What exactly is our strength as DPS?

[LordAmbrosia]

Oh right, DKs only have 1 spec.

Well everyone talks about mages being broken, they only have 1 spec too. The others are quite far behind.

As to why anyone would even WANT to play frost, i'll never know. Boring as sin, nothing remotely interesting about it.

[Zeds Dead]

my first point is, that i dont take orders from you. the second point is as mentioned often enought in this thread:

Dk's are literally top tier AOE AND ST. You got AMS, Icebound, Corpse Shield, wraith walk, grip, battlerez, quite okay self heal and army. probably even more i dont remember. Now you tell me Dks got nothing? i dont know which class you are playing but maybe you should check your login screen if it is a Deathknight.

According to blizzard we should top the charts but sadly your information is very outdated.

Unholy was nerfed to average and frost is the worst in game.

In case you didnt realize, that's what this entire post is about.

Tell me more about how great Ams(standard anti magic cd now given to practicaly everyone) ibf(worst defensive in game)subpar heal that cost resources, and army(lol) are. These abilities have all been massively nerfed.

Your not a dk and you haven't put up with this Rollercoaster for four expansions so I don't expect you to understand. It is the same pattern repeating itself.

[Deleted]

I am a mythic raider... I understand that "utility" is important, but i don't think mandatory utility is needed. Like i dont think that having gorefiends graps is all that important. Not having it means that dps DK now have to prove that they a good dps to get raid spots and not just get spots just because we have OP utility. I prefer having to prove myself over just getting default spots. Also if you are a true mythic raider you most likely already have a home and have shown your usefulness to the raid. Anyone that doesn't is either bad or hates spending to long in one guild, which is the type of person i would hate to have on a team. Also people seem to be forgetting that DK, atleast UH, is pone of the best dps right now. So if you are good at UH then why wouldnt anyone want to take you? I will admit Frost needs a fair bit of work, but I would be willing to bet that at some point this expac frost will be the go to.

Its not about proving anything. In any discussion about class vs class, you always pressume equal skill unless something is proven to be otherwise.

And right now idd rather have an equally skilled firemage (more dps) or equally skilled warlock (portal and fine dps) than a DK.

Warlock portal is pretty much mandatory, and also bring summons, is ranged, and have fine dps.

What i am trying to say is, if there is even the slightest hindering to a DK's dps in one encounter, we dont have anything else, we are at the whims of the mechanics, more so than any other class. At least ret has some form of utility in these cases, and the rest have high mobility.

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Utility is nothing more than a luxury if your DPS is high enough. Do you think guilds would sit fire mages if they lost all of their utility but still did 30% more than the mean?

No, because if you add 30% to the already super strong fire mages their ranged DPS would be a worthwhile asset.

DK is not in that position. While we deal good damage when we are on a target, that target might sudddently not be that easy to follow for a melee.
We are however fine at aoe, but then again, so are mages.

Utility that is worthwhile is worth bringing classes for alone though. Utility is sometimes mandatory and key to winning progression fights

I mean... just take Disc priest absorb spam at most of the expansion with pre-bubbling aoe bursts and stuff like Clarity of Will to bypass anti-healing on Brackenspore Mythic etc etc.

And do i need to mention Warlock portals which act like a raidwide triple mage blink at 1,5 min cd.

That is utility that is so strong, you would easily sacrifice a bit of healing/dps to get. DK's only have immobile melee dps. So if we are disrupted, then we are pretty much fucked.

[HTowN]

"Grass is always greener on the other side of the fence."

[Gemini Soul]

Would not be surprised if Unholy gets a nerf from after Legion goes live till a week after EN opens up

[Deleted]

According to blizzard we should top the charts but sadly your information is very outdated.

Unholy was nerfed to average and frost is the worst in game.

In case you didnt realize, that's what this entire post is about.

Tell me more about how great Ams(standard anti magic cd now given to practicaly everyone) ibf(worst defensive in game)subpar heal that cost resources, and army(lol) are. These abilities have all been massively nerfed.

Your not a dk and you haven't put up with this Rollercoaster for four expansions so I don't expect you to understand. It is the same pattern repeating itself.

amry is actully quite a string cd now, deals more base dmg then did in wod, and the debuffs the ghouls aplly

[Rothulean1]

Would not be surprised if Unholy gets a nerf from after Legion goes live till a week after EN opens up

I would. Bigger outliers than us atm potentially.

