15 Mythic "also could've potentially worked"

[Deleted]

There are plenty of ways they could have fixed that though. Party only heals are gone now, you could adjust groups to 4 if you really needed a nice even raid frame for your ocd. When you split raids you don't always go 50/50 but even if you did you could just go 8 and 8 and it would be the same. If you used HFC as an example when people run off to do things it is rarely a full party so you run into the same issue you are talking about.

That would probably need 4mans in every other aspect of the game that there were 5mans. That seems to be both a reorganization nightmare for very little reason, or, it may be even very wrong to do it for other types of content (5man is already too small for dungeons). Also they can't have 4mans in raiding and 5mans or 6mans elsewhere because at the end of the day it's still a game and they want to keep a form of simplicity and consistency.

[judgementofantonidas]

That's faulty reasoning.

That is coming from someone who still against all proof to the contrary insists that 25 was ever harder than 10.

[Perkunas]

That is coming from someone who still against all proof to the contrary insists that 25 was ever harder than 10.

Some fights were harder on 10 and some were harder on 25. Logistics were more difficult to deal with in 25. Claiming one difficulty was harder all around is ignorant. So glad this shitty and worthless debate is dead though.

[Hotmail]

That is coming from someone who still against all proof to the contrary insists that 25 was ever harder than 10.

I don't remember debating this on here but that opinion always came with the caveat that it is much easier to get 10 skilled players together than it is to get 25. Not making any mistakes is a great way to offset the fact that, in 10-man, mistakes were more heavily punished.

At any rate it worked for us in WOTLK. Our 10m core was miles ahead of the vast majority of 25m guilds on KT, who had to waste time handholding multiple players on the other end of the bell curve.

[judgementofantonidas]

I don't remember debating this on here but that opinion always came with the caveat that it is much easier to get 10 skilled players together than it is to get 25. Not making any mistakes is a great way to offset the fact that, in 10-man, mistakes were more heavily punished.

At any rate it worked for us in WOTLK. Our 10m core was miles ahead of the vast majority of 25m guilds on KT, who had to waste time handholding multiple players on the other end of the bell curve.

Yes. The only leg players who stated larger raids were more difficult had to stand on was people management.

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Some fights were harder on 10 and some were harder on 25. Logistics were more difficult to deal with in 25. Claiming one difficulty was harder all around is ignorant. So glad this shitty and worthless debate is dead though.

I assumed that it had finally died until being brought up once again in this thread due to the "bigger is harder" pundits finally getting it through their fat heads.

[TyrianFC]

They 100% made the right choice to do 20 man instead of some other stupid number like 15 or 12 or 16.

[Drilnos]

Well it's a completely moot point now, but my WoD guilds tended to wind up maxing out at 17 or 18 players, so yes, it would have made the difference. But now, four dead guilds later, I just don't care anymore.

[Eats Compost]

In terms of making bleeding-edge, difficult encounters, 20 is definitely the right number.

[Raiju]

I don't remember debating this on here but that opinion always came with the caveat that it is much easier to get 10 skilled players together than it is to get 25. Not making any mistakes is a great way to offset the fact that, in 10-man, mistakes were more heavily punished.

At any rate it worked for us in WOTLK. Our 10m core was miles ahead of the vast majority of 25m guilds on KT, who had to waste time handholding multiple players on the other end of the bell curve.

wrath was intentionally tuned lower on 10man.

[cFortyfive]

At any rate it worked for us in WOTLK. Our 10m core was miles ahead of the vast majority of 25m guilds on KT, who had to waste time handholding multiple players on the other end of the bell curve.

10s during wotlk while not actually as easy as people like to claim at least if you progressed in the gear it was tuned for was still more lenient than the bigger format.

Yes. The only leg players who stated larger raids were more difficult had to stand on was people management.

I am always amused by people with those achievement dates presenting their opinions as something worthwhile.

[Fyersing]

The issue is they should have never legitimized 10-man raiding back in Cata in the first place. They created a deep fracture in the raid community, had tons of balance issues, and had to overly homogenize classes to cater to the smaller size. Frankly, this was a mistake and sometimes ripping the bandage off the festering wound is the first step to healing it.

Then, the solution was to de-homogenize classes, which lasted about four weeks into the entry raid of WoD before being scrapped entirely because it's largely impossible to balance it (i.e. think back to Vanilla raid compositions).

The classes are more homogenized now, going into Legion, than they ever were for Cataclysm or MoP; so sort of throws a wrench in the argument that homogenization was caused by 10-man parity.

In terms of making bleeding-edge, difficult encounters, 20 is definitely the right number.

The recent blue post stating that Mythic+ will possibly/likely be more difficult than Mythic raids, at some point, sort of suggests this isn't a hurdle... at all.

[Deleted]

Then, the solution was to de-homogenize classes, which lasted about four weeks into the entry raid of WoD before being scrapped entirely because it's largely impossible to balance it (i.e. think back to Vanilla raid compositions).

The classes are more homogenized now, going into Legion, than they ever were for Cataclysm or MoP; so sort of throws a wrench in the argument that homogenization was caused by 10-man parity.



The recent blue post stating that Mythic+ will possibly/likely be more difficult than Mythic raids, at some point, sort of suggests this isn't a hurdle... at all.

