What exactly is our strength as DPS?

[RuneDK]

Why does everyone think in terms of what kind of utility skills they can bring to a raid? Shouldn't the first a biggest goal be to bring the best dps you can possibly bring to the raid? I never really understood why people dwell so much on their "utility". I can understand the movement arguments, some of which I tend to agree with, but to be mad that DKs don't have enough "raid utility" is silly. Like lets be honest for a second, how many of you would use these super special awesome raid utility abilities? I would bet not very many of you.

Considering we had Gorefiends for two expansions and only had raid spots in some tiers due to it....I'd say your argument of utility not being a big deal is kind of...silly.

[Deleted]

Why does everyone think in terms of what kind of utility skills they can bring to a raid? Shouldn't the first a biggest goal be to bring the best dps you can possibly bring to the raid? I never really understood why people dwell so much on their "utility". I can understand the movement arguments, some of which I tend to agree with, but to be mad that DKs don't have enough "raid utility" is silly. Like lets be honest for a second, how many of you would use these super special awesome raid utility abilities? I would bet not very many of you.

You would never understand unless you are a mythic raider or an upcoming mythic + max dungeon farmer

[Jngizu]

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You can't say they're fine then say oh just one spec. Not everyone likes to play unholy.

I never said they were fine, I too would love to play Frost, although I feel like UH is one of the best designed melee-spec currently. But at least, you have one very strong spec. Frost just needs tuning and will be fine, its gameplay being pretty fun albeit a bit too simple IMHO.

Anyway, yeah, aside from wanting Frost to be brought up to UH's level (which I hope they do), DK's are in a good spot right now. Mobility could be a bit better but that's it.

Ah, also this thread talks about DK's as a whole. Well, UH in its current state is a pretty big strength.

[LordAmbrosia]

Isn't unholy one of the best AOE burst specs in the game? That's always gonna be important.

Honestly every class is crying about how weak they are. That's just how its always been, campaigning for buffs since the devs seem to listen to feedback more than most.

[Hctaz]

Why does everyone think in terms of what kind of utility skills they can bring to a raid? Shouldn't the first a biggest goal be to bring the best dps you can possibly bring to the raid? I never really understood why people dwell so much on their "utility". I can understand the movement arguments, some of which I tend to agree with, but to be mad that DKs don't have enough "raid utility" is silly. Like lets be honest for a second, how many of you would use these super special awesome raid utility abilities? I would bet not very many of you.

DPS/HPS is not always the main concern. The reason Disc was so damn OP during MoP was because of Power Word: Barrier and absorbs. Many guilds stacked disc priests for Barrier alone as it let them basically power their way through certain mechanics like they were a joke. DKs had this in SoO as well with Gorefiend's and Chillblains on Blackfuse and AMZ on multiple fights including Garrosh. Now we have nothing really.

I would say that Gorefiend's should be baseline for Unholy as well as blood, frost should get a Gorefiend's replacement that stuns instead of grips (changed to a root in PvP since they can do this now), and frost's 50% slow should not be limited to being near the target with Remorseless Winter up. It's a shame they removed DnD from Frost honestly =/ Remorseless Winter is cool but they could have given Frost a frozen version of DnD that is a little weaker then Unholy's but has the 50% slow attached to it. As Remorseless Winter is... it's useless if you need to slow anything that blows up in melee range. AMZ should also be put back into the game for the dps specs. We honestly had a lot of utility in MoP if you think about it. Less so than other classes but much more than we do now.

[Dracovian]

Isn't unholy one of the best AOE burst specs in the game? That's always gonna be important.

Honestly every class is crying about how weak they are. That's just how its always been, campaigning for buffs since the devs seem to listen to feedback more than most.

Oh right, DKs only have 1 spec.

[UR1L]

Oh right, DKs only have 1 spec.

Two actually. Unholy and Blood.

[Hoeth]

You would never understand unless you are a mythic raider or an upcoming mythic + max dungeon farmer

Utility is nothing more than a luxury if your DPS is high enough. Do you think guilds would sit fire mages if they lost all of their utility but still did 30% more than the mean?

[Tyrean]

We did a HFC last week so people could try out DH and changes etc. It was just heroic so everything died crazy fast but I will tell you I was the last to everything. Last to the trash pack, last to the adds, last to the boss when it was moving. There was one spot where the tank was dragging boss and I literally could not keep up with him to stay in melee range. Meanwhile the rest of the melee was right up their butts. (No ret)

It is going to be the downfall of the DK on actual charts.

[Eats Compost]

I'd just like one teeny, tiny little blue post about what "feels strong in range/in melee/whatever" is meant to mean. It feels like we're being ignored after being given a non-answer that raises more questions than answers. Even if what they told us more about what they'd like us to be rather than what we are or what we will be, it's be infinitely better than nothing.

I shouldn't have to feel like I'm taking some kind of risk by continuing to main a Death Knight. Right now, that's what it is - a gamble on our damage being consistently good enough to offset low mobility. A gamble based on a specific, loose interpretation of a generally vague statement. It just isn't cool.

[Piz813]

We did a HFC last week so people could try out DH and changes etc. It was just heroic so everything died crazy fast but I will tell you I was the last to everything. Last to the trash pack, last to the adds, last to the boss when it was moving. There was one spot where the tank was dragging boss and I literally could not keep up with him to stay in melee range. Meanwhile the rest of the melee was right up their butts. (No ret)

It is going to be the downfall of the DK on actual charts.

