I'm worried rogue's low aoe will exclude them from keystone mythic runs

[GT4]

I think you're missing his point; his point is that after they're done with their keystones/friends, they might run it with other, non-optimal specs, for the extra loot. Which is beneficial for you, as a non-optimal spec, to have someone well-geared with you.

Being able to find a group with your undergeared alt isn't the topic here. The topic is whether certain specs will have a disadvantage when it comes to finding groups. The answer to that question is certainly going to be "yes". You will probably find groups that are willing to do your one keystone per week but that's it. If you want to actually do more than one set of mythic+ dungeons (however many you can get out of your keystone), people will avoid you if you're not playing one of the stronger specs out there.

If you're actually interested in doing mythic+ dungeons (and not just the weekly chest), you'll be at a severe disadvantage when it comes to finding groups if you don't play any of the specs that are perceived as strong.

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This is exactly what is going to happen. What spec do you recommend for rogues?

Definitely outlaw. It scales much better with the artifact ability and artifact than assa so with the initial ~13 points it's already even with assa for single target and only becomes better with more artifact points. In addition to that, it actually provides the cleave you want for the medium to large pulls you often do with tank/heal CDs. Assa simply takes too long to ramp up if you multi-DoT with rupture and doesn't have the AoE for larger pulls either.

Sub currently seems sub-par because it offers lower single target DPS than outlaw at all gear levels available in the first tier while having weaker AoE as well.

If I had to put DPS specs across all classes into mythic+ tiers (1 being the strongest such as fire mage, 5 being the weakest such as frost mage), I'd probably put sub/assa in tier 4 and outlaw in tier 2.

[nightmann]

Have you done any PUG content in the past? You'll see way more ridiculous requirements there (no <list of specs>, ilevel <30 above what actually drops in the dungeon/raid they're looking for>+, etc.) even though there's much less of an incentive. If a raid cannot kill a boss, you can just restart and/or replace some players. If a mythic+ dungeon is failed, that keystone is depleted and you won't get loot until you upgrade it (= you lose at least one chest of loot).

If you seriously believe that players will be more lenient for mythic+ than for any content in the past, you'll be in for a rude awakening.

Edit: I forgot mentioning that people have already started seeing this on beta. Some specs have a really hard time finding higher mythic+ groups there.

Which specs have you found to have a hard time, and which specs are perceived as strong?

[fadedmind]

Are Mythic+ timed like current challenge modes? If not does it really even matter what you bring unless you are pushing 1sts?

[nightmann]

Are Mythic+ timed like current challenge modes? If not does it really even matter what you bring unless you are pushing 1sts?

From what I gather it's like diablo, where you have a time to complete the instance, with different challenges as you increase keystone level. Which is why some specs/classes will be heavily persecuted against.

[GT4]

Which specs have you found to have a hard time, and which specs are perceived as strong?

People are pretty much looking for specs that offer a good combination of AoE and single target. Most sought after are probably fire mages and BM hunters as well as melee specs that can AoE/cleave really well (havoc DH, unholy DK, fury warrior and WW monk come to my mind). Specs with weak AoE are generally avoided (frost mage, feral, SP to name a few).

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Are Mythic+ timed like current challenge modes? If not does it really even matter what you bring unless you are pushing 1sts?

You have a timer like in challenge modes. If you complete the dungeon within that time, you get a loot chest (or multiple when really fast) and upgrade your keystone. The upgraded keystone can then be run again while being harder than the previous one (enemies have more HP and deal more damage) and offering better loot (higher ilevel item in the chest). You can repeat this until you fail the timer. Once that happens, your keystone is depleted and you receive no loot for that tier. If you run that keystone again, you can beat the timer and upgrade it but you won't get loot for that run.

[blackblade]

Contrary to popular belief you don't need your entire group to do insane AoE.

I think a lot of groups are designing themselves to have some really strong single target specs and with somebody else who carries AoE.

A lot of this has to do with bosses having more health with a scaling system and actually being alive longer compared to CMs in past expansion. Also some affixes at the higher levels want you to focus some mobs down as opposed to blindly AoE.

Depending on the dungeon and mutators for the week CC/interrupts can be a deciding factor as well, and rogues are pretty set in that department.

[Illustrathor]

So? Not every class and spec is equally good in everything.

I played a combat rogue since BC because I neither liked the style nor the mechanics of the other specs and therefore I will play Outlaw, even if the dps of the toothpick specs will be better at some point. Was it the best dps spec in the last expansions, no, did I care, hell no. And I had never problems to perform satisfying... just ask your mother xD No serious, jokes aside, I knew the combat spec and that was enough to outperform 8 of 10 other rogues who didn't know their spec that well. Yeah, toothpickers who were evenly familiar with their specs were way ahead, but at this point it didn't mattered anymore.

