switch to normal mode... besides the point. Essentially I had a group of 9 other friends I had made from this guild who did 25 mans. We were collectively fed up with the bickering, infighting, lack of leadership, and general unwillingness to get further than 5/12 heroic so we dropped that guild and formed our own. We one shot every. Single. Boss. up until Lich King heroic. We had planned on spending a couple weeks on heroic Putricide since we had heard he was the second hardest.. Nope one shot, one kill. So a random group of 10 players decided to drop 5/12 heroic and suddenly were one shotting the hardest bosses we had never even attempted before. It was a good time. There was no more bickering, nobody was an outcast, we were friends all around, and we didn't have to deal with 15 other players who were holding us back.

We didn't even care that we weren't clearing the hardest content (in fact, nobody on my server even managed to kill 25 man heroic LK before they were level 85 anyway lol) we just were glad we finished all the bosses together as friends. Cata we were even more delighted knowing that we would actually be killing what was considered to at least be on par with the 25 man versions. It was great though we eventually went our separate ways due to real life stuff and I made the switch back to 25 mans... None of my raiding experiences have even been that awesome. 15 man Mythic would have brought a similar feel to it as 10 man raids of old... though I can understand that it's probably much easier to balance classes around having 20 people than it is to try 15. They would have to make to make less specific mechanics with a smaller roster as it would be less likely that a smaller raid would have every single class in it.

- - - Updated - - -

Classes like Holy Paladins lost the niche as a primary tank healer during Cata and were given raid heals to compensate.

...and this is a problem because? Lol if you thought Holy Paladin tank healing was fun or engaging then you didn't play it back in Wrath. It was literally "Beacon one tank, heal the other with the spell of your spec-ing"
I leveled up a paladin just for a 25 man guild who needed a tank healer and I could literally do the fights with my eyes shut.

Also: That healer change would have happened anyway even if they removed 10 man raiding altogether in Cata. Their entire goal for healing with that expansion was to make it more fun which is why the tripled the amount of health everybody had and attempted to reduce incoming damage and healing so that it became a choice to heal and not a spam fest like it had been before.

[Deleted]

See, those were just dungeons back then. Not raids as they did not have a lockout. The raid formats were 20 and 40. the 20-man content was not "progression" content. These 20-mans were used as catch-up raids much the same purpose Sunwell Plateau and the 3 ICC 5-mans served.


Karazhan was actually part of progression, but it lead into 25-man raiding and caused an issue obviously due to having to run 3 different groups for the average progression guild. ZA once again reverted back to the catch-up style raid that the 20's served during Pre-BC.


By making 10-man into progression on par with 25 they had to balance both difficulties which failed miserably with some fights being much harder on one difficulty and being faceroll on the other. On top of that forced homogenization gutted unique class aspects, utility roles, and mechanics. 10-man raids could not be forced to take a certain class with them because of the size of the raid. Classes like Holy Paladins lost the niche as a primary tank healer during Cata and were given raid heals to compensate.

I am sorry but having a lockout does not make it a raid. Mythic dungeons have lockouts and so did heroic dungeons.
More then 5 people in a grouped instance is a raid. Which ubrs, strat and scholo where at the start.

I agree that the 10 and 25 man split wasn't good for progression races. But the problem doesn't lie with 10 man. It lies with people preferring different group mechanics, one being just as valid as the other.

With this in mind and you guys mostly winning out, there is no reason to be the "bad winner" type with the salt and such

[Toastyame]

Just like 20-man allows for 4, 5, or 6 healer flexibility 15 would allow for 2, 3, or 4 healer flexibility. I agree that 3 or 4 melee would be pushing it, but it would depend on the fight. I have always contended that ranged DPS is the easiest position in the raid which is why raids prefer to bring ranged over melee, but the flexibility is there for either size. I do agree that a 20 brings more variety though. 15 vs. 20 becomes a nit pick imo. A unified raid size is best for the health of the game. Change is hard. Holding out hope for a 15 is kind of moot at this point unless the population of the game plummets again.



Does the 25-man entitlement ever cease? Take your 24 friends and make 5 ace Mythic Dungeon teams and stop complaining already. Super hard content that gives quality rewards and caters to the cliques that develop in every large "social structure" or whatever special snowflake newspeak you guys want to prattle on about endlessly.

Seriously. Every 25 man I was ever in was never friendly throughout the entire 25-30 players. It's like going to school and pretending you're amazing friends with every. single. person. in your math class. Most people used to treat 25's as a means to an end.

You almost nevver 5 healed, let alone 6 healed in 20m though. At most you would 4 heal, potentially 5 heal some encounters (I've never seen/heard this), what are you going on about? Are you just saying the option is there? Or that there are legitimately encounters like that? Because, currently, we don't have anything like that unless we get another Thok or Raden style encounter with 0 mechanics and absurd healing thresholds.

