Momentum vs Nemesis

[Delekii]

Except it's really really not, because if you're holding them you're losing a massive damage loss. Just from FR damage alone. Guess what you do for momentum? Use FR before it caps, or when a bunch of AoE is coming up if you don't have the buff. You can spam it back to back when necessary, but generally won't. Guess what you do for nemesis? Use FR before it caps, or when a bunch of AoE is coming up.

The playstyle is exactly the same. That's the point I, and others, keep trying to make in these threads: if you're bitching about momentum movement you're literally saying you hate the same thing you're praising for being "not momentum" when it comes to movement. It's just part of what Havoc does.

Without momentum, you don't have to line up FR with cooldowns, and you don't lose as much damage as when talented into momentum. It's really not rocket science.

Since I edited in the following, I will repeat it for your benefit:

If it is the case that the gameplay is unchanged by momentum's existence, there is no logical reason to persist with it's existence, and it is purely a flat dps buff (something that doesn't exist anywhere else in the talent system of WoW currently). So, either momentum doesn't change havoc gameplay and it is a failure of a (dps-oriented) talent, or it does and your argument is void. Which is it?

If the gameplay style of havoc is unchanged by the talent, as you said: "Like it or not, the momentum "playstyle", without momentum being taken, is a core partof Havoc." then the talent could equally say "You do x% more damage", and would have the same effect on havoc gameplay.

If this is not the case, then your quote is false.

So, I ask the question: If momentum has no net effect on havoc's gameplay, why are you so invested in it remaining in the game?

[The Archmage]

As i said, often, what i dislike about Momentum is that it forces you to use your movement abilities rotationally instead of when it would be more logical (and even more beneficial) to use them. For example, a large group of adds spawn and, without Momentum, there is a high chance that i will have the 2 charges of Fel Rush up and running to simply do more damage in that short span of time, which i most likely won't have if i have to use them pretty much on cd for Momentum's uptme.

That same "no cd to maintain a buff" usage that will make it so i cannot use my movement abilites for the purpose they even exists, which is to make me move faster out of potential dangers, allowing me more uptime on my target compared to other melee classes.

In my opinion, Momentum actually deprives the class of complexity instead of adding to it. There is a big difference between min/maxing both damage and movement benefits of our abilities, using them exactly when they provide the most benefit, instead of simply doing them "rotationally" to maintain a buff... which requires no skill whatsoever imho, only a good timing addon.

[elfporn]

Does everyone here whining about using FR rotationally(ie: losing movement ability when needed) forget that the havoc mastery increases movement speed?

You will passively have a 30% movement speed increase (likely higher). Losing FR as an "escape button" is not an excuse for the mobility rotation(or yourself) being bad. It's compensated for.

[Gratlim]

Does everyone here whining about using FR rotationally(ie: losing movement ability when needed) forget that the havoc mastery increases movement speed?

You will passively have a 30% movement speed increase (likely higher). Losing FR as an "escape button" is not an excuse for the mobility rotation(or yourself) being bad. It's compensated for.

You mean with mythic high end gear at the end of Legion or that's what you have on beta at 110 with okish gear? Seems high compared to scaling at 100.
I do not have beta so that is a legit question. Would think 20-25% is more likely. Especially with reforging gone.

But good news if it is true.

[Delekii]

Does everyone here whining about using FR rotationally(ie: losing movement ability when needed) forget that the havoc mastery increases movement speed?

You will passively have a 30% movement speed increase (likely higher). Losing FR as an "escape button" is not an excuse for the mobility rotation(or yourself) being bad. It's compensated for.

If you have 30% mastery at level 110 as a havoc demon hunter you are doing it horribly wrong. Unless stat weights have changed considerably in the past few weeks, mastery is the worst stat for havoc, behind even versatility. Sims being sims people will probably go for some mastery for quality of life, but it certainly won't be the top priority.

[mitre27]

Does everyone here whining about using FR rotationally(ie: losing movement ability when needed) forget that the havoc mastery increases movement speed?