Sure, I had my hardcore 5/7 days raiding time where I wanted every single dps I could get and changed everything constantly, but that was no fun at all. Yeah, some specs will be superior in different areas over a different period of time. Only if you want to do absolute high end raiding with everything a world first, maximum outcome and all that stuff, than you have to switch, but if not... pft, who cares.
Will there be morons who only take "the best of the best of the best", sure, there will always be those guys who realize very quckliy that they'll play alone at some point. I always prefer a player who is knowing what he's doing rather than one who theorycrafts the shit out of the game and stands in the fire while spoiling the fun for everyone, it is better to play a spec you know inside and out than to battle with the spec itself rather than the boss.

I had never any problems to find groups or raids whatsoever and I doubt this'll change.

[Deleted]

Are ppl seriously consider outlaw as a weak aoe spec? With BF ar and a good roll I would go far from that. Have you looked into the sims sticky and 3target sims for legion?

Also, why do everything need to be lfg/pugged. Join a guild and 99% of the grp finding is solved, also you know you end up with ppl you enjoy play with.

Compare doing instances in a pug with do them in a guild grp is like compare a solo wank with a hot night in bed with a beuteful partner

[D3cadent]

Then play Outlaw. Not every spec is designed to do everything.

Except outlaw... lol

[Sarrus1]

So was the title of this written from the diary of an Assassination rogue post nerfs? Outlaw is simming close to if not above Assassination in single target and is blowing it out of the water in terms of AoE damage. If anything people should be maxing out their Outlaw artifact first before either sub or assas

[Wenoxar]

Assa actually has decent aoe on medium groups. Just spam fok and rupture/hemo everything.

Ramp up time is too high to consider it as a good aoe

[stomination]

i'm not a PvEr so pardon my ignorance but isn't M+ supposed to not just be an aoe fest?

I think it depends on the affixes.

[Aggrophobic]

2 specs right off the bat, sub and assassin, will probably not be invited to mythic key runs due to zero aoe effectiveness. I don't know about outlaw because I haven't really toyed around with it but I would guess that this fact alone will funnel everyone into outlaw and screw anyone that didn't have the foresight. Especially since mythic 10+ gives mythic raid gear equivalency.

We had an assassination rogue on our last mythic+ and hed did well. Being able to burst down that high prio add is really important at times and rogues seems like the perfect class for that.

Also, you have outlaw that does good AOE so you know, can't be the master of everything.
When it comes to raiding, rogue is still the best melee without a doubt.

[omeomorfismo]

Ramp up time is too high to consider it as a good aoe

master poisoner isnt better than hemo for aoe?

[shaunika123]

Actually that's not a solution but almost more of a problem. Because of how keystones work, you really want to make sure you push each one as high as you can so bringing a sub-par DPS will lower your own loot. That means people won't be taking sub-optimal classes for their own keystones. If you're a sub-optimal class/spec and don't have friends/a guild to run with, you'll most likely only be able to get a group to run your own keystone which means you get 1/5th of the loot (outside of the weekly chest) of a player who runs every keystone in their party and even less than one that runs other players' keystones.

Here's an example:
Let's assume you're playing sub rogue and sub rogue is a bad DPS.
When looking for parties, nobody will want to take you for their own keystones because it means they potentially lose loot by not being able to push as high.
The only parties you'll find will be a) ones that use your keystone or b) very casual ones that don't push high anyway.
That means when it comes to high ilevel loot, you're pretty much limited to the loot you get from your one keystone.

Let's assume another player is playing a fire mage and fire mage is still the best Mythic+ DPS.
When looking for parties, everybody will want to take you for their own keystones because it means they maximize their chances of getting as much loot as possible because they're more likely to push high.
In addition to that, you'll easily find a group that runs all keystones in that group (= 5).
Subsequently that player will easily get 5 or more keystones worth of high ilevel loot.

it's an MMORPG, when have you ever not gained better loot with friends than with pugs? that's exactly how it's supposed to be

This is exactly what is going to happen. What spec do you recommend for rogues?

outlaw at the beginning definitely, it's the best spec all around till atl east nighthold at around ~890 ilvl (after that sub might get ahead, since it is catching up with gear)

however i'd recommend spending most points into sub and just get greed+blade dance(and maybe fortune strikes but that's already kinda minimal) in the outlaw wep, it's gonna be good enough but sub's weapon scales better in the long run

Definitely outlaw. It scales much better with the artifact ability and artifact than assa so with the initial ~13 points it's already even with assa for single target and only becomes better with more artifact points. In addition to that, it actually provides the cleave you want for the medium to large pulls you often do with tank/heal CDs. Assa simply takes too long to ramp up if you multi-DoT with rupture and doesn't have the AoE for larger pulls either.

based on my experiences, you'll almost never do "large pulls" in mythic+ due to some of the affixes the mobs get(like bolstering), and even when you do pull a lot, mosto f the time you'll end up having to focus down one mob with single target burst and not AOE (like the dryad's in DHT for example) tht still doesnt mean outlaw wont be the best, it definitely will be, but not necessarily for the reasons you're mentioning.

