[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[OrcsRLame]

If mobility is the most important for you in a melee class, then you are simply playing the wrong class. Ret have never been and never will be a very mobile class, so I'm not sure what you are expecting.



At 100, Crusade is only better than DP on very short fights, such as Zakuun and Reaver, and this is mainly due to our 2 set.

Even on longer fights, like Archimonde, the vast majority of top logs use Crusade. Anecdotally, the dps loss for me when using DP is very visible. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...ec=Retribution

And keep in mind, trying to get good logs favors RNG mechanics, because parses with good RNG will be closer to the top for what should be obvious reasons. The fact that there's only 1 DP in the top 20 is very telling.

[Snegovik]

If mobility is the most important for you in a melee class, then you are simply playing the wrong class. Ret have never been and never will be a very mobile class, so I'm not sure what you are expecting.
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I didnt clarify what mobility meant to me =), i didnt mean being able to move around the map fast like ferals/monks. But rather being almost "immune" to slows and snares with an ability to have a high uptime on a target.

But ya prob just need get myself a WW :P

[TomatoBisque]

I dont see anyone saying we shouldnt do as much damage as pure dps because were hybrids. I havent seen anyone mention that in here in a long time, so I have no idea what youre talking about. I dont really think anyone in here right now believes that, so again, I have no idea what youre talking about or where that even came from.

You don't see it much on the Paladin forums, but if you look around in random GD threads or on other sites like Reddit, you see people who think stuff like Lay on Hands and BoP are great PvE utility that warrants us having mediocre damage/poor mobility

[Ryuji]

Well you know me Im sure, Ive advocated for prot pvp in here and everywhere else for a while. Its insanely fun and even one of the two top ret pvpers that I know went prot and seems to be enjoying it. Aveng is who Im talking about here and he enjoyed it a lot, the comp he played in was also really good and had a lot of uses for prot.

Now, in terms of what your talking about, Im not sure if you are talking about ret pvp or pve but for ret pve the rotation changes when you take Zeal and DH for AoE. Its pretty different when compared to the single target rotation which consists of fires and BoW.

In terms of pvp, theres no reason to really switch talents and no reason to really take zeal or DH, so in terms of pvp nothing will change there. I havent played ret pvp in a while since I much prefer prot now.

Now, if you want procs, Id just take Divine purpose. In pve Ive been having a lot of fun with it, but theres no warning when you get a proc so you need to have a weakaura for it. Ive gotten back to back TV procs and its actually been insane at times. If you already have a lot of haste its basically the only viable talent in that tier.

Yeah it definitely feels a lot more enjoyable to Prot PvP. and I meant in PvE for rotation stuff. The rotation kinda changes but I mean you just replace abilities with aoe versions of 'em but DH has a lot longer cd than BoW/J.

What I would honestly like is if Judgement would just always apply a mass judgement on everything around your target because it feels meh to judge 2 or so targets(4 with the talent on zeal/FoJ row) and have DS feel like it hits like a wet noodle because a bunch of the mobs you're hitting don't have the debuff on 'em. That only applies to mass aoe instead of, say, 4-6 targets though so it's fairly rare.

[Taeldorian]

Yeah it definitely feels a lot more enjoyable to Prot PvP. and I meant in PvE for rotation stuff. The rotation kinda changes but I mean you just replace abilities with aoe versions of 'em but DH has a lot longer cd than BoW/J.

What I would honestly like is if Judgement would just always apply a mass judgement on everything around your target because it feels meh to judge 2 or so targets(4 with the talent on zeal/FoJ row) and have DS feel like it hits like a wet noodle because a bunch of the mobs you're hitting don't have the debuff on 'em. That only applies to mass aoe instead of, say, 4-6 targets though so it's fairly rare.

We actually had that a while ago. Mass judgement was named something else before and it affected a lot of targets in the area, making our aoe decent, but it was removed and replaced with a shittier version of itself I believe. I dont remember how that exactly went down, all I remember is that we had something relative to what youre asking for and it basically got removed lol.