You will passively have a 30% movement speed increase (likely higher). Losing FR as an "escape button" is not an excuse for the mobility rotation(or yourself) being bad. It's compensated for.

Mastery is a low stat prio so it's not like we will be rolling in it, and even if we were, it is still frustrating having to use our core (And only real) movement skill rotationally.

Ferals have a passive 20% or so movement right? But they still have sprint and a blink if they talent into it.

[cRawmode]

In my humble opinion these statements stem from the fact that many people do not really know how Havoc is really meant to be played. Or what is the optimal way of maximizing DPS as Havoc. They see VR and FR as movement abilities that are there to jump around when they need an oh shit button to move out of stuff or switch targets.

But they are not.

as @Vanyali and many others tried to point out, you will use those movement abilities either way. With momentum you gain more when you chain those movement abilities in certain windows which adds depth to the gameplay. However you do not suddenly start to use your movement abilities just because you talented into momentum. You're doing that anyway. You do however get more out of the buff if you don't VR FR FR in 3 GCDs. So there is that.

I strongly believe that Blizzard's intention is exactly that for Havoc. They want the DH Gameplay to be about using constant mobility to deal even higher damage. I do like this design. Hence I will main this class.

What I am not doing is choosing to play Mage and then go to the Mage forums and complain they stand in place and cast a lot, because that would be absolutely unreasonable.

[Schizoide]

I'm OK with fel rush in the rotation. I'm not OK with a playstyle that used camera turn on vengeful retreat into a mob hitbox just to maximize momentum uptime.

Take Bloodlet (which is the highest damage talent in that tier anyway) and Master of the Glaive. After you Vengeful Retreat out, toss a glaive while running back in.

There are quite a few people in the thread complaining about Momentum forcing repositioning. It doesn't. You need to use Fel Rush every 10 seconds WITHOUT taking momentum too. DHs must constantly reposition or lose 18-20% of total performance.

If you don't want to reposition rotationally, do not change mains to a DH.

[psyquest]

The strongest part about Momentum is that you can couple it with high fury moments where you dump (Eye Beam, 3x Chaos Strikes, Bloodlet, Fury of the Illidari) w

there is just so much you can dump during one momentum buff.

with pvp gear at 110, it is one eye beam or 1 bloodlet 2 chaos strike or 3 chaos strikes

You can confirm, but one need to be precise.

[Deleted]

That same "no cd to maintain a buff" usage that will make it so i cannot use my movement abilites for the purpose they even exists, which is to make me move faster out of potential dangers, allowing me more uptime on my target compared to other melee classes.

I think you misunderstand something because it's the other way around. Fel Rush is a damage spell, that also makes you move to a different location. It's useage was displayed in the very first spell showcase video at gamescom in 2015! It does way too much damage to consider the damage component secondary...

[psyquest]

I think you misunderstand something because it's the other way around. Fel Rush is a damage spell, that also makes you move to a different location. It's useage was displayed in the very first spell showcase video at gamescom in 2015! It does way too much damage to consider the damage component secondary...

indeed and the more adds the better. quite amazing spell.

[Enitzu]

It's not reasonable that the highest performing spec (that is high enough to render the other choices bad) requires this sort of "difference" in gameplay. Very few people are saying momentum shouldn't be a thing; most are saying it shouldn't be the ONLY thing. It is, after all, one talent out of three. It is not a core mechanic of demon hunters, it is an option.

I don't think you understand the state of DH currently. Right now, there is nothing saying go this or be at a disadvantage. Even running Dblades and Nem you will still be competitive. Both specs of play are close enough now to be justified. The only difference is that prepared/momentum is a little ahead. And by a little I mean 10kish which really isn't that big of a deal when we are talking 200-250k total dps. If you are a very top end player then ok I can see the cause for concern. But if you aren't pushing for world 1st (or at least world top 20) then this should make zero difference to you.

[Delekii]

Take Bloodlet (which is the highest damage talent in that tier anyway) and Master of the Glaive. After you Vengeful Retreat out, toss a glaive while running back in.