Did you use wraith walk???

[Baddok21]

We did a HFC last week so people could try out DH and changes etc. It was just heroic so everything died crazy fast but I will tell you I was the last to everything. Last to the trash pack, last to the adds, last to the boss when it was moving. There was one spot where the tank was dragging boss and I literally could not keep up with him to stay in melee range. Meanwhile the rest of the melee was right up their butts. (No ret)

It is going to be the downfall of the DK on actual charts.

I can understand trash comment.

but HFC is not exactly the most movement intensive raid they have maid, it actually might be the least what boss were you "chasing"?

[Poisongaz]

You would never understand unless you are a mythic raider or an upcoming mythic + max dungeon farmer

I am a mythic raider... I understand that "utility" is important, but i don't think mandatory utility is needed. Like i dont think that having gorefiends graps is all that important. Not having it means that dps DK now have to prove that they a good dps to get raid spots and not just get spots just because we have OP utility. I prefer having to prove myself over just getting default spots. Also if you are a true mythic raider you most likely already have a home and have shown your usefulness to the raid. Anyone that doesn't is either bad or hates spending to long in one guild, which is the type of person i would hate to have on a team. Also people seem to be forgetting that DK, atleast UH, is pone of the best dps right now. So if you are good at UH then why wouldnt anyone want to take you? I will admit Frost needs a fair bit of work, but I would be willing to bet that at some point this expac frost will be the go to.

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We did a HFC last week so people could try out DH and changes etc. It was just heroic so everything died crazy fast but I will tell you I was the last to everything. Last to the trash pack, last to the adds, last to the boss when it was moving. There was one spot where the tank was dragging boss and I literally could not keep up with him to stay in melee range. Meanwhile the rest of the melee was right up their butts. (No ret)

It is going to be the downfall of the DK on actual charts.

If your tanks are moving the boss that much then your tanks are bad. I have not once since pre-patch had any trouble sticking to bosses and having a good uptime.

[fearer]

I think some guys should consider a reroll if they like to blink out of voids. Dk got good dps for ST and AOE, if you want to be a hopping rabbit you should have picked one.

[Zeds Dead]

Don't bother. People will always make excuses why dks were nerfed. People will always justify why we have the lowest survability and mobility for zero benefits in return.

Johnny come lately Dks who just showed up cause they heard unholy is great and have never set foot in beta will spout uneducated nonsense.

These are the same people who said losing 2h frost would ensure they could balance frost.

These people have huge epeens and believe not only they are the best and their class that they barely understand is.

If you can't realize the bs that had gone on since Cata and continued through this beta cycle.....then there is no hope for you.

[fearer]

Don't bother. People will always make excuses why dks were nerfed. People will always justify why we have the lowest survability and mobility for zero benefits in return.

Johnny come lately Dks who just showed up cause they heard unholy is great and have never set foot in beta will spout uneducated nonsense.

These are the same people who said losing 2h frost would ensure they could balance frost.

These people have huge epeens and believe not only they are the best and their class that they barely understand is.

If you can't realize the bs that had gone on since Cata and continued through this beta cycle.....then there is no hope for you.

maybe not all people think every dk should be a lichking. if you want wotlk dk back, many people will want their spec to perform like in another xpac. That's life.

[Zeds Dead]

maybe not all people think every dk should be a lichking. if you want wotlk dk back, many people will want their spec to perform like in another xpac. That's life.

Did you actually have a point?

Are you saying dks deserve no mobility, low survability with no benefits?

Blizzard stated we should follow a specific model and we haven't since Wotlk. Go back to your own class forums.

[Roland136]

Don't have a problem with mobility if we had damage and/or durability to compensate.

[fearer]

Did you actually have a point?

Are you saying dks deserve no mobility, low survability with no benefits?

Blizzard stated we should follow a specific model and we haven't since Wotlk. Go back to your own class forums.

my first point is, that i dont take orders from you. the second point is as mentioned often enought in this thread:

Dk's are literally top tier AOE AND ST. You got AMS, Icebound, Corpse Shield, wraith walk, grip, battlerez, quite okay self heal and army. probably even more i dont remember. Now you tell me Dks got nothing? i dont know which class you are playing but maybe you should check your login screen if it is a Deathknight.

[Coldvibes]

Personally I also lament at the fact that Frost is just not going to be as good as Unholy will be but the fact is, pure classes have been like that since the beginning of the game. Tons of mages that I know enjoy PvP as Frost are sad that they can't Frost in PvE. A lot of my rogue friends are really sad Sub got turned into the way it is now. I don't even need to start on the loss of Survival being ranged. In a world where we min-max everything and if something is even 5% better than the other we will pick what is stronger of the two or three choices.

On topic: For sustained AoE apart from BM hunters we are solidly #1. For single target damage, probably assassination or a feral druid will beat us from a melee only perspective (spoiler, ferals have always been fantastic ST) but we're still not lagging far behind. I just don't understand why people think we're gimped to the extent where you'll lose your raid spot because of class, that really only applies to world top 100-200. For the rest of us, being a good player will get you your raid spot 100% of the time, regardless of what class you play.