I dont think they want us to be doing insanely good aoe, I think they want our niche to be on ST/cleave fights. We have AoE, its just not that great and I think thats what they want. Which is fine, Fury for example is good on cleave/aoe but have sucky ST damage on beta. Im not sure if this is really what they want, and obviously right now our numbers are lower than where they should be, so Im really not sure but either way, the reason we dont have AoE abilities like that is because they dont seem to want us to have good AoE. Which is fine as long as they buff our ST (which in turn will buff cleave numbers as well}.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I doubt it's people playing the wrong class. We've always had decent mobility since maybe Wrath. Not the crap we have now. So I don't buy that argument.

[Taeldorian]

I doubt it's people playing the wrong class. We've always had decent mobility since maybe Wrath. Not the crap we have now. So I don't buy that argument.

If you can explain to me how two charges of a 100% movement speed buff that lasts for 6 seconds total or 3 seconds each is bad, then I can understand where youre coming from. I absolutely thought our mobility was awful when we had to talent just to get any mobility at all, but now we can talent for two charges of DS. I dont see why thats bad at all.

Ive been raid testing throughout beta and 2 charges of steed is plenty on pretty much every fight in EM. Any class without baseline movement speed or mobility like Monks and Dhs will struggle on one or two fights in NH. DKs now have less mobility then we do and they arent really even complaining as much. I really think its time to move past this whole mobility argument for pve (which is what Im assuming your discussing, if not just disregard this post}.

[Neldarie]

DK has the same amount of "afk" dmg as we have active and vice versa. So having less mobility for them is not as big of a deal as it is for us.
And ye, regarding movement fights, I was mostly refering to NH. Like 2nd boss has more movement in it than whole of EN raid prolly.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

If you can explain to me how two charges of a 100% movement speed buff that lasts for 6 seconds total or 3 seconds each is bad, then I can understand where youre coming from. I absolutely thought our mobility was awful when we had to talent just to get any mobility at all, but now we can talent for two charges of DS. I dont see why thats bad at all.

Ive been raid testing throughout beta and 2 charges of steed is plenty on pretty much every fight in EM. Any class without baseline movement speed or mobility like Monks and Dhs will struggle on one or two fights in NH. DKs now have less mobility then we do and they arent really even complaining as much. I really think its time to move past this whole mobility argument for pve (which is what Im assuming your discussing, if not just disregard this post}.

It's essentially 6 seconds of decent mobility on a pony. Not very worthwhile. 45 second waiting period. Insanely unreliable on a PVP format. Honestly I don't even like that kind of mobility. I already suggested what I'd be ok with. It's not even that OP for fucks sake. I don't even agree with taking what Dk's mobility had. Honestly it was fine IMO.

[Taeldorian]

It's essentially 6 seconds of decent mobility on a pony. Not very worthwhile. 45 second waiting period. Insanely unreliable on a PVP format. Honestly I don't even like that kind of mobility. I already suggested what I'd be ok with. It's not even that OP for fucks sake.

Never said it was even close to Op. Its 6 seconds of good utility on a 45 second CD. If youve raid tested at all in Legion then you know thats sufficient enough for each fight. Theres maybe one fight in EN that can cause a problem if you arent in an organized raiding guild, but thats about it. NH has two fights that are somewhat annoying, so anything without DH or Monk mobility may have trouble on those fights in particular.

Again, any good reason to say that DS is bad in pve would be great. If we still didnt have it baseline Id agree with you, but we have it baseline and have a talent that allows us to use it twice. Its not the best mobility in the world but its not nearly all that bad and its sufficient in pve. Havent had any problems since the change aside from the two fights in NH. You not liking that kind of mobility doesnt make it bad.

Keep in mind, Im not talking about pvp. Im specifically mentioning pve. I already know its dogshit in pvp but thats not what Im talking about.