There are quite a few people in the thread complaining about Momentum forcing repositioning. It doesn't. You need to use Fel Rush every 10 seconds WITHOUT taking momentum too. DHs must constantly reposition or lose 18-20% of total performance.

If you don't want to reposition rotationally, do not change mains to a DH.

There are equally as many, or more, people who are incapable of seeing people complaining about momentum without linking that complaint intrinsically to movement.

You don't need to fel rush every 10 seconds. You need to fel rush twice in any given 20 second window.

Momentum forces this into specific timing intervals:
You can't fel rush back to back within 4 seconds without a dps loss.
You cant fel rush after VR or visa versa within 4 seconds without a dps loss.
You must have a charge up for every use of eye beam.
You must have a charge up for every use of glaive toss.
You must have 3 charges and blur up for metamorphosis.
Holding charges if you do need them for mobility costs _even more_ dps than it already would in the base toolkit.

Without momentum, you can fit your mobility around your dps most of the time; with momentum your dps must fit around your mobility. To reiterate, this is specifically about momentum and not about the basic rotation which also uses fel rush and vr, or even the iterations that might use fel mastery or prepared without momentum if such a thing existed. Without momentum, the cooldowns of each charge of fel rush and VR are unchained from each other and from the rest of the rotation. With momentum, they are not.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't think you understand the state of DH currently. Right now, there is nothing saying go this or be at a disadvantage. Even running Dblades and Nem you will still be competitive. Both specs of play are close enough now to be justified. The only difference is that prepared/momentum is a little ahead. And by a little I mean 10kish which really isn't that big of a deal when we are talking 200-250k total dps. If you are a very top end player then ok I can see the cause for concern. But if you aren't pushing for world 1st (or at least world top 20) then this should make zero difference to you.

10k out of 200k dps is 5% of your damage, and that is a very conservative estimate compared with what sims are saying. There are guilds at every level that are significantly delayed in progression by factors of less than 5%. It is also a much larger dps loss on aoe damage, which constitutes the majority of what will be required in mythic dungeons.

[Wingwraith]

I think you misunderstand something because it's the other way around. Fel Rush is a damage spell, that also makes you move to a different location. It's useage was displayed in the very first spell showcase video at gamescom in 2015! It does way too much damage to consider the damage component secondary...

Alternatively... it's a movement utility spell that happens to have an over-tuned damage component.

[Enitzu]

Does everyone here whining about using FR rotationally(ie: losing movement ability when needed) forget that the havoc mastery increases movement speed?

You will passively have a 30% movement speed increase (likely higher). Losing FR as an "escape button" is not an excuse for the mobility rotation(or yourself) being bad. It's compensated for.

If you are running with 30% mastery then you made some very poor choices in gearing. 20%ish should be the most you have. Crit/Versatility is what you want to focus on. Although at launch that won't be an easy task as very little gear has versatility.

- - - Updated - - -

10k out of 200k dps is 5% of your damage, and that is a very conservative estimate compared with what sims are saying. There are guilds at every level that are significantly delayed in progression by factors of less than 5%. It is also a much larger dps loss on aoe damage, which constitutes the majority of what will be required in mythic dungeons.

If that's the way you feel then you have 2 choices, don't main DH or learn to the play the momentum spec. Just because you don't like the way something plays doesn't mean they should change it for you. I can't stand warlock, so I don't play it. I don't go on forums and ask them to change the shitty specs/abilities that I don't like.

[Delekii]

If that's the way you feel then you have 2 choices, don't main DH or learn to the play the momentum spec.

Incorrect. I have more than 2 choices. I can also go to the forums and make noise until things change to the way I want them to be. Squeaky wheels very frequently get the grease; that is one saying that is vehemently proven over and over.

Just because you don't like the way something plays doesn't mean they should change it for you.

Possibly true, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to try. There is no value in me not trying to change something that I consider shit.

I can't stand warlock, so I don't play it. I don't go on forums and ask them to change the shitty specs/abilities that I don't like.

Why not?

That is the point of feedback, after all.

If I like 95% of a class, I'm not going to give up on the 95% before I try to change the 5%. That would make me a quitter.