M+ will be become harder then Mythic raid eventualy due the numbers of such high lvl + multiple afixes

[Eats Compost]

The recent blue post stating that Mythic+ will possibly/likely be more difficult than Mythic raids, at some point, sort of suggests this isn't a hurdle... at all.

Mythic+ is a very different beast to a single, defined raid difficulty, and it should be obvious why that isn't a fair comparison. It also has a completely different dynamic - like they've said in other posts, the focus switches from bosses to trash when you're comparing raids to dungeons. When you're thinking about the kinds of challenges posed by each environment, they're not at all the same.

[Polarthief]

Does the 10-man whining ever cease? Take your 9 friends and make two ace Mythic Dungeon teams and stop complaining already. Super hard content that gives quality rewards and is more close-knit or whatever antisocial newspeak you guys want to prattle on about endlessly.

Wait, 10 player is antisocial and 25 player wasn't? Are you high out of your mind? I've always found that my 10-player groups were ALWAYS very talkative and friendly vs my 25-player groups which were never nearly as close-knit. It's not a matter of being antisocial, it's because you can't have everyone talking when there's 2.5x as many people. If anything, 25-player raids were antisocial, not 10. 25 always felt like a more organized tryhard pug to me than a coordinated raid team.

OT: "sticking to their guns" isn't quite what I'd say, but they did say that it would be "harder for 25-player guilds", which is funny because it just means they'd have more players in the wings, but 10-player could more easily adapt to 15 than 20. There's a reason WoD mythic raid attendance was significantly lower than MoP/earlier heroic raid attendance... Oh well, at least we'll be getting M+.

[sociald1077]

10 man raiding was first brought up in vanilla with stray, scholo and ubrs. Later in tbc with kara and again in wrath with everything including hm's and heroic modes.

It's almost always been a thing. Just because you don't prefer it doesn't mean it's not legitimate for others to do just that.

First, all dungeons outside of UBRS/LBRS were set to 5 mans because Blizz wanted to up the challenge of them. Second, no one in classic thought of running 10 man in dungeons was raiding. It was seen as an easy way to get dungeons done to get gear to start raiding.

In TBC, for fledgling guilds, Kara was actually more of a block than a boon. It forced your raid to break up into the "A" team and the "B" team, and this caused a lot of hassle for guild just starting out and it was worse for feeder guilds.

10 man raid guilds didnt really become an acceptable form of raiding until Wrath.

[hyperhyve]

I usually don't participate in the "10-man raid whine threads" (which have gotten quite rare over the past year or so, fortunately), but I feel like sharing my 2-cents in this one.

For as long as 10-man heroic endgame content was a thing, my friends and I were raiding it as a guild. We had tons of fun in wotlk and cataclysm, although we often times felt like 10-mans were more difficult in some situations than 25-mans were. Nevertheless, we were doing pretty well, even killing Ragnaros heroic pre-nerf, which was quite impressive back in the day.

When we learned about the new mythic system in WoD, we all were pretty disappointed, because we wouldn't be able to continue our 10-man funtimes. But we decided that we would be rolling with it, because flex-mode would never be the appropriate difficulty for us. So we started recruiting people, testing them and looking to cope with the situation as best as we could.
Yes, it took some commitment and effort. Yes, we struggled for a while. But now, at the start of Legion we're currently have 29 people ready to go and start raiding. All of which are decent players, who have formed a nice community over the years.
So if you're telling me that you cannot find enough people to raid with, then either you're incompetent when it comes to organizing a group of 20+ players, or you're just baddies, that people don't wanna team up with for mythic. It's one of those two, nothing more, nothing less.

[Raiju]

So if you're telling me that you cannot find enough people to raid with, then either you're incompetent when it comes to organizing a group of 20+ players, or you're just baddies, that people don't wanna team up with for mythic. It's one of those two, nothing more, nothing less.

Or they're not on the same realm as you and you seem incapable after 2 years of realizing there are many dead realms that can't even field 2 mythic raid teams in their dwindling populations. Xferring isn't an option for many people (it's basically the same as quitting)

[hyperhyve]

Or they're not on the same realm as you and you seem incapable after 2 years of realizing there are many dead realms that can't even field 2 mythic raid teams in their dwindling populations. Xferring isn't an option for many people (it's basically the same as quitting)

I'm not incapable of realizing it, as my friends and I had to transfer servers 2 times already due to dead realms. It's unfortunate, but if changing the realm is the same as quitting to people, then I don't know. If you can't find a group to play the game as you like it (i.e. mythic raiding) on your server, what's holding people back from changing the server ? Even if it's just with the character they plan to raid on?
As I said: it does take some commitment to build up a 20-man group. I'd say transfering your character to another server falls under that. If you don't want to (or can't) invest that sort of commitment, then that's your problem, isn't it?

[Deleted]

15 would not, it would make benches larger than the raid group itself. 10 is unbearable.

[Hotmail]

Skilled players are also a finite resource. The more slots you have to fill, the more chances that you'll end up with raiders who simply can't be managed into pulling good numbers.

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wrath was intentionally tuned lower on 10man.

Interesting. That would certainly explain why so many 10m guilds crashed and burned at the start of Cata.