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DK has the same amount of "afk" dmg as we have active and vice versa. So having less mobility for them is not as big of a deal as it is for us.
And ye, regarding movement fights, I was mostly refering to NH. Like 2nd boss has more movement in it than whole of EN raid prolly.

Yeah. Thats what Im saying. NH has two fights, the second boss and the one towards the middle (cant remember the names and honestly dont want to, fuck those fights} that are annoying for anyone without DH or Monk mobility. Thats it though, DS is sufficient for basically every fight in EN and every fight aside from those two in NH. That doesnt make it bad at all. Its suited me perfectly fine since we got it baseline for any fight that requires some movement, and cavalier has suited me for any movement heavy fight.

[Neldarie]

Still dont like the just 2charge thing for a whole talent. Get to use both in short period of time as you said for those 6seconds of movement and spend next 70-80secs waiting for that same "power" mobile period again.

You're essentially trading something so powerfull (divine intervention) for a 2nd "half-arsed" steed. Being a charge system it will never have its full value. And yes having it baseline just because of that is pretty strong.

[Taeldorian]

Still dont like the just 2charge thing for a whole talent. Get to use both in short period of time as you said for those 6seconds of movement and spend next 70-80secs waiting for that same "power" mobile period again.

That amount of downtime is okay in EN. Nothing really requires you to use the 2 charges at the same time in EN anyway and if youre in an organized raiding guild you would go to the closest tentacle on Il which is one of the heavier movement fights in EN which doesnt even really require DS. I still use it when I have to get to a tentacle but I never used it twice in a row in EN. I mean hell, if I liked any of the other two talents on that row I wouldnt even take Cavalier on half the fights in EN, but the other two talents are garbage in pve so I hardly ever switch from Cav. 3 seconds at 100% speed is sufficient enough on every fight in EN. 6 seconds at 100% speed makes it even better. Theres really no reason to use the charges twice in a row though, at least not in EN.

Now, in NH, that kind of downtime is fine except for those two fights we were discussing before. Those two fights you have to be insanely careful, and throughout each fight you will be required to use DS twice in a row most likely, so aside from those two fights DS is absolutely fine. DKs, pallies, priests and really anything without a shitload of mobility will suffer on those two fights, so Im assuming thats intended. DS not being great on two fights out of 10 doesnt make it bad, not even close.

Just in case you were wondering, the two fights Im talking about are Chronomatic and Elisande. Eli requires you to keep the buff up as long as you possibly can in mythic, so it gets a bit challenging there. Chronomatic is just annoying, dont wanna go over it. Trill is kind of annoying as well but double DS was great on that fight.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I'm skeptical to be honest. I think it's going to be frustrating. Not to mention I just think the idea of going on a pony for roughly 6 seconds every so often is well quite dumb and it doesn't sound practical like at all. Divine Intervention is pretty strong but I value my mobility a bit more then that talent.

[Taeldorian]

I'm skeptical to be honest. I think it's going to be frustrating. Not to mention I just think the idea of going on a pony for roughly 6 seconds every so often is well quite dumb and it doesn't sound practical like at all.

Were discussing practicality in a video game heavily based on fantasy? Not to mention the eel monsters and cow people along with the talking crabs.

You can be as skeptical as you want, Im not telling you not to be. Calling a spell bad though because you dont find it practical is a bit of a stretch.

Ive found use for it on every single fight in EN, and on some fights in there I didnt even need double steed. Same goes for NH aside from two fights that I mentioned above. Again, you not liking a spell and a spell being bad are two different things. Now that DS is baseline its not really bad at all and thats not even including the fact we can use it twice.

Not gonna restate everything Ive stated in the past few minutes, but the reasoning I gave above should show that its a good ability. If not, youre just going to have to get into those raids yourself and see with your own eyes. It being impractical doesnt make it bad and thats not really even an argument in terms of what were discussing either. Thats just something you dislike about it, has nothing to do with how good or bad it is as mobility.