I doubt they'd go to 15m if the game dies. What would that accomplish? Going from 1,500 20m guilds to 2,000 15m guilds doesn't solve anything and creating guilds won't get surprisingly easier going from 20 to 15. I could see earlier cross realm access be implemented or more realm merges before they do another change to roster size.

I personally don't mind 25m, or 20m groups. Yea, there's going to be half a dozen people who don't talk, the 3-5 memesters, the annoying officers, the couple where one doesn't belong and the players who just are elitist, but you get that just the same in 10m. From my experience, I've had to deal with more annoyances in 10m like Officers pulling favorites, mismanaging loot and stupid couples that try to strong arm the guild because they make up 20% of the roster. Hell, Despotism (guild I was in during SoO) essentially had to 9 man Garrosh progression because we 1 tanked and our Brewmaster couldn't WW for shit. It was absolutely awful. You feel less individual pressure/entitlement as you're not 1/10th of a team, or the only melee/hunter/whatever the fuck, you're part of a larger team that usually stretches well into the 25-30+ range. Some people don't like that, some people prefer their small groups where everybody is best friends with eachother, unique and that their opinion/voice matter more because they make up a larger portion of the team. I enjoy 5 mans for that very reason. I like a small group atmosphere but wouldn't jeopardize that for less compelling raid encounters and constant tier-to-tier threads of 10v25, which is harder?! I'd rather stick to doing Mythic+ semi-competitively on whichever one of my alts is the most qualified.

[ComputerNerd]

Watcher from the Gamescom Developer Q&A (46 min in).

So it seems like they could have made 15 Mythic work if they really wanted to, but decided to go with 20 instead. Do you think that Blizzard made the right choice appeasing to 25 man raiders and choosing to go with the 20 man Mythic size so they had a more comfortable transition at the expense of all the 10 man raid guilds? Or should they have stuck to their guns and chosen 15?

If they were appeasing they would have gone with 25m.
Neither size of raid team got something good out of that or were being appeased.
Both have had to make adjustments.
In the long-term its a good thing having it consistent.
Just having to adjust to a legacy from poor decisions such as the 2 sizes has caused difficulties.

[Perkunas]

...and this is a problem because? Lol if you thought Holy Paladin tank healing was fun or engaging then you didn't play it back in Wrath. It was literally "Beacon one tank, heal the other with the spell of your spec-ing"
I leveled up a paladin just for a 25 man guild who needed a tank healer and I could literally do the fights with my eyes shut.

Also: That healer change would have happened anyway even if they removed 10 man raiding altogether in Cata. Their entire goal for healing with that expansion was to make it more fun which is why the tripled the amount of health everybody had and attempted to reduce incoming damage and healing so that it became a choice to heal and not a spam fest like it had been before.

Niche roles and unique classes make encounters more compelling. If everybody can do everything what's the point in having different classes? Granted, it didn't get to that point. I will admit that. Now, I actually raided progression as a Holy Paladin from Vanilla through Wrath and I rather enjoyed the role. I liked being the guy who was relied upon and coming from EQ as a Cleric prior to WoW single-target healing(focus on the tank) was my forte. Further, the mechanics of beacon, judging the boss to maintain your buff, raid sniping, and hasting your Holy Light down to like 1.4 seconds made for more than compelling gameplay. It was the idiots spamming Flash of Light that got bored and bitched. Hell, we didn't even use MP5 gear, we just timed our Divine Plea to use at the most opportune time to avoid tank deaths.

[Kakera]

Pitiful that even years later after the dust has settled you still have morons like the OP clinging to the hope that 10 mans will be relevant again. Get with the times and put effort into the game as it is now. You'll be better for it and have far more fun.

[Perkunas]

I am sorry but having a lockout does not make it a raid. Mythic dungeons have lockouts and so did heroic dungeons.
More then 5 people in a grouped instance is a raid. Which ubrs, strat and scholo where at the start.

The lack of a lockout was really what made it not a raid. You could do it over and over again and get loot from it. Raid dungeons and bosses have lockouts and/or long respawns to prevent gearing up too fast. 10-mans and 15 were just multi-group dungeons.

[Deleted]

The lack of a lockout was really what made it not a raid. You could do it over and over again and get loot from it. Raid dungeons and bosses have lockouts and/or long respawns to prevent gearing up too fast. 10-mans and 15 were just multi-group dungeons.

Mythic plus dungeons does not ha e lockouts.

Also no matter how you turn this it's not a fact, it's just your own opinion. So please stop trying to make it a fact

[Hctaz]

Niche roles and unique classes make encounters more compelling. If everybody can do everything what's the point in having different classes? Granted, it didn't get to that point. I will admit that. Now, I actually raided progression as a Holy Paladin from Vanilla through Wrath and I rather enjoyed the role. I liked being the guy who was relied upon and coming from EQ as a Cleric prior to WoW single-target healing(focus on the tank) was my forte. Further, the mechanics of beacon, judging the boss to maintain your buff, raid sniping, and hasting your Holy Light down to like 1.4 seconds made for more than compelling gameplay. It was the idiots spamming Flash of Light that got bored and bitched. Hell, we didn't even use MP5 gear, we just timed our Divine Plea to use at the most opportune time to avoid tank deaths.