[Deleted]

I would. Bigger outliers than us atm potentially.

they want all specs to be close so more likly the buff bad dps and nerf the overly good ones then unholy, could see nerf to epidemic though.

[Rothulean1]

Epidemic was already nerfed a few weeks ago. Its fine. Rogues appear to be the big outliers atm.

[Baddok21]

Its not about proving anything. In any discussion about class vs class, you always pressume equal skill unless something is proven to be otherwise.

And right now idd rather have an equally skilled firemage (more dps) or equally skilled warlock (portal and fine dps) than a DK.

Warlock portal is pretty much mandatory, and also bring summons, is ranged, and have fine dps.

What i am trying to say is, if there is even the slightest hindering to a DK's dps in one encounter, we dont have anything else, we are at the whims of the mechanics, more so than any other class. At least ret has some form of utility in these cases, and the rest have high mobility.

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No, because if you add 30% to the already super strong fire mages their ranged DPS would be a worthwhile asset.

DK is not in that position. While we deal good damage when we are on a target, that target might sudddently not be that easy to follow for a melee.
We are however fine at aoe, but then again, so are mages.

Utility that is worthwhile is worth bringing classes for alone though. Utility is sometimes mandatory and key to winning progression fights

I mean... just take Disc priest absorb spam at most of the expansion with pre-bubbling aoe bursts and stuff like Clarity of Will to bypass anti-healing on Brackenspore Mythic etc etc.

And do i need to mention Warlock portals which act like a raidwide triple mage blink at 1,5 min cd.

That is utility that is so strong, you would easily sacrifice a bit of healing/dps to get. DK's only have immobile melee dps. So if we are disrupted, then we are pretty much fucked.

Last time i checked...

Melee are not competing with ranged for a spot, if your mythic raiding you should understand that. your raids taking 5 melee those 5 melee are the only thing im concerned with, BECAUSE if i joined a raid that took 0 melee in favor of higher ranged DPS i would have joined that guild with the assumption I would ALSO have a ranged geared on the side because its clearly a top 15 guild that would take 14 boomkins if nessecary.

Even if rogues are really strong we would then bring 2, that still leaves 3 melee spots im competing for, at no point have i ever thought "man this Mage is gonna take my spot because they do more DPS" hes not my competition, the Ret/War/Enhan/WW/Rogue are.

[Deleted]

Unholy was just designed exceptionally well, it has a transition to any form of DPS you want it to excel at with virtually no overlap.

Frost on the otherhand...

What is so wrong with frost that I don't see though?

Single target burst for frost is amazing, AOE burst is very powerful (remorseless winter, breath of sindragosa, rime procs,fury of syndragosa), sustained AOE is weaker and the sustained single target damage is quite good.

The mobility is basically the same, survival is better with unholy but hey have a look at enhancement shaman, survival hunter, all these burst specs don't have much defensive tools.

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According to blizzard we should top the charts but sadly your information is very outdated.

Unholy was nerfed to average and frost is the worst in game.

In case you didnt realize, that's what this entire post is about.

Tell me more about how great Ams(standard anti magic cd now given to practicaly everyone) ibf(worst defensive in game)subpar heal that cost resources, and army(lol) are. These abilities have all been massively nerfed.

Your not a dk and you haven't put up with this Rollercoaster for four expansions so I don't expect you to understand. It is the same pattern repeating itself.

God,the amount of senseless whining in here, just like any other class discussion forum here


Literally every class discussion in wow forums is about whining how awful each class/spec is.

Pretty hilarious that in every class discussion everyone just believes the other class is always better (just go look at paladins,warriors,even rogues who talk about op DKs), the same goes for ranged classes, even mages dare to whine. There is no point in this senseless immature discussions about FOTM, when raids open all your negative misinformation will be proven WRONG.

"Grass is always greener"

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I think some guys should consider a reroll if they like to blink out of voids. Dk got good dps for ST and AOE, if you want to be a hopping rabbit you should have picked one.

Its like they discover since WOTLK that DK was always weak on the mobility front, even with death advance.I have seen the same stuff about many specs, including paladins and shamans. I think most are FOTM rerollers pretending to be experienced players

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Don't bother. People will always make excuses why dks were nerfed. People will always justify why we have the lowest survability and mobility for zero benefits in return.

Johnny come lately Dks who just showed up cause they heard unholy is great and have never set foot in beta will spout uneducated nonsense.

These are the same people who said losing 2h frost would ensure they could balance frost.

These people have huge epeens and believe not only they are the best and their class that they barely understand is.