Edit- Not trying to attack you either. Dont want it to seem like that. Just trying to point out that DS isnt bad, at least not anymore now that its baseline and can be improved further through talents. Raid testing with my guild has shown me that, so when you get into the raids yourself if you do plan on raiding youll figure that out.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Were discussing practicality in a video game heavily based on fantasy? Not to mention the eel monsters and cow people along with the talking crabs.

You can be as skeptical as you want, Im not telling you not to be. Calling a spell bad though because you dont find it practical is a bit of a stretch.

Ive found use for it on every single fight in EN, and on some fights in there I didnt even need double steed. Same goes for NH aside from two fights that I mentioned above. Again, you not liking a spell and a spell being bad are two different things. Now that DS is baseline its not really bad at all and thats not even including the fact we can use it twice.

Not gonna restate everything Ive stated in the past few minutes, but the reasoning I gave above should show that its a good ability. If not, youre just going to have to get into those raids yourself and see with your own eyes. It being impractical doesnt make it bad and thats not really even an argument in terms of what were discussing either. Thats just something you dislike about it, has nothing to do with how good or bad it is as mobility.

Edit- Not trying to attack you either. Dont want it to seem like that. Just trying to point out that DS isnt bad, at least not anymore now that its baseline and can be improved further through talents. Raid testing with my guild has shown me that, so when you get into the raids yourself if you do plan on raiding youll figure that out.

It's helpful as I said but it's not a particularly powerful talent either at least in comparison to what is there. Let's also note the god awful Seal of Light needs to go away.

[Neldarie]

DS is totally fine no question about that hence what I said baseline steed is op. I just find both talents: Cavalier and Seal of Light lacking.

[Taeldorian]

It's helpful but it's not a good spell either.

Wont argue. Im not sure if youve been raid testing or not but if not, youll see that a lot of movement issues are solved with having DS baseline or two Divine Steeds. Cant argue any further though, its clear you dislike the spell in general. Not sure if youre refuting that its generally good because you think its impractical, but I wont argue any further. Youll see for yourself eventually.

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DS is totally fine no question about that hence what I said baseline steed is op. I just find both talents: Cavalier and Seal of Light lacking.

This. Im glad you understand that. I agree with the talents, Cavalier could be a bit more interesting rather than a flat second charge, but eh. As for Seal of Light...yeah, I really wish that ability was something different. I dislike having to take Cavalier even on fights that dont require me to use two divine steeds by the time the first one recharges.

[Deleted]

Even on longer fights, like Archimonde, the vast majority of top logs use Crusade. Anecdotally, the dps loss for me when using DP is very visible. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...ec=Retribution

propably because of the bugg( i think it's a bugg at elast) that lets you keep your crusade stacks if you spamm the ability just as it about to run out giving you some 45+ seconds of fully stacked crusade.

withouth the 2 set bonus on our tier gear this would be impossible and that lowers the value of crusade quite a bit. I'ts proapbly still going to be the top talent when we got the extra duration from ashbringer but before that i can see DP winning out and DP is propably winning out atm for people withouth the set bonus or with high latency since higher latency makes it ahrder to refresh it in time to ahve the stacks carry over

[scapeg]

Just found this on Blizz forums:
https://secure.twitch.tv/cdewx/v/79934867?t=05h39m26s

I was watching this, thinking oh man that poor ret does no damage at all,
that moment you realize it was YOU playing the ret. :O xD

....priceless

ofcs its pre dmg buff ^^

[Taeldorian]

Just found this on Blizz forums:
https://secure.twitch.tv/cdewx/v/79934867?t=05h39m26s

I was watching this, thinking oh man that poor ret does no damage at all,
that moment you realize it was YOU playing the ret. :O xD

....priceless

ofcs its pre dmg buff ^^

I rememeber seeing that live, that was actually really funny but a pretty long time ago. Was that actually you? If so, that's really cool.