[Izenhart]

Which means the hardcore people who want to gear up as fast as possible are actually stimulated to carry 'nubs' so they can get extra chances for gear

The hardcore people will get a group of 5 guildies

use first guy's +2 keystone and upgrade it to +5

Then use 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th guy +2 keystone and upgrade it to +5

Then to all over again with the +5 keys to bring them to +8

Then all over again to bring them to +10

Then bring in an alt each and redo the whole +2 > +5 > +8 > +10 process again

Obviously not doing this while carrying random 'nubs'


But for the more casual players, socializing and getting a maybe lesser geared guy in just because he has a fresh keystone is indeed the only way there is to get more Mythic+ gear

[Deleted]

But serious, you don't have to be hardcore to play the game in a guild, just social. The game open up a lot if you play in a guild and there is big non hardcore guilds who just run normal raids and instances. Join one and don't worry about what pug ppl say

[GT4]

it's an MMORPG, when have you ever not gained better loot with friends than with pugs? that's exactly how it's supposed to be

How can that be your reply to a post that's about the gap between being able to find a PuG with an optimal spec vs. being able to find a PuG with a sub-optimal spec? You're completely derailing the topic.

outlaw at the beginning definitely, it's the best spec all around till atl east nighthold at around ~890 ilvl (after that sub might get ahead, since it is catching up with gear)

however i'd recommend spending most points into sub and just get greed+blade dance(and maybe fortune strikes but that's already kinda minimal) in the outlaw wep, it's gonna be good enough but sub's weapon scales better in the long run

Sub's weapon scales better but at currently obtainable levels (<=895) it never exceeds Outlaw's single target DPS so that's pretty much irrelevant. By the time the maximum item level is raised, you'll have no issues getting a second spec up to par within a week anyway.

based on my experiences, you'll almost never do "large pulls" in mythic+ due to some of the affixes the mobs get(like bolstering), and even when you do pull a lot, mosto f the time you'll end up having to focus down one mob with single target burst and not AOE (like the dryad's in DHT for example) tht still doesnt mean outlaw wont be the best, it definitely will be, but not necessarily for the reasons you're mentioning.

Of course there are some affixes that will disincentivize big pulls but most of them can be played around by having a tank that knows how to rotate CDs and kite (good job picking the one that cannot necessarily be played around like that). When pushing for high mythic+ levels, you will certainly see 1-2 somewhat big pulls in most dungeons because eventually that becomes the only way to beat the timer. It's the same as in challenge modes previously or in D3 (another Blizzard game with rifts using a very similar system to mythic+ dungeons). At some point your DPS per target is simply capped by gear so the only way to push further is to pull more enemies to AoE at once.

Having said that, even in the scenario you're describing outlaw would be by far the strongest. Not only do they have the best overall single target DPS as of now (slightly ahead initially, significantly ahead with full artifact and legendaries) but they can cleave 35% of the damage basically for free while focusing down one enemy. Compared to that, Assa won't be able to focus down the single target as quickly, nor be able to do significant AoE at the same time (FoK is a joke). Sub might keep up in single target thanks to additional CPs but AoE is still significantly lower than BF's passive cleave.

[shaunika123]

Having said that, even in the scenario you're describing outlaw would be by far the strongest.

i literally said that in my post

and at higher mythics (10-15+) it's very common that there will be an affix that disincentivize masspulls since you'll have like 3 of them

[GT4]

But serious, you don't have to be hardcore to play the game in a guild, just social. The game open up a lot if you play in a guild and there is big non hardcore guilds who just run normal raids and instances. Join one and don't worry about what pug ppl say

Having a guild doesn't magically give you groups at all times. If there's nobody online who still has a keystone this week and is willing to do mythic+ at the time, you'll have to resort to PuGs anyway.

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i literally said that in my post

And you said "not necessarily for the reasons you're mentioning" when literally the first reason I mentioned was outlaw's superior single target DPS which you're talking about in your post.