[Lucrece]

Maybe you should play the other 10 melee specs that sit still hitting the boss then, just a thought.

Maybe you should get lost and not demand people adhere to your preferences, as if the class somehow solely belonged to you. Just a thought (more like a wish).

Take Bloodlet (which is the highest damage talent in that tier anyway) and Master of the Glaive. After you Vengeful Retreat out, toss a glaive while running back in.

There are quite a few people in the thread complaining about Momentum forcing repositioning. It doesn't. You need to use Fel Rush every 10 seconds WITHOUT taking momentum too. DHs must constantly reposition or lose 18-20% of total performance.

If you don't want to reposition rotationally, do not change mains to a DH.

I don't understand why you people keep bringing up Fel Rush when in that post you quoted, I said Fel Rush was fine.

There is quite a difference with fel rush, which works as intended, taking you to the destination you are facing, and GAMING vengeful retreat's mechanics with a twitch camera turn so as to take the most advantage of VR.

You don't have to instantly camera turn when using fel rush, its hitbox is super forgiving, so you can just dash to the side of a mob and not lose autoattacks or uptime on a mob.

VR has to be gamed AGAINST it's intended purpose of a disengage backwards. It is anything but intuitive gameplay.

[Enitzu]

Incorrect. I have more than 2 choices. I can also go to the forums and make noise until things change to the way I want them to be. Squeaky wheels very frequently get the grease; that is one saying that is vehemently proven over and over.

Possibly true, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to try. There is no value in me not trying to change something that I consider shit.



Why not?

That is the point of feedback, after all.

If I like 95% of a class, I'm not going to give up on the 95% before I try to change the 5%. That would make me a quitter.

Thank you. For being the reason I never go to the main forums. Whinny people crying because things are not 100% for them.

Don't get me wrong I am pretty sure they will hit momentum at some point as it's not the spec they anticipated being popular but the fact that at least 1 spec in this game still requires skill to be good at is a good thing. This game has been dumbed down so much over the years that you can now play every spec using clcRet which is completely stupid. That is all courtesy of whinners like you. So thanks for making the game so easy I can watch American Horror Story while raiding!

[Delekii]

Thank you. For being the reason I never go to the main forums. Whinny people crying because things are not 100% for them.

Don't get me wrong I am pretty sure they will hit momentum at some point as it's not the spec they anticipated being popular but the fact that at least 1 spec in this game still requires skill to be good at is a good thing. This game has been dumbed down so much over the years that you can now play every spec using clcRet which is completely stupid. That is all courtesy of whinners like you. So thanks for making the game so easy I can watch American Horror Story while raiding!

Psst: The game has always been easy and could always be played with clcret. It has never, ever been as easy as it was in vanilla from a class mechanics point of view, and that remains true into legion. Comments like this make you look silly.

Furthermore, there is absolutely nothing hard about momentum gameplay. It isn't difficulty that makes me not want to play it; it's awkwardness. It's a similar reason to why rune of power is such a stupidly hated talent; it has nothing to do with how difficult it is to play (which is to say: not at all).

[Enitzu]

There is quite a difference with fel rush, which works as intended, taking you to the destination you are facing, and GAMING vengeful retreat's mechanics with a twitch camera turn so as to take the most advantage of VR.

You don't have to instantly camera turn when using fel rush, its hitbox is super forgiving, so you can just dash to the side of a mob and not lose autoattacks or uptime on a mob.

VR has to be gamed AGAINST it's intended purpose of a disengage backwards. It is anything but intuitive gameplay.

You do know that you don't have to run prepared right? Like again, Dblades/Nem is close enough in dps that the only real time you will see a difference is a) someone is very good at momentum and can keep 70% or better uptime or b) AoE. All the hate on FR, VR, and momentum is currently unjustified. Now if they nerf Dblades anymore or Nemesis then sure you have a reason to gripe but currently the specs are both viable.

In other words, you don't HAVE to use VR at all if you don't want to. That is your choice. Because I am 99% sure that not of one of you wishing for changes are in a top 50 guild so the ~10k dps loss will not affect you.