If you can't realize the bs that had gone on since Cata and continued through this beta cycle.....then there is no hope for you.

"blabla I want to one shot people just like in WOTLK early days". These comments reminds me of ret paladins during that same era who pretended to be balanced. I guess class balance can never be a serious discussion among players given that most just want a faceroll spec and call it "balanced"

[jSewell]

Frost isn't "the worst", the sky isn't falling. Frost wears plate armor, there's your raid utility lol.

[Spacewalrus2010]

Ohh boy, so we are meant to be hulking slow masses of meat, but when we finally get close we should be rocking everyone's socks off?

Right, okay, i can get behind that, a slow juggernaut that is immensely powerful if he gets close.

I can't speak for PvE content, but for PvP when he says "but feel very strong" strong can mean different things. I've PvPed with my DK for quite sometime since the prepatch and from what I can gather they mean "once we get in range, you aren't getting away." Things like Death grip, hook/stuns from pet, and constant slowing (this is more applicable for frost than unholy) says to me they are trying to balance around that style mentioned. I don't think they necessarily meant more damage than others.

But if you are talking purely PvE perspective damage-wise, then I can't help you. I sincerely believe there never will be "balanced dps." At least from the perspective of the community.

[Dracovian]

What is so wrong with frost that I don't see though?

Single target burst for frost is amazing, AOE burst is very powerful (remorseless winter, breath of sindragosa, rime procs,fury of syndragosa), sustained AOE is weaker and the sustained single target damage is quite good.

I don't think you know what burst means. Where's your "burst" if you don't get any KM procs? You can't call coin-flip potential a class strength.

[Sarkol]

Coming to the DK forums to see people saying Unholy is bad. Kill me now.

[Freedom]

All these morons saying DK is TRASH because it's not #1 for Mythic WORLD FIRSTS while they themselves are much lower than server first remind me of children in highschool talking about the popular kid's choice of clothing. There are very few people in the school population that can pull off looking supermodel good in expensive revealing clothes, and very few people who can pull off top 100 world ranks as a guild or individual DPS ranking. You aren't world first, you can't afford the time commitment; your parents can't afford Abercrombie and Fitch or whatever - calm the fuck down.

Whine on, you hyperbolic diamonds. I'll just be over here, taking a more relaxed and casual approach.

Coming to the DK forums to see people saying Unholy is bad. Kill me now.

"First world" WoW problems, exactly.

[Deleted]

What is so wrong with frost that I don't see though?

Single target burst for frost is amazing, AOE burst is very powerful (remorseless winter, breath of sindragosa, rime procs,fury of syndragosa), sustained AOE is weaker and the sustained single target damage is quite good.

The mobility is basically the same, survival is better with unholy but hey have a look at enhancement shaman, survival hunter, all these burst specs don't have much defensive tools.

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God,the amount of senseless whining in here, just like any other class discussion forum here


Literally every class discussion in wow forums is about whining how awful each class/spec is.

Pretty hilarious that in every class discussion everyone just believes the other class is always better (just go look at paladins,warriors,even rogues who talk about op DKs), the same goes for ranged classes, even mages dare to whine. There is no point in this senseless immature discussions about FOTM, when raids open all your negative misinformation will be proven WRONG.

"Grass is always greener"

- - - Updated - - -



Its like they discover since WOTLK that DK was always weak on the mobility front, even with death advance.I have seen the same stuff about many specs, including paladins and shamans. I think most are FOTM rerollers pretending to be experienced players

- - - Updated - - -



"blabla I want to one shot people just like in WOTLK early days". These comments reminds me of ret paladins during that same era who pretended to be balanced. I guess class balance can never be a serious discussion among players given that most just want a faceroll spec and call it "balanced"

HB even with rime doesnt hit very hard, evrything else hits harder, remorsless winter and FC(if crits) are quite strong,breath of sindragosa is more st/cleave then real on aoe, fury of sindragosa is strong aoe but 5min cd and is a line which cna be good or bad depending on siutation. ST burst with breath and KM procs its good, else no procs youre garbage compared to other(not meant to be mean, but if frost doesnt get alot of KM procs its dmg is low).


Unholy is better at aoe, epidemic (mainly epimdemic,)and dnd/defile + SS/CS cleave is very stong, frost needs crits or their 5min cd to do any real good aoe. Unholy doesnt need proc/crits to be able to do dmg while frost does. On long cleave frost is very good with FC, but on bursst aoe(manno imps for example) unholy is gonna do better and for FC targets need to be in melee range and stacked, while doesnt need for UH.