Dude I literally just spammed holy light and judgment on CD with Divine Plea there if I dropped low on mana. It was a joke. I had stuff that made noise at me if I was low on mana or when my judgment was off CD so that was mindless. I also felt that even in Cata, Holy paladins were good at tank healing and we had a holy pally for this exact purpose. They had better single target heals than most classes and that made them formidable. We ran with priest, shaman, and pally for our three healers at the start of Cata. The thing was that they gave pallys better raid healing spells and a more diverse toolkit in general to prevent the one button spam from happening again. It also gave them something to do during periods of AoE attacks when the boss was no longer focusing on the tank like during something like Bone Storm when the boss just did AoE damage and nothing else. Made them more useful over all.

[Perkunas]

Dude I literally just spammed holy light and judgment on CD with Divine Plea there if I dropped low on mana. It was a joke. I had stuff that made noise at me if I was low on mana or when my judgment was off CD so that was mindless. I also felt that even in Cata, Holy paladins were good at tank healing and we had a holy pally for this exact purpose. They had better single target heals than most classes and that made them formidable. We ran with priest, shaman, and pally for our three healers at the start of Cata. The thing was that they gave pallys better raid healing spells and a more diverse toolkit in general to prevent the one button spam from happening again. It also gave them something to do during periods of AoE attacks when the boss was no longer focusing on the tank like during something like Bone Storm when the boss just did AoE damage and nothing else. Made them more useful over all.

And Druids spam rejuv on the raid to this day. Granted, I like a diverse toolkit and the interplay that we had with Holy Shock was better this last expansion. I'm just sad that the judgement talent was never really on par for raiding in that tier of talents. I think it would have created my ideal version of Holy. Having to judge, shock, Holy Light, Flash, prism, etc. Also, I typically sniped the raid the entire time the off-tank was kept alive via rolling hots and my random healing during Wrath. I simply hated Holy Radiance though and the way it was used in DS.

*Anyway, the point is that it was a niche class. We had those things back then and if you didn't want to tank heal you had other options. Just as Utility DPS was a thing in Burning Crusade. You had the option to play that role. That role doesn't even exist now and I think that's a terrible thing.

[Rogalicus]

I have always contended that ranged DPS is the easiest position in the raid which is why raids prefer to bring ranged over melee

I always thought that dealing with mechanics and killing adds while losing DPS because of movement is harder than standing next to boss and tunneling him.

[Leih]

I mean, Ion talked about possibility of 15-mans and why they chose 20-mans way way back at the start of WoD beta like nearly 3 years ago by now. This is not a new discussion.

[Usagi Senshi]

Pitiful that even years later after the dust has settled you still have morons like the OP clinging to the hope that 10 mans will be relevant again. Get with the times and put effort into the game as it is now. You'll be better for it and have far more fun.

I find it more funny that people think Mythic 20 will be a set in stone raid size for another expansion or two. Blizzard DOES NOT stay consistent for too long and especially for an extremely niche raid size.

[Perkunas]

I find it more funny that people think Mythic 20 will be a set in stone raid size for another expansion or two. Blizzard DOES NOT stay consistent for too long and especially for an extremely niche raid size.

At this point if they change it I'd be shocked. They've finally got a stable "Goldilocks" size and have saved the headaches of balancing the most complex content for two distinct sizes. They have provided scaling in lesser difficulties and now a viable progression path for even smaller groups. I think they've just about covered all bases here.

[Rizendragon]

I always thought that dealing with mechanics and killing adds while losing DPS because of movement is harder than standing next to boss and tunneling him.

I've played both and found ranged to be much easier. I prefer to play melee though. You only lose amassive amount of DPS while moving if you're doing it wrong or not planning ahead well enough. Melee can't exactly tunnel a boss in any mode above RF...

[Perkunas]

Mythic plus dungeons does not ha e lockouts.

Also no matter how you turn this it's not a fact, it's just your own opinion. So please stop trying to make it a fact

Notice the raids tab... Nevermind. You're one of those people.

You're right. I am sorry that I offended you I wont do it again, sir. Have a great day!

[Rogalicus]

I've played both and found ranged to be much easier. I prefer to play melee though. You only lose amassive amount of DPS while moving if you're doing it wrong or not planning ahead well enough. Melee can't exactly tunnel a boss in any mode above RF...

I don't really remember any melee specific mechanics in HFC, unless I forget something. Maybe chain interrupting on Socrethar and soaking puddle on Kilrogg, but nothing else comes to mind.

You only lose amassive amount of DPS while moving if you're doing it wrong or not planning ahead well enough.

No planning would save on Velhari P3 or H&F's Smart Stampers.