[Hoeth]

I don't think you know what burst means. Where's your "burst" if you don't get any KM procs? You can't call coin-flip potential a class strength.

KM procs aren't all that important for ST burst, but then I guess you are the expert here......

[Baddok21]

What is so wrong with frost that I don't see though?

Single target burst for frost is amazing, AOE burst is very powerful (remorseless winter, breath of sindragosa, rime procs,fury of syndragosa), sustained AOE is weaker and the sustained single target damage is quite good.

The mobility is basically the same, survival is better with unholy but hey have a look at enhancement shaman, survival hunter, all these burst specs don't have much defensive tools.

Let me First pre-face my comments by stating this

Legion frost is the most fun (subjective) in depth and visually pleasing form of Frost i have ever seen from Wrath to WoD, it has a more engaging talents, rotation then it has ever had in my oppinion. Objectively i like Legion Frost more than all its other incarnations.

Now thats out of the way, why i said before Frost has a lot of overlap is due to two things:

1) New Killing Machine change
2) Frost scythe

1) killing Machine

For Killing Machine, the overlap is from a gearing perspective, I require Crit rating to activate killing machine procs (aside from the naked 5% we all have) some people said "great, this gives us some crit scaling" on its face value if you did not look at it with any depth you might agree, but to a large number of us we quickly said... "If i gear myself in enough crit i will hit a point where i don't even "need" or "care" about the Killing machine mechanic" this is basicly what you experience right now if your mythic geared. I have 42.9-44% crit in my frost set up i don't particularly need killing machine anymore.

the KM mechanic would have been better served if it simply granted OB an extra 10-15% crit chance AND gave bonus dmg to Rime and Obliterate on critical strikes equal to the death knights crit rate (tangible and reasonable crit scaling).

this is why the spec is stepping over itself in terms of this single mechanic

2) Frostscythe

I love this talent, in fact i dont no a single FDK player who does not love this talent, I would go as far to say personally "I don't enjoy/want to play a variation of frost that does not have Frostscythe specced" even my BoS build i dont bother to take RA (simply because i have the gear to work around it). That being said Frostscythe from the very start has been on a collision course with Obliterate once they removed its initial 6 second CD (reduced by haste) this has put the talent and the baseline ability at odds. What bothers me, is that the rotation is most fulfilling when Obliterate and Frostscythe compliment each other rather than fight each other for the GCD use. This also drums up another issue of Frostscythe constantly being retuned (down) because if it does good single target then its frankly Overpowered in AoE/Cleave (the numerous nerfs to this very effect echo this concern).

For frostscythe i again propose we take a page out of the Unholy playbook (which is designed so beautifully) give Frostscythe a 6 second CD reduced by haste remove its cleave dmg and restore its original single target dmg. THEN you add the caveat that while under the effect of remorseless winter Frostscythe no longer has a CD and strikes all target in a cone in front of the DK). you basicly make remorseless winter act like DnD and make Frostscythe function like Scourge strike.

This allows frost to still use OB and FSc in its single target rotation in unison (not in conflict)
This allows them to tune Remoreseless winter to be SAVED for AoE/Cleave scenario's and not just used on CD (unless you spec for gathering storm)
this allows frost to have a transition of abilities and priorities going from single target to AoE

one of the best parts of unholy is going from single trash to and AoE trash pack because your about to change your priorities rotation and abilities from scenario to scenario and you never worry your single target dmg abilities will be nerfed because the dmg they do in AoE, the built in spec restrictions prevent this from being an issue.

i hope that fully explains my position or rather my comment about frost having "Overlap"

[Deleted]

I don't think you know what burst means. Where's your "burst" if you don't get any KM procs? You can't call coin-flip potential a class strength.

I have KM procs so many times, its way better than other proc based specs (enhancement for example) and your frost strike does a lot of damage too+rime. So please, I know you min maxers prefer to play the game through sims and what people tell you on forums but actually go and play your DK before crying.

And you have a neat little talent called obliteration which makes sure you have those procs, so please don't even pretend like frost DK does not have good burst, these forums are becoming pathetic cry chambers

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Coming to the DK forums to see people saying Unholy is bad. Kill me now.

I've seen fire mages complaining they are trash so at this point I think these forums are full of trolls or just FOTM rerollers who pretend they have played X class since vanilla (or WOTLK in this case) but